Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 17, 2014 21:42:43 GMT -5
And to actually answer cawiau's question... For some strange reason, DW and I have debated who would get to be the "Disney parent" if we had a kid then divorced. I'm projecting my childhood disillusionment onto this statement, so please don't take this personally. My mother, when I was 14ish, told me that she knew she and my dad would never split up, but why wouldn't any parent choose the "every other weekend" status because goodness know that would be easier. I didnt like like it at the time and ignore it, but then they separated a year later. They ended up staying together, but it made that time even more unbearable to know my mother didn't "Want" us. It's one of the links in the sequence that makes our relationship very broken. I guess my point is, please don't have that conversation in front of your future children.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 18, 2014 0:15:27 GMT -5
...:::"If he denies cheating, then why is he denying her access to his phone? What has he got to hide, when something so easy to do would show her that he's NOT cheating?":::...
I think that this is one of the most dangerous viewpoints out there. What, if someone doesn't want every facet of his/her life probed, then he must be hiding something and should be investigated thoroughly? And what if she goes through every bit of data in his phone and finds nothing? OH well... he must be hiding it somewhere else. How about his e-mail? No? Work e-mail? No... Where then? How about we have him followed?
Look I'm not saying he is or isn't guilty. I just do not like the idea that if someone MUST be guilty if he/she doesn't turn totally transparent.
It depends upon whose viewpoint you are looking at. The gut is an incredibly powerful instrument, and sadly is frequently correct (BTDT). Transparency is one way of attempting to alleviate this, and locking down his phone does not look good, especially if it became locked after he accused him of infidelity.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 18, 2014 3:52:58 GMT -5
...no... no... very...
...no/yes...
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truthbound
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Post by truthbound on May 18, 2014 4:21:27 GMT -5
Would you work harder at your marriage because you have kids? Would you stay married because you have kids? How important would the kids well being be to your decision making? Once you have kids you don't get divorced. That aside they will eventually leave. At least until it is time to you in a home and take your stuff (They come back real fast for that). Their relevance to decision making goes as far as making sure they stay alive until they are 18. Outside of that all your focus would be on your spouse. They were there before the kids came and the one there after they leave.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on May 18, 2014 5:16:46 GMT -5
Really? So my mom has been legally separated for 20 years because she didn't want to see his face during the divorce proceedings,but she can just file? What about ny? Forced divorce sounds less romantic. She doesn't have to see his face. I filed, 90 days later, I was divorced. Never saw him once. No divorce is "romantic".
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achelois
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Post by achelois on May 18, 2014 5:25:11 GMT -5
...:::"If he denies cheating, then why is he denying her access to his phone? What has he got to hide, when something so easy to do would show her that he's NOT cheating?":::...I think that this is one of the most dangerous viewpoints out there. What, if someone doesn't want every facet of his/her life probed, then he must be hiding something and should be investigated thoroughly? And what if she goes through every bit of data in his phone and finds nothing? OH well... he must be hiding it somewhere else. How about his e-mail? No? Work e-mail? No... Where then? How about we have him followed?Look I'm not saying he is or isn't guilty. I just do not like the idea that if someone MUST be guilty if he/she doesn't turn totally transparent.It depends upon whose viewpoint you are looking at. The gut is an incredibly powerful instrument, and sadly is frequently correct (BTDT). Transparency is one way of attempting to alleviate this, and locking down his phone does not look good, especially if it became locked after he accused him of infidelity. Usually if one suspects the other of cheating, they have grounds for the suspicion. The gut IS powerful. Also BTDT. The only time I think the one spouse may have a baseless accusation is when the one spouse is doing the cheating and accusing the other noncheating spouse to deflect suspicion or as projection to justify his or her own actions.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on May 18, 2014 9:49:48 GMT -5
I have no idea... i don't have kids. I don't plan on having kids, so I can't tell you what I'd do. But if DH and I were having problems, I would work to keep the marriage together if he was willing to work. I would think that my deal breakers in marriage would exist, with or without children.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 18, 2014 20:49:48 GMT -5
As for the cheating and what not, cheaters are not known, generally, for being honest when confronted. Even if they are, they do something called "trickle truth", which is where you give drips and drabs of the affair when they feel like it. No joke.
There's a morning radio show that does a regular feature where they set a trap for a cheater. If a spouse/SO thinks they're being cheated on, they can call up the show and the show will do a couple of different ploys to see if the cheater takes the bait. It's usually something like offering free romantic roses and asking who the potential cheater would like them delivered to or pretending to be a quality control rep for a hotel or restaurant that the potential cheater just went to and asking questions about the stay/meal to see if he was with someone. When these cheaters are caught red handed on the show, 9 out of 10 of them still deny the cheating or try to spin things.
"Yeah, I know I just ordered roses to be sent to Jane, but she's just a friend!" "Um, yes, Shaniqua and I shared that hotel room but it was completely work related." "What? I didn't ask them to send roses to Debbie! That's crazy, baby - I was saying to send them to you - Jennifer - you must have misheard me."
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 21:17:08 GMT -5
For those of you who have BTDT, know that I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings. I am simply stating that I believe the "if he didn't have anything to hide, he wouldn't resist" logic is extremely dangerous. Its a very slippery slope. OK lets say he gives her access to the phone; and she doesn't find what she wanted to find. She's already committed to her conclusion, which means any evidence to the contrary must be fabricated. So either he's hidden it well, or its in his e-mail. So now she wants access to his e-mail; except its not there either. Now what... keystroke recorder? Nothing still? Must be using another computer or another phone... lets start following him... If he isn't already cheating, it won't be long before he figures out that he might as well, since he's guilty no matter what. How about instead they channel some of that energy into some kind of effort towards understanding and meeting each others needs? I really feel the "she feels she HAS to act like his mother" statement is powerful. TheHaitian was this the relative who complained about the wife who was never in the mood, but he NEVER helped cook, clean, change the baby, or do any errands?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on May 18, 2014 23:59:54 GMT -5
Yes and no. From C's previous posts, it sounds like cheating is pretty common in his circle of friends. And since pregnancy can be a scary, hormonal time for a woman, there is something to be said for humoring the pregnant lady. It almost sounds like the husband didn't want the wife to get pregnant. If a guy is feeling all neglected with one kid, then no good can come from adding another one to the mix.
As for C's original posts, after having kids, the decision on whether to work on your marriage or cut and run really boils down to what is in the best interests of the kids. For example, I think we can all agree that staying with an abuser or addict 'for the sake of the children' is a bad idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 7:06:00 GMT -5
First: I said that in my culture aka Haitian it is not something you see people divorce over or make a big deal out of vs American Culture. I did not say it was rampant just more socially acceptable I guess. We are like the "French", we won't crucify a politician or actor for cheating on their spouse, it is considered a personal matter and that is where it stays. If the wife or husband stay, no one will judge them or bat an eye or act shocked. Circle of friends : totally different since it is a melting pot. Brother: I don't know if he is cheating or not and I did not ask. Me: my phone is also locked and it annoys me when my wife goes through it so I changed the password. It is not that I have anything to hide just that I respect my privacy... I don't think twice about handing over my phone if she needs to use it but going through my texts/emails and asking questions just annoys the hell out of me. So now she cannot just pick up my phone and be a nosy buddy. If that makes me a cheater... Same way I cannot use the bathroom (#2) with someone else in there while she always want to have a conversation with me as in be in the bathroom with me while I am using it. Still annoys me and I always go: can it wait I need to go. She still doesn't understand why I am not comfortable with it, I'm just not call me weird. Same when I get annoyed when she is using the bathroom and leaves the door wide open... No I do not need to see you going same way I don't care for you to see me going. I am married but I still like to maintain some privacy. As for them I say they are young and stupid; being broke and pregnant doesn't it help it either. When she told my wife how my brother wasn't like me and she wished she had our marriage we just laughed our ass off. And I explained to her: it took 11 years and 6 years marriage to get us where we are and we still are a work in progress. Marriage is not easy so please don't be fooled because we are the types to leave our problems at home when we leave the house. We will go to a party and smile/laugh with the best of them while still being extremely pissed at each other. We've had our share of problems/issues and I am sure there is many more to come. Our marriage is not perfect... My mom sat down with them last night and it seems they will give counseling a go. But by their attitude she thinks they will both Half ass it and end up divorce anyway. We agreed we would keep my sister in law and the kids in the divorce, my brother can find a new family
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 7:51:45 GMT -5
Oh well... Marriage counseling was scheduled for today at 1 PM but that is out of the window now.
She kicked my brother out this morning and called me of all people crying that she had proof he was cheating on her. Now I am on the phone trying to calm a pregnant hysterical lady.
My brother is a jack ass... Case closed!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 19, 2014 7:52:46 GMT -5
Your family is interesting. How did you manage some semblance of normalcy?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 7:58:33 GMT -5
Would you work harder at your marriage because you have kids? Would you stay married because you have kids? How important would the kids well being be to your decision making? Yes. No. Your marriage is the example how marriage works to your kids. I would rather have them learn that if something isn't "working" you should reevaluate it over staying in a bad situation for any reason. I also don't want them to define love and marriage as two people cohabitating while hurling veiled insults under their breath. Because I can picture myself doing just that if I had to live with someone I do not care for. Very.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 19, 2014 8:02:51 GMT -5
I was thinking more about this.
The issues of privacy, secrecy, and boundaries are interesting in a relationship.
I think, of course privacy is important in a relationship. But, that privacy can also be abused, used to hide secrets. And I think we can all agree that generally, it isn't good to have have secrets that can potential to destroy a marriage.
What if this C's SIL had said "I'm noticing that my husband is not acting in a trustworthy manner. His behavior suggests that he may be keeping secrets." Would we all say "Oh, behaving like one is keeping secrets is totally OK. You are just having a boundary of no secrets that affect you in your marriage because your husband isn't doing the dishes enough and hasn't changed enough diapers. If he does the dishes, I'm betting you'll be ok with him keeping secrets."
Boundaries are also interesting. When someone is engaged in behavior that destroys a marriage rather than promoting it, and the other partner has boundaries about the behavior, boundaries are often perceived as a method of control.
When the truth about my husband's addiction came out, I asked that he delete a computer program that he was using as part of his acting out. My husband thought I was controlling him when I asked him to do so.
Sometimes you will see cheating spouses that don't like it when the other spouse says "you need to be accountable of your whereabouts." The cheating spouse will insist they are being controlled by the other spouse. I think, though, for most marriages, knowing generally where your spouse is and knowing when they will return home generally is just common courtesy.
Now, this all of course assumes that everyone is mentally healthy. I'll give you that sometimes folks have warped ideas of what privacy, secrecy, and boundaries are. I grew up in a household where privacy was equated with secrecy. And therefore, there was no privacy, even in a physical context. In my house it was totally appropriate to expect my mom to come in when I was bathing, no matter what the age. To protest would mean you were hiding something. I was expected to share all my thoughts with my mom. Again, not sharing meant I was hiding something. I think, though, my experience is the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.
ETA: I've also noticed the more emotional intimacy there is in my marriage, the less apt I am to care about the privacy vs. secrecy issues. I'm not sure that having emotional intimacy automatically means that one's emotional needs are being met. My husband and I have an emotionally intimate marriage, and more often then not, one or both of us is going without all our needs being met.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2014 8:08:41 GMT -5
Would you work harder at your marriage because you have kids?
Would you stay married because you have kids?
How important would the kids well being be to your decision making?
Yes we work harder. We have to, as my therapist said having a kid is like setting off a landmine in your living room. And there are only so many hours in a day to work with so we find ourselves needing to make sure we carve time out to focus on ourselves and address any problems that arise.
My marriage comes first because I believe stable/happy marriage = stable/happy children. So if something's wrong we stop to fix it.
Staying married would depend. Having Gwen did factor heavily into my decision to give DH a second chance after he relapsed. I believed we owed it to her to give our marriage a chance.
That being said if he'd refused to walk over hot coals to prove he was sorry I would have dumped him. His issues are things a child shouldn't have to be exposed to. I've made it clear to him that if he ever relapses again he is GONE. I am no exposing my children to an active addict. That would do far more damage to them than me leaving.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on May 19, 2014 8:08:54 GMT -5
Another one: are pregnant woman more irrational/hormonal than most? That depends on the woman. Some are. Some aren't. I wasn't more irrational or hormonal than normal. I was more mellow, nothing ruffled my feathers while I was pregnant, at least after the first trimester. My analytical thinking was just shut off, however. Normally I'm the one tightly controlling the spending reins and scoffing at all attempts by salespeople to get us to purchase something, but while pregnant you could sell me swampland and I'd think it was a good idea. I definitely think that changes should wait until after the baby is born, and then a bit more, since the newborn sleepless nights are stressful, too.
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quince
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Post by quince on May 19, 2014 8:31:40 GMT -5
Nope, nope, very. I would probably stay in a wreck of a marriage longer WITHOUT kids because the only person being hurt is me and my spouse, and as we are adults with few barriers to exit except for ourselves, that's fine.
ETA: I also agree with WWBG and Cawiau that people get to have privacy, even within a marriage. Neither my husband nor I lock our phones, but our laptops are password protected, and we don't share passwords- When he's on his computer, I even avert my eyes from his e-mail/text messages, because his personal communications are none of my business unless he wants it to be. I do get irritated when he's home late, but that's because I'm anxiety prone and either worry or start panicking when the schedule I have in my head for the day starts to be derailed.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2014 8:39:45 GMT -5
Same way I cannot use the bathroom (#2) with someone else in there while she always want to have a conversation with me as in be in the bathroom with me while I am using itClearly you do not have a real marriage.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 19, 2014 8:47:27 GMT -5
I agree. DH is an absolute model husband/father, but there are still some nights when I look at his sleeping, peaceful face and just want to put a pillow over it I'm sure having a toddler only compounds the stress. Unless he's being physically abusive, engaging in an addiction, or subjecting his wife or child to risk (e.g. STDs, crazy bunny-boiling mistresses), I don't think there's any hurry to divorce. If divorce is truly what they both want, it's not as though it will be impossible to get one later... and at least they knew they gave it a shot while both in their right minds.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on May 19, 2014 9:08:24 GMT -5
When DH and I were having problems years ago I would say I worked harder at fixing our marriage than I would have if we hadn't had kids. I don't know if that's a good attitude to have had or not. Watching him interact with our son proved to me that he had several redeeming qualities and to give him a chance to prove himself. It was the right decision at the time. The affair has been over for 7 years and our marriage is stronger now than it was pre-affair.
The password on the phone thing bugs me. Because of the affair and DH's addiction he has pretty much no privacy at the house now does he expect any. Any passwords we have on things are family passwords- as in we both know them. This is because A- he has a bad memory and will ask me what the password is and B- we don't have anything that we aren't open and honest about. We share a "cloud" with our iPhones so any contacts he adds automatically get added to my phone anyway. Same with apps, games, music, etc.
I rarely feel the need to look at his phone or his texts. From time to time I will ask him if he is texting back and forth with someone "who are you texting so furiously?" He'll respond with the person's name and turn his phone so I could see if I wanted too. He'll ask me the same thing from time to time. Occasionally my employees with text me questions that have complicated answers so it will seem like I am texting back and forth. Mostly it's part curiosity and partly asking to make conversation. I would never think to say "none of your business" when saying "Zac is texting me his hours for last week and forgot to tell me which jobsites he was on" is just as easy and the truth.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on May 19, 2014 9:47:11 GMT -5
LOL, I have a code on my phone and I would not readily give it to DH.
I put a code on my phone b/c DH changed my Phone settings and I was having trouble using it. It took me some time and a good amount of frustration to get it back the way I wanted it.
My DH just thinks his way is always the best way.
My DH has a code on his phone. So does my DD. I immagine my son does too.
You are supposed to have a code on your phone - it is recommended.
I don't ask to look at DH's phone. If someone knows you are going to look at it they will clean it up. You can make yourself crazy over things that are just normal connections. My DH is a sales person...I used to find business cards with phone numbers on them all the time. I realized a long time ago I was making myself crazy/unhappy/paranoid - go I gave up worrying about it. I don't see it so much anymore...probably b/c communication has changed a lot due to cell phones.
I think recommending counseling is good. I don't get into judging other people's relationships in general but I gotta call my Mom and my sis about my DN's DW's Vegas Bikini picks all over facebook. I was pretty scandalized and then I realized that only her friends were commenting...none of my family has commented at all. I guess I am not alone in being uneasy. Mom told me she missed her 5 year old's dance recital due to the vegas trip.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on May 19, 2014 9:52:22 GMT -5
I check DH's phone all the time. Mostly because he's too lazy to add people to his contact list and wants me to figure out who said what.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2014 9:54:13 GMT -5
DH has all my passwords, but that's because I am bad and use the same three passwords for everything. He's bound to figure it out eventually.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on May 19, 2014 10:06:55 GMT -5
When DH and I were having problems years ago I would say I worked harder at fixing our marriage than I would have if we hadn't had kids. I don't know if that's a good attitude to have had or not. Watching him interact with our son proved to me that he had several redeeming qualities and to give him a chance to prove himself. It was the right decision at the time. The affair has been over for 7 years and our marriage is stronger now than it was pre-affair.
The password on the phone thing bugs me. Because of the affair and DH's addiction he has pretty much no privacy at the house now does he expect any. Any passwords we have on things are family passwords- as in we both know them. This is because A- he has a bad memory and will ask me what the password is and B- we don't have anything that we aren't open and honest about. We share a "cloud" with our iPhones so any contacts he adds automatically get added to my phone anyway. Same with apps, games, music, etc.
I rarely feel the need to look at his phone or his texts. From time to time I will ask him if he is texting back and forth with someone "who are you texting so furiously?" He'll respond with the person's name and turn his phone so I could see if I wanted too. He'll ask me the same thing from time to time. Occasionally my employees with text me questions that have complicated answers so it will seem like I am texting back and forth. Mostly it's part curiosity and partly asking to make conversation. I would never think to say "none of your business" when saying "Zac is texting me his hours for last week and forgot to tell me which jobsites he was on" is just as easy and the truth. LOL, If DH and I shared contacts lists they would be unimmaginable. I have my business contacts in my phone. I have most of my SIL's and some nieces and nephews. I have MY SIL and MY BIL. DH probably has all his brothers, My Brother, My BIL, None of the SIL's and some of the nieces an Nephews but not all. I have his friend's wives which he probably does not have. I could friend my BIL's on FB, but I just don't think I want to go there. Hell, even my DH dosn't have a lot in common with some of his realtives. I admit my DH should be concerned that I just don't care anymore. I get why some people walk away and are not willing to work to fix things. When it is my way or the highway sometimes the highway looks appealing.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 10:27:41 GMT -5
DH has an iphone and I have a windows phone. We're a mixed marriage but we make it work.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 19, 2014 10:30:18 GMT -5
DH has an iphone and I have a windows phone. We're a mixed marriage but we make it work. We have a mixed marriage too. DH has an iphone and I have a droid. We make it work.
But seriously the reason I don't have an iphone is that Apple has been doing too good of the job integrating their devices.
I often get DH's texts coming across my iPad. Since I use my phone extensively for work, it is an ethical violation for a non attorney who is not my employee to have access to my work. Not that he cares what I do.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on May 19, 2014 10:31:07 GMT -5
At the time when we set up our iPhones we wanted to be able to share the music from our iTunes account since we have a pretty extensive playlist. The shared contact list and all that was a side effect we weren't aware of at the time. It's not a big deal. It actually has been pretty beneficial. We work in companion industries and my company hires the company he works for to do work for us. It's not unusual for one of my foreman or the bossman to need the number of one of DH's co-workers. It's handy that I have them. Same goes for him if one of his co-worker's needs one of my guys' phone numbers to set up a schedule he has them.
We don't have all of the same friends but we do have a lot of friends in common and are friends with a lot of couples so this gives us both the husband and the wife's phone number. I have two brothers and a sister and he is an only child so adding my relatives is like 5 extra phone numbers.
Bean- DS has a code on his phone and is always telling us to add codes to our phone. Seems like a pain in the ass to me to have to unlock it all the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 10:32:05 GMT -5
I got the windows phone because I found it easier to get to FB.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 19, 2014 10:48:53 GMT -5
That depends on the woman. Some are. Some aren't. I wasn't more irrational or hormonal than normal. I was more mellow, nothing ruffled my feathers while I was pregnant, at least after the first trimester. My analytical thinking was just shut off, however. Normally I'm the one tightly controlling the spending reins and scoffing at all attempts by salespeople to get us to purchase something, but while pregnant you could sell me swampland and I'd think it was a good idea. That was me, too. Other than the fact that I ate huge volumes of strange stuff, I'm pretty sure that DH would much rather have my pregnant personality 100% of then time than my normal one. I was just fat, happy, relaxed and agreeable. (And horny. ) Both my kids were boys, so I'm guessing that whatever hormones pregnancy or a boy baby share with the mom were hormones that make me a happier person.
Other than the forgetfulness and trouble sleeping near the end, it was all pretty good.
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