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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 28, 2011 14:43:47 GMT -5
...I'll have to think about the sheep/wolf analogy some more myself... I just picked it as the quick opposite of "sheep" and was thinking more on comparing the "pack mentality" vs. the "herd mentality," and, incidentally, I've considered liberals to be more predetorial than conservatives... yes, will have to think on that...
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Feb 28, 2011 15:30:11 GMT -5
The, "pack mentality" vs. the "herd mentality," is a good way to delineate the wolf/sheep duality. My thought is that the wolf acts overtly to improve his situation whereas the sheep acts defensively for protection, one driven by hope of accomplishment the other driven by fear. Either action is justified under appropriate circumstances.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 28, 2011 16:55:06 GMT -5
The, "pack mentality" vs. the "herd mentality," is a good way to delineate the wolf/sheep duality. My thought is that the wolf acts overtly to improve his situation whereas the sheep acts defensively for protection, one driven by hope of accomplishment the other driven by fear. Either action is justified under appropriate circumstances. Both animals "understand" that its best chance of survival is cooperating with its pack or herd. Natural attributes of each dictates that the behavior is different for each of the two animals. What are the natural attributes of human beings and what behavior for survival flows from them? (Or does it matter any longer with the abstraction of human existence from a natural state?) Who is, and is not, a member of the herd or pack? It it your blood family? Church congregation? Your religion? Your community? City? State? Nation? All of humanity? Answers to questions such as these are at the root of why one would identify as a "conservative" or "liberal". A consistency of supporting beliefs to policy might be considered a good thing. For example, If one considers their tribe to their blood family, what would be the appropriate response to legalized abortion? Does it increase or decrease the survival of your herd? If one considers their tribe all of humanity, would that change the appropriate response to legalized abortion?
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Feb 28, 2011 22:28:52 GMT -5
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Feb 28, 2011 22:46:13 GMT -5
People are neither wolves nor sheep, but they do sometimes behave like them. The difference is that people have a choice as to how they will behave. The level of "understanding of wolves and sheep is different from the "understanding" of humans. It should be pointed out that sheep behave like sheep because they are sheep and wolves behave like wolves because they are wolves. There is nothing wrong with that. That's how they were created. It serves their interests well. People, on the other hand, are capable of making their own decisions and their behavior is not determined by innate determinants or instincts. If too many people behave like sheep, it has the same effect as if there were too many sheep for the environment to support. Wolves are predators and too many people behaving like wolves would, essentially, create anarchy. Sheep will always be preyed upon. In the wild, wolves eat them. Domesticated, people eat them. Truth is that "conservatives" [wolves] don't prey on "sheep" so much as "liberals" do. The sheep are unwitting pawns who are led to, if not the slaughter, then to serve the purposes of their masters. Sheep seek someone to follow and they provide wool and mutton for those who exploit them ~ wolves just eat them.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 0:49:36 GMT -5
So are the "liberals" sheep if they prey on ....the "sheep"? Seems to me that we are talking about competing packs of wolves.
Sheep aren't stupid. They work to empower those who only exploit them instead of those who eat them.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 1, 2011 0:57:22 GMT -5
...sheep are stupid... ...I also think we could find a more clever and accurate metaphor to aid the discussion, imo... ...and I own up to introducing the wolf into this thread... ETA: ...I also think more consideration should be given to the ills of the progressive movement where it has helped to emasculate the entrepreneurial spirit through entitlement programs... progressives are not solely to blame... definitely not... (e.g. modern conservatism, while weakened by outside forces, certainly hasn't protected its turf and propagated its people) ...but I wonder if the collateral damage is not greater from their exit wounds as opposed to what conservative bullets beget... ...and boy, is it hard to avoid "guns and ammo" terms in today's vernacular!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 9:13:30 GMT -5
I would retreat from the conservatives as wolves metaphor also. Quickly
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 1, 2011 11:29:38 GMT -5
I would retreat from the conservatives as wolves metaphor also. Quickly Why? It's good to be closer to the top of the food chain and able to rely on fellow wolves to provide for our own needs as a team rather than rely on "the man" for protection and sustenance.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 11:34:48 GMT -5
I would retreat from the conservatives as wolves metaphor also. Quickly Why? It's good to be closer to the top of the food chain and able to rely on fellow wolves to provide for our own needs as a team rather than rely on "the man" for protection and sustenance. Did you watch the video in reply #89 in which it talks about the wolf hunting strategy which is to get prey to run and then pounce on the old, sick, or merely unfortunate?
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 1, 2011 14:03:35 GMT -5
"So are the "liberals" sheep if they prey on ....the "sheep"?" Actually they aren't. "Liberals" actually exploit the "sheep" as "useful idiots" [or worse].
"Seems to me that we are talking about competing packs of wolves." Pretty much.
"Sheep aren't stupid. They work to empower those who only exploit them instead of those who eat them." Where do you think mutton comes from?
The wolves/sheep analogy only works so far. "Conservatives" are not covered with fur and don't survive the winter eating mice. Liberals aren't covered with wool, but do respond blindly to their master's commands ~ or the sheep dogs are called out. Sometimes the masters don't even bother with commands, but rely entirely on the trained dogs [community organizers]. Pointing out discrepancies in analogies doesn't advance any argument other than that no analogy is perfect.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 1, 2011 15:23:29 GMT -5
...yeah, I'm definitely overdue on getting my "I safeharbor" t-shirt...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 15:47:48 GMT -5
... The wolves/sheep analogy only works so far. "Conservatives" are not covered with fur and don't survive the winter eating mice. Liberals aren't covered with wool, but do respond blindly to their masters commands ~ or the sheep dogs are called out. Sometimes the masters don't even bother with commands, but rely entirely on the trained dogs [community organizers]. Pointing out discrepancies in analogies doesn't advance any argument other than that no analogy is perfect. I pointed out the discrepancies so I wouldn't have to listen to this bullshit being repeated ad nauseam. Liberals pursue their own self interest in the same way that conservatives do. Wolf/sheep is more about an individual's pschological make-up and cuts across ideological lines.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 1, 2011 16:27:04 GMT -5
Here we're getting into a different question. According to the theory of "Enlightened Self Interest," [to my understanding] each person behaves in the way that appears in his/her own self interest. The problem here could be expressed as the example of the herd animal that gets "cut from the herd" by a pack of predators. Is the herd animal who "makes a run for it." actually acting in his/her own self interest or are the predators using the herd animal's ignorance to obtain their meal? From an earlier quote, "Do individuals have the right to pursue their own happiness, as Thomas Jefferson thought and as the Declaration of Independence deemed self-evident? Or do we have an obligation to live our lives for the community or the state, as most societies have claimed throughout most of history?" That is essentially the difference between modern conservatism and modern liberalism. There are legitimate arguments on either side of the question, but I've observed that "liberals" usually don't bother with legitimate arguments, but stoop immediately to spurious allegations, personal attacks and emotionally charged [or simply emotional] arguments. I wonder why?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2011 16:41:03 GMT -5
...yeah, I'm definitely overdue on getting my "I safeharbor" t-shirt... Yeah, he keeps stealing my exalts, too!!
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 1, 2011 17:06:25 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 18:51:47 GMT -5
Here we're getting into a different question. According to the theory of "Enlightened Self Interest," [to my understanding] each person behaves in the way that appears in his/her own self interest. The problem here could be expressed as the example of the herd animal that gets "cut from the herd" by a pack of predators. Is the herd animal who "makes a run for it." actually acting in his/her own self interest or are the predators using the herd animal's ignorance to obtain their meal? I would go back a step and ask for an example of what situation are you considering to be the eqivalent of the human herd animal making a "run for it"? I do not see that taking place in the human world. I do see individuals joining with other human beings because it is in their own self interest to do so. You may feel that individuals make "wrong" choices (which of course is you pursuing your own self interest). How does each individual achieve a state of "happiness"? Is it an "obligation" or a "choice" to serve the community? Is one "free" or "forced" to meet all of their individual needs without community assistance? "Do individuals have the right to pursue their own happiness" only if they do so in the way that you pursue your own happiness? Interesting that you felt the need to include this.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 1, 2011 19:18:45 GMT -5
I still don't see any substantive argument on this thread from the left side. Let's take your response to the previous post:
1] How does each individual achieve a state of "happiness"? A] In a free society, anyway he chooses that doesn't violate the rights of others. 2] Is it an "obligation" or a "choice" to serve the community? A] Ideally, it is a "choice." It only becomes an "obligation" in response to services provided by the community. It is not obligatory to accept assistance from the community. The problem arises when the "community" rule becomes so onerous that it, in effect, requires the individual to seek assistance. 3] Is one "free" or "forced" to meet all of their individual needs without community assistance? A] One is "free" if one is not "forced." It's a "Nice to Have" if the community offers assistance and is generally desirable [imho], but when one is "forced" to accept assistance, one cannot be free. 4] "Do individuals have the right to pursue their own happiness" only if they do so in the way that you pursue your own happiness? A] Of course they have a right to pursue their own happiness, including joining a labor union. It is when they begin to use collective action [or anything else] to inhibit the corresponding rights of others. Freedom is the "right." One is free to exercise all "rights" until the exercise interferes with the exercise of "rights" by others. You can ask easily answered questions to your hearts content, but it is not my responsibility to use my valuable time to answer each and every one of them. What would make an interesting discussion is if you [or others] contributed some thoughts of your own [or the thoughts of others that you think would be educational].
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 19:41:13 GMT -5
...I still don't see any substantive argument on this thread from the left side. ...... Bummer. I am sorry you missed the point of the "questions". I would encourage you to go back and see how they played off your statements. Hopefully you will stop feeling the need to provide "answers" long enough to understand the questions.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 1, 2011 19:50:11 GMT -5
If I don't understand the questions, please enlighten me. If on the other hand, it's just more nit-picking, please spare me. Conversing with some is like a discussion with a small child who, not being ready to understand, continually asks, "Why." "Why." "Why." It's like they say, trying to teach a pig to sing. You won't be successful and it just irritates the pig.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 1, 2011 19:59:10 GMT -5
If I don't understand the questions, please enlighten me. If on the other hand, it's just more nit-picking, please spare me. Conversing with some is like a discussion with a small child who, not being ready to understand, continually asks, "Why." "Why." "Why." It's like they say, trying to teach a pig to sing. You won't be successful and it just irritates the pig. Safeharbor ..... Or wrestling with pigs, you only get dirty and pigs love it....and will now follow you around ad infinitum...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 20:33:45 GMT -5
...quote] ....and will now follow you around ad infinitum...P.I. Welcome to the thread. We have been having a good discussion here.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 20:36:59 GMT -5
If I don't understand the questions, please enlighten me. If on the other hand, it's just more nit-picking, please spare me. Conversing with some is like a discussion with a small child who, not being ready to understand, continually asks, "Why." "Why." "Why." It's like they say, trying to teach a pig to sing. You won't be successful and it just irritates the pig. The Empty Tea Cup A Japanese Zen master received a professor who came inquiring about Zen. It was obvious to the master from the start of the conversation that the professor was not so much interested in learning about Zen as he was impressing the master with his own opinions and knowledge. The master listened patiently. He finally suggested they have tea. The master began to fill the visitor's tea cup until it was full and then continued to pour. The tea flowing over the lip of the cup filling the saucer and the over onto the tea tray. The professor watched the overflowing tea cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "The cup is full! No more will go in!," he said. "Like this cup," the master said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 1, 2011 20:54:45 GMT -5
<<<I would go back a step and ask for an example of what situation are you considering to be the eqivalent of the human herd animal making a "run for it"? I do not see that taking place in the human world. I do see individuals joining with other human beings because it is in their own self interest to do so.>>> ...imo, plenty of people branch out and follow the beat of their own drum... sometimes for a time... sometimes for the duration... I'd think any example of one who "makes a run for it" wouldn't explain why they lean one direction or the other on the political spectrum... the correlation would be too shaky, imo... how you'd like to see the village managed back on the home front while you're wandering in your wilderness doesn't have to be synched... you know?
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 1, 2011 22:07:31 GMT -5
I see I failed to answer this question ~ so ~ here I go poring tea all over the table again: Child predators, inmate gangs and street thugs use this technique [as well as salesmen]. The idea is to intimidate someone while they are in a safe position so that, through fear, they bolt into a vulnerable position. Street thugs for example will try to intimidate someone in a lighted area or one where others are observing ~ when the "mark" makes a run for it there are thugs waiting in a dark alley where no help is available and they can have their way with the sucker. The idea is to isolate the victim and make him vulnerable. Sometimes feigned friendship or promise of some illicit gain or pleasure is used in place of intimidation. You don't know what you've missed until you've been "cut from the herd." A piece of the lyric for Kristofferson's "Yellow is the Color of My True Love's Hair," ~ "Freedom is a word I rarely use........without thinking........of the times........ when I been lost." You have to have been there to identify.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2011 22:20:23 GMT -5
Damn!! I just spent my exalt!! But-- there are so many awesome people here how can I know what is coming up next??
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 22:28:04 GMT -5
I see I failed to answer this question ~ so ~ here I go poring tea all over the table again: Child predators, inmate gangs and street thugs use this technique [as well as salesmen]. The idea is to intimidate someone while they are in a safe position so that, through fear, they bolt into a vulnerable position. Street thugs for example will try to intimidate someone in a lighted area or one where others are observing ~ when the "mark" makes a run for it there are thugs waiting in a dark alley where no help is available and they can have their way with the sucker. The idea is to isolate the victim and make him vulnerable. Sometimes feigned friendship or promise of some illicit gain or pleasure is used in place of intimidation. You don't know what you've missed until you've been "cut from the herd." You fell back only half a step. In the analogy, the pack gets the herd running prior to cutting out the sick, old, or unfortunate. When is the pack running?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 1, 2011 22:29:54 GMT -5
...nit, pick pick... nit, pick pick... nit, pick pick pick pick pick pick, pick pick... (...anybody remember that Butterball turkey commercial? great campaign...) ETA: ...whoops - it was Perdue! still classic... and gotta love youtube... ;D
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2011 22:32:05 GMT -5
...nit, pick pick... nit, pick pick... nit, pick pick pick pick pick pick, pick pick... (...anybody remember that Butterball turkey commercial? great campaign...) Still thinking about this stupid ass analogy you introduced?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 1, 2011 22:35:09 GMT -5
...ahem... taste any soap lately... you should... ...and I already addressed why I picked a wolf as a quick alternate to an earlier introduced sheep analogy... so chillax, dude...
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