Why do schools refuse to acknowledge science?

[Deleted]

So, I got the call today, I if I want son to participate in Algebra testing next week it is between 7:30 and 9:30.   

Why would they structure an entire curriculum and pedagogy towards the passage of a test, and then administer that test at an hour when brain science on melatonin and circadian rhythms show us that teens are less likely to function optimally?

They could probably up scores just by moving the test to 1000-1200.

[tskeeter]

May 9, 2014 16:58:33 GMT -5 oped said:

So, I got the call today, I if I want son to participate in Algebra testing next week it is between 7:30 and 9:30.   

Why would they structure an entire curriculum and pedagogy towards the passage of a test, and then administer that test at an hour when brain science on melatonin and circadian rhythms show us that teens are less likely to function optimally?

They could probably up scores just by moving the test to 1000-1200.

You make the assumption that the educational process and logic are somehow related.


But, in reality, the timing of the test probably has something to do with when facilities are available or when staff is available to proctor the test. 

[The Captain]

And here I thought we were going to get into another creation vs evolution discussion again

[Deleted]

Lol. Two things drive education. One is lunch. You usually can't count a school day unless you serve lunch. The other is testing. So your time slot probably means that another test is being given . . . you got it! . . . after lunch.

You are welcome to this quick and dirty insider look into education.

ETA: Are they giving this in the LUNCH room? 

[Deleted]

But don't you think it makes absolutely no sense to put that much time and energy into test prep and no thought at all into scheduling? ... I know, I'm looking for logic.

[Nazgul Girl]

May 9, 2014 17:31:45 GMT -5 The Captain said:

And here I thought we were going to get into another creation vs evolution discussion again

   That's what I thought !! 

[The Captain]

I honestly think this is a little silly.  Do we really expect everyone to schedule things so that the best possible outcome can be achieved?  The kids are being measured on their mastery of a subject, everyone is taking the same test at the same time so they are all on equal footing, right?

Should I go tell my boss he can't schedule any meetings before 10am because I haven't had my coffee yet?

[Deleted]

May 9, 2014 17:43:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I honestly think this is a little silly.  Do we really expect everyone to schedule things so that the best possible outcome can be achieved?  The kids are being measured on their mastery of a subject, everyone is taking the same test at the same time so they are all on equal footing, right?

Should I go tell my boss he can't schedule any meetings before 10am because I haven't had my coffee yet?

Why do you assume everyone is taking it at the same time?  We start school at 8:15 so we couldn't start testing until 8:30. There are buses, etc. Our lunches also end at 1:30 (I know because mine is 1:12 - 1:32).

In other words, the testing parameters would be different for our school than other schools.  Each school system determines its schedule. We don't even have the same schedule as our district's other high school. We have three schools on a limited access road. It would be a nightmare if we all tried to do the 8 - 3 thing.

It's not THAT standardized.

[Deleted]

Then why give the test captain? If it doesn't mean anything and you don't care about scores, why set the entire curriculum and pedagogy around passing the test? 

And adults don't generally need to wait till 10. Teenage brains are set about 3 hours off till late teens early 20s when they start to revert back to pre puberty time. It's proven science from all over the globe...

[Deleted]

But anyway, if my workers were most productive / effective under certain parameters, wouldn't I be stupid to ignore that? 

[Deleted]

What time does school usually start at the school?  7:30 is pretty early although they probably aren't starting testing until 8:00.  There are all those demographics to do.  I'm betting the testing is really from 8:00 - 10:00 with them asking you to be there at 7:30 so they can get started on the preliminaries. 

They probably start lunches at 11:00.  That's not a joke.  There is a correlation between lunches and a lot of things schools do.  It has to do with the fact that many of the kids NEED the free/reduced lunch.  The school has to serve it to get the day counted.

[Shooby]

It makes no sense that my HS sons have to be at school by 7:20 and my dd in elementary at 08:40. Should be the other way around based on sleep science.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 9, 2014 17:43:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I honestly think this is a little silly.  Do we really expect everyone to schedule things so that the best possible outcome can be achieved?  The kids are being measured on their mastery of a subject, everyone is taking the same test at the same time so they are all on equal footing, right?

Should I go tell my boss he can't schedule any meetings before 10am because I haven't had my coffee yet?

I tried that once.....only because we had lab meetings at 6 am on Monday morning.  It didn't work, I said it as a joke and the PI wasn't amused.  I just made sure I had sufficient caffeine so I could talk intelligently at that hour.  

Funny thing though, we got more accomplished between 6-7 am than meetings that were 3 hours long in the middle of the day.

[Deleted]

She said 7:30 to run 7:40-9:40. They do go early. 

My kids like to start schoolwork at 10. I'm going to start giving him Melatonin tonight, see if I can trick his body for the next week...

[chiver78]

May 9, 2014 17:58:21 GMT -5 Shooby said:

It makes no sense that my HS sons have to be at school by 7:20 and my dd in elementary at 08:40. Should be the other way around based on sleep science.

AFAIK, this is based more on the idea that older siblings will be home before younger ones in order to watch them before the parents get home. the theory being that the parents would be home in the morning, and the older kids wouldn't be needed.

[Deleted]

And sports...

[The Captain]

May 9, 2014 17:48:34 GMT -5 oped said:

Then why give the test captain? If it doesn't mean anything and you don't care about scores, why set the entire curriculum and pedagogy around passing the test? 

And adults don't generally need to wait till 10. Teenage brains are set about 3 hours off till late teens early 20s when they start to revert back to pre puberty time. It's proven science from all over the globe...

Really?  How did you leap to that amazing conclusion based on my post?

I thought the main goal of an education was to teach a subject, not to train the puppets how to perform the best on an exam.

Isn't that what supposedly gives the US education system a leg up on other countries, we teach our students how to think, not just how to memorize?

[Deleted]

That's giving my kids a leg up. 

But PA is currently shifting to a subject oriented test system... Kids don't pass certain tests by 2017, they do not graduate. I specifically talked to the Bio teacher about how the book I'm using is kicking my ass this year and she said, oh, you aren't trying to do the whole book are you? Just cover the 8 sections on the test.

So. If the tests are soooo important. If curriculum and pedagogy are so centered on good test scores. If graduation is dependent on the scores. WHY ignore the science saying teens are less likely to do well in early morning? 

That is not hyperbole... 

[The Captain]

May 9, 2014 18:01:08 GMT -5 oped said:

She said 7:30 to run 7:40-9:40. They do go early. 

My kids like to start schoolwork at 10. I'm going to start giving him Melatonin tonight, see if I can trick his body for the next week...

Oh, the truth comes out - your son is currently on a schedule that starts at 10.  You think he will be at a disadvantage if that is disrupted.

Shockingly DD get's up at 6am every morning and reviews her work before she gets driven to school by her father.  I didn't know kids were not capable of doing any work before 10 am.  Somehow despite our failures as a proper scientific parents she's managed to pull good grades.

[Shooby]

May 9, 2014 18:01:53 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

May 9, 2014 17:58:21 GMT -5 Shooby said:

It makes no sense that my HS sons have to be at school by 7:20 and my dd in elementary at 08:40. Should be the other way around based on sleep science.

AFAIK, this is based more on the idea that older siblings will be home before younger ones in order to watch them before the parents get home. the theory being that the parents would be home in the morning, and the older kids wouldn't be needed.

[br

Well the result is also a lot of teens out early and unsupervised as well. I can send my elementary kid to after school daycare.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I made up the global science that shows teens produce melatonin on a circadian rhythm three hours later than other age groups... It's all about me. 

I am not required to give the tests. I'm having him do it as formal test taking practice. MY funding and graduation rates aren't tied to the outcomes... I haven't structured my instruction and energies to the test...

[The Captain]

Both my niece and nephew participated in sports and had to be at school at 6am for practice or training.  DD, who's almost 12, is technically not a teen yet but I know many young people who manage to function before 10am.  Some I know even have works study jobs where they work in the am and do the school part in the afternoon.

In college some of the required classes started at 7:30 (they were taught by working professionals).  We had to take notes, listen and test at that time.  I think if we tried to tell the professors our poor grades were due to circadian rhythms they would have laughed us out of the program.

I just don't see it making or breaking a score if the student knows the subject.

[souldoubt]

I look forward to having kids some day just so I can see what other parents choose to complain about. 

[chiver78]

May 9, 2014 18:14:40 GMT -5 Shooby said:

May 9, 2014 18:01:53 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

AFAIK, this is based more on the idea that older siblings will be home before younger ones in order to watch them before the parents get home. the theory being that the parents would be home in the morning, and the older kids wouldn't be needed.

[br

Well the result is also a lot of teens out early and unsupervised as well. I can send my elementary kid to after school daycare.

check the first thing in my post..... I don't have kids, this is what I remember being told when I was in HS and whining about our hours during the years I wanted to sleep in. YMMV.

[The Captain]

I have not once disputed the studies you cite, I just don't where it will make that much of a difference.

Here's a thought - do you know of any studies that tested students in the early am and tested the same control group in the pm?

Were the scores different?

[Deleted]

Obviously, I made it all up!  

Lol. It makes perfect sense to spend all that money and energy and focus on a single outcome and then ignore a simple factor that could negatively impact the outcome you have spent so much preparing for...

[Shooby]

May 9, 2014 18:19:32 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

May 9, 2014 18:14:40 GMT -5 Shooby said:

[br

Well the result is also a lot of teens out early and unsupervised as well. I can send my elementary kid to after school daycare.

check the first thing in my post..... I don't have kids, this is what I remember being told when I was in HS and whining about our hours during the years I wanted to sleep in. YMMV.

I am not arguing with you. Sheesh.

[Cookies Galore]

Meh. School started at 7:20 when I was in high school and the state testing was an all day thing. It's really not a big deal. I've had science and math in the morning. Teens adapt.

[Deleted]

conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/11299/162769/1/Impact%20of%20Later%20Start%20Time%20Final%20Report.pdf

www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/opinion/14kalish.html?_r=0

teensneedsleep.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/edwards-early-to-rise-the-effect-of-daily-start-times-on-academic-performance-published-version.pdf

www.sleepforscience.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/6033aedfc83ddcdaeb659ca3a6b64849/pdf/crowley_et_al_sleep_med_2007.pdf

projectneuron.illinois.edu/sites/default/files/U3_L8_Supplement_CarskadonEtal1998.pdf

[NastyWoman]

May 9, 2014 17:31:45 GMT -5 The Captain said:

And here I thought we were going to get into another creation vs evolution discussion again

And I thought we were going to discuss Wyoming...

www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/08/wyoming-science-standards_n_5290558.html