Decided to make it a topic- outrage- 93yo woman shot by cop

[OldCoyote]

The first thing a SWAT does is clear and secure the area,  Then just wait,  It gives the person time to calm down and think about their position.

Many of the Police today are just going to shoot and let someone else sort these out.

If you don't think so just go to policeone.com and read the comments.  Now that I said that I can't get in, they must have changed something.



 

[The Captain]

May 13, 2014 7:30:08 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 13, 2014 7:12:30 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Tennesseer

no i didn't.  We have stories here everyweek of children being shot while sleeping in their bed or inside their house.  

How would you propose that one (or two) cops go house to house to ensure everyone in the area is adequately protected?  How long will that take do you think?  Would you be willing to run from house to house while some crazy old lady waves her gun around refusing orders?

There's a treat to public safety, you remove that threat as quickly as possible before someone gets hurt or worse.

Children shot ìn their beds or in their homes are usually the result of drive-by or street brawl shootings. That is usually the case in the Chicago area as it is here in the Memphis area. But this was not a drive-by or brawl shooting, was it.

I would imagine police sirens alerted her neighbors that something was up.  And then there are police bull horns to verbally warn neighbors to stay inside and stay low..  

But then I was not on the actual scene and neither were you.  So based upon reported information, we have different views as to how the event should have been handles.

In such cases I will alway defer to the judgement of those who've actually had training in this area and were present, rather than try to armchair second-guess them. If a review of their peers who also have training and knowledge of the protocols in these cases disagree with their actions then I would defer to them as well.

Also, remember this case?  I'm sure the officer did. Being old does not get you a pass.

www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shoot-armed-man-queens-apartment-nypd-article-1.1754362

[Tennesseer]

May 13, 2014 8:02:49 GMT -5 The Captain said:

May 13, 2014 7:30:08 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Children shot ìn their beds or in their homes are usually the result of drive-by or street brawl shootings. That is usually the case in the Chicago area as it is here in the Memphis area. But this was not a drive-by or brawl shooting, was it.

I would imagine police sirens alerted her neighbors that something was up.  And then there are police bull horns to verbally warn neighbors to stay inside and stay low..  

But then I was not on the actual scene and neither were you.  So based upon reported information, we have different views as to how the event should have been handles.

In such cases I will alway defer to the judgement of those who've actually had training in this area and were present, rather than try to armchair second-guess them. If a review of their peers who also have training and knowledge of the protocols in these cases disagree with their actions then I would defer to them as well.

Also, remember this case?  I'm sure the officer did. Being old does not get you a pass.

www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shoot-armed-man-queens-apartment-nypd-article-1.1754362

Post a list of all this officer's training please.  Remember, this is a very small town police force.

[Deleted]

"small town" =/= "untrained"

[EVT1]

May 13, 2014 7:40:38 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

The first thing a SWAT does is clear and secure the area,  Then just wait,  It gives the person time to calm down and think about their position.

Many of the Police today are just going to shoot and let someone else sort these out.

If you don't think so just go to policeone.com and read the comments.  Now that I said that I can't get in, they must have changed something.



 

And when police all jacked up on adrenaline fail to wait for SWAT or listen to their superiors we have this:

miami.cbslocal.com/2014/05/06/police-shooting-frenzy-raises-concerns/

     CBS4 News has learned a total of 23 officers fired a total of at least 377 rounds.

     Bullets were sprayed everywhere. They hit the Volvo, other cars in the lot, fence posts and neighboring businesses. They blasted holes in a townhouse where a 12-year-old dove to the ground for cover and a four month old slept in his crib.

     But Montesano and Valdes weren’t the only ones struck – two Miami Dade police officers were hit as well – caught in the crossfire. One officer was shot in the arm and the second was hit in the arm and grazed in the head. If the bullet had struck just a half an inch to the side the officer would have been killed.

    Two Miami police officers sustained ruptured ear drums from the cacophony of shots.

All this- at a two people in a car that was stuck and could not move- and ended up being unarmed.  Granted the driver shot a cop earlier and had it coming to a point- but damn.  Little loss of control there.

[Tennesseer]

May 13, 2014 19:08:51 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

"small town" =/= "untrained"

Show me the officer's training history.

[Deleted]

May 13, 2014 19:57:36 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 13, 2014 19:08:51 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

"small town" =/= "untrained"

Show me the officer's training history.

I never said I knew/had it.

I was just pointing out the fact that "small town" does NOT equal "untrained". So here's a thought... how about you show us his LACK of training history?

His reaction to this situation was reasonable, so whatever his training was, it was good enough for this situation.

[mmhmm]

May 13, 2014 20:15:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

May 13, 2014 19:57:36 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Show me the officer's training history.

I never said I knew/had it.

I was just pointing out the fact that "small town" does NOT equal "untrained". So here's a thought... how about you show us his LACK of training history?

His reaction to this situation was reasonable, so whatever his training was, it was good enough for this situation.

Maybe not.  He was fired, was he not?  Wasn't he fired by those who should know what his training was, what his background is, and what actually happened?

[Tennesseer]

May 13, 2014 20:15:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

May 13, 2014 19:57:36 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Show me the officer's training history.

I never said I knew/had it.

I was just pointing out the fact that "small town" does NOT equal "untrained". So here's a thought... how about you show us his LACK of training history?

His reaction to this situation was reasonable, so whatever his training was, it was good enough for this situation.

You are the one who is claiming this officer, and other small town police forces, had/have the professional training to handle this type of incident.  Not I.  

But was it really good enough for this situation?  There are many who think it wasn't.  I believe a grand jury will be looking into this shooting ìn the coming months.

[EVT1]

May 13, 2014 20:19:41 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

May 13, 2014 20:15:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I never said I knew/had it.

I was just pointing out the fact that "small town" does NOT equal "untrained". So here's a thought... how about you show us his LACK of training history?

His reaction to this situation was reasonable, so whatever his training was, it was good enough for this situation.

Maybe not.  He was fired, was he not?  Wasn't he fired by those who should know what his training was, what his background is, and what actually happened?

From what I read he was fired by the city council- and before the investigation has finished.  That is unreasonable.  Big lawsuit coming.

Police have shot children with BB guns and were found justified- the gun is the threat not the person holding it- and at the least the man deserves for all of the facts to come in before making a decision.  Hell- they shoot unarmed people on a regular basis and get away with it.  At the very least it should be acknowledged that he may have well acted by the book on this- and if it turns out he didn't- then fire him and charge him.

[mmhmm]

As I said, EVT, maybe not.  We don't have enough information to know, and we don't know what information the council had.  

[EVT1]

Just to add- it was perfectly fine in GA for a man to walk out of his safe house and gun down an unarmed elderly Alzheimer's patient in his back yard- but a police officer dealing with an elderly person who is actually armed should just take their chances and hope they don't get shot or face a public backlash- well the public sucks.  

[EVT1]

May 13, 2014 21:03:00 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

As I said, EVT, maybe not.  We don't have enough information to know, and we don't know what information the council had.  

Well how much can they possible have when the investigation is still going on?  The city council has to get their information from somewhere.   Not like they were roaming the crime scene with magnifying glasses.

They do not even have the basic information yet- it was reported she shot, that she didn't, the testing on the gun is not done, squat.  This is 100% a knee-jerk reaction.  And the worst part of it- again from what I read- the gun she had belonged to her late husband- who was a police officer for the same department!

[Deleted]

May 13, 2014 20:19:41 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

May 13, 2014 20:15:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I never said I knew/had it.

I was just pointing out the fact that "small town" does NOT equal "untrained". So here's a thought... how about you show us his LACK of training history?

His reaction to this situation was reasonable, so whatever his training was, it was good enough for this situation.

Maybe not.  He was fired, was he not?  Wasn't he fired by those who should know what his training was, what his background is, and what actually happened?

His firing could just as easily be due to giving in to public pressure... because a LOT of people apparently don't understand that cops CAN'T take the chance when people wave guns around and ignore "drop it!".

[Deleted]

May 13, 2014 20:29:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 13, 2014 20:15:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I never said I knew/had it.

I was just pointing out the fact that "small town" does NOT equal "untrained". So here's a thought... how about you show us his LACK of training history?

His reaction to this situation was reasonable, so whatever his training was, it was good enough for this situation.

You are the one who is claiming this officer, and other small town police forces, had/have the professional training to handle this type of incident.  Not I.  

But was it really good enough for this situation?  There are many who think it wasn't.  I believe a grand jury will be looking into this shooting ìn the coming months.

Might want to re-read what I wrote.

I never said that. I said "small town" does not equal "untrained".

I do agree that I said his training was sufficient for this incident though... mostly because it was. I do not fault the cop when this could all have been alleviated by the woman dropping her gun when told to... or maybe not even getting it from wherever she kept it, over not getting her way (when she was most definitely in the wrong), in the first place.

[mmhmm]

His firing could have been for any number of reasons, some of which we most assuredly are unaware.  I'm not about to sit here with second/third hand media information and opine as to how things should be.  Maybe that's just me, but I require sufficient information at hand before I'm going to even begin to go that way.  Carry on.

[Tennesseer]

May 13, 2014 21:37:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

May 13, 2014 20:29:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

You are the one who is claiming this officer, and other small town police forces, had/have the professional training to handle this type of incident.  Not I.  

But was it really good enough for this situation?  There are many who think it wasn't.  I believe a grand jury will be looking into this shooting ìn the coming months.

Might want to re-read what I wrote.

I never said that. I said "small town" does not equal "untrained".

I do agree that I said his training was sufficient for this incident though... mostly because it was. I do not fault the cop when this could all have been alleviated by the woman dropping her gun when told to... or maybe not even getting it from wherever she kept it, over not getting her way (when she was most definitely in the wrong), in the first place.

Or the police could have just let her tire out/calm down.

[Deleted]

May 13, 2014 22:32:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 13, 2014 21:37:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Might want to re-read what I wrote.

I never said that. I said "small town" does not equal "untrained".

I do agree that I said his training was sufficient for this incident though... mostly because it was. I do not fault the cop when this could all have been alleviated by the woman dropping her gun when told to... or maybe not even getting it from wherever she kept it, over not getting her way (when she was most definitely in the wrong), in the first place.

Or the police could have just let her tire out/calm down.

Not while she was waving a gun around.

[billisonboard]

May 13, 2014 21:00:05 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

...

From what I read he was fired by the city council- and before the investigation has finished.  That is unreasonable.  Big lawsuit coming.

...

I wonder what the terms of his employment were?  I can be let go because my employer no longer wishes to employ me. 

[EVT1]

May 13, 2014 22:58:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 13, 2014 21:00:05 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

...

From what I read he was fired by the city council- and before the investigation has finished.  That is unreasonable.  Big lawsuit coming.

...

I wonder what the terms of his employment were?  I can be let go because my employer no longer wishes to employ me. 

Good Question. Cops usually have unions though.

[billisonboard]

May 14, 2014 11:23:51 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

May 13, 2014 22:58:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I wonder what the terms of his employment were?  I can be let go because my employer no longer wishes to employ me. 

Good Question. Cops usually have unions though.

The fact they fired the guy the way they did would suggest that he wasn't union. The story I read didn't have a "union rep" comment either which I would expect if he were union.

[zibazinski]

I wonder how much crap the cop would have gotten if innocent people had been shot by her and he was supposed to protect them from her?

[djAdvocate]

May 14, 2014 13:57:08 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I wonder how much crap the cop would have gotten if innocent people had been shot by her and he was supposed to protect them from her?

that is a fair question.

assuming that you didn't mean it to be rhetorical, i think that he would have gotten less hell than by shooting her. 

but there is a third possibility, of course.  and that is by standing down, nothing would have happened.

what do YOU think was most likely, between those two?

[zibazinski]

Got me. If someone waves a gun at me, I shoot. I'm not excused because I'm old, or say HI to people, or have dementia. We have a moderator who says she's a gun owner caring for her mother who has "issues." I'm sure she is responsible enough to keep her gun away from someone who can't judge things safely. Someone didnt do the same for this old lady and now she's dead. I can only speak for one small town in Florida because I know the training or lack of training for situations like this. There's no SWAT team and the training is what they got in police academy. You don't get prepared for every situation that arises but you hope you do your best. A woman died because her family didnt take care of her and a policeman perhaps panicked or whatever, and shot her. This was NOT an unarmed woman just spouting off. It's a tragedy, period.

[zibazinski]

But if that old lady had shot my child while cops stood around mulling over what to do, I'd be royally pissed off.

[EVT1]

May 14, 2014 14:44:35 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 14, 2014 13:57:08 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I wonder how much crap the cop would have gotten if innocent people had been shot by her and he was supposed to protect them from her?

that is a fair question.

assuming that you didn't mean it to be rhetorical, i think that he would have gotten less hell than by shooting her. 

but there is a third possibility, of course.  and that is by standing down, nothing would have happened.

what do YOU think was most likely, between those two?

She probably would have calmed down- but that's not enough. Elderly people shoot police too. The guy was in a situation created by the lady- has her at gunpoint I am sure ordering her to drop it- numerous times I believe- what's he going to do- put his gun down?  At a minimum the investigation should play out before firing him. 

[djAdvocate]

May 14, 2014 16:16:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Got me. If someone waves a gun at me, I shoot. I'm not excused because I'm old, or say HI to people, or have dementia. We have a moderator who says she's a gun owner caring for her mother who has "issues." I'm sure she is responsible enough to keep her gun away from someone who can't judge things safely. Someone didnt do the same for this old lady and now she's dead. I can only speak for one small town in Florida because I know the training or lack of training for situations like this. There's no SWAT team and the training is what they got in police academy. You don't get prepared for every situation that arises but you hope you do your best. A woman died because her family didnt take care of her and a policeman perhaps panicked or whatever, and shot her. This was NOT an unarmed woman just spouting off. It's a tragedy, period.

fair enough.  thanks for answering.