transcript and grades

[Deleted]

Ugh. I'm still having trouble with this.

Should I grade just based on the test scores? Or 'round up' based on discussion/ participation... etc. To me, a percentage should be based on mastery of content/skills. BUT I KNOW that not everyone grades that way, so what If I consider the 89% average he got on his bio tests as 89% mastery and his grade, but he is being compared to other kids who had homework and notebook and participation, etc. grades and then they get an A or A- ( 4.0-3.7) rather than the B+ (3.3)...

I have observed/evaluated for some parents whose transcripts are like all 97-99%... I think it looks fake. I don't want it to look like I just made stuff up. I want the transcript to be an honest assessment, but then I also don't want him to be held back because I graded 'harder' than other venues might...

How are schools grading these days?  

Is there a qualitative rubric at all for assigning course grades?

Is a 3.48 an ok GPA?

[Regis]

Our school is 90 & up - A, 80-89.99 - B and so on.  Some teachers give extra credit from time to time; others don't.  None of them give points for participation.  Since everything is done by computer, whatever percentage you have, that's your grade so there's no subjection by the teacher.

At our high school a GPA of 3.3 or higher makes a student eligible for National Honor Society.  So a 3.48 GPA would be pretty good and would probably get them into nearly all state universities (depending on the intended major).

[whoisjohngalt]

Well, in every class I took for my graduate program there was a "participation" grade, so it's a very real thing it seems.  Some professors took it more seriously than others, but still....

[Deleted]

I meant more should I give a grade for participation that gets averaged into grade... Ie. 9 test scores and one score for classwork/participation... I didn't mean actually just bump it up a few points, but that is the effect. ...

So... I actually just went back to bio and even if I don't add participation, but just average per quarter and then average the quarters, It brings me to 89.5, which rounds me to the 90 needed for an A-.. unless, I see regis says they go to 89.99... so... man, this just all feels so arbitrary and a little stupid...

[Deleted]

I'm a teacher so I'll chime in. Twenty percent  of my grades are homework/classwork. These are completion grades. I don't accept crap, but I also just eyeball it quickly.  This might be your participation grade. Good students get 100% of this. The other eighty percent is the test average.

I have a school gradebook program that calculates this, but it also easy to set up as an Excel spreadsheet.  I say that not even knowing really how to do calculations in Excel.  I still did it.  It took me longer than most people, though.

If you don't know how to do Excel, there are tons of people on here that can set up a formula for you.

[Phoenix84]

Well, from what I recall from high school (wasn't that long ago) there usually wasn't a qualitative assessment assigned to grades for participation and the like.  Your grade consisted of the homework and the tests or other projects.

3.48 is not a bad GPA, I managed just fine with a 3.2.  I think any homeschool mom who assigns GPA's to their kids is in question.

[Deleted]

Oh, I know Excel! Thank you, I was hoping you would weigh in.

So I'm not out of line then if for each quarter where I have 7-8 test scores, I also add in one 100% score for participation.  

I mean, mine don't have a choice... they work till completion/correction. I DO go over classwork (we don't really have 'homework') and we work until its correct, so it feels like they should get some 'credit' for that... I guess...

On the other hand, I wonder about the idea of As being plentiful. Philosophically speaking, do you think As should be about meeting the class expectations, or about being the 'top' ... You don't have to answer that if you don't want to

[Deleted]

No, A's should be about exceeding the class expectations, but it sounds like he's doing that. The class expectations are the standards themselves. They should be able to do X 7/10 times correctly (C) or 9/10 times correctly (A).

But classwork counts.  The kids he is competing against GPA-wise are getting credit for their classwork/homework. I just wouldn't call it "participation" because that is pretty subjective. He did his classwork 10/10 or whatever times so he get a 100% homework/classwork grade. I would just label it that. 

[Deleted]

Phoenix, it doesn't make me happy to do... but I need a transcript for him for certain things he wants to do going forward and that is how its done. Although, come to think of it, when I was teaching there was also a lot of this subjective quality to grading. I think that, my special ed background, where you measured goals in percentage complete, and my thoughts that education should be about mastery instead of 'hoop jumping'... that make this more difficult.

I do have documentation for most things.

When I meant qualitative for grades, I meant like a rubric that said something like  [ A- , mastered 85-90% of the content/skills, 95+ completion of homework and classwork, answers questions when called upon... etc. ]  I might come up with something like that just for me.

[Deleted]

That sounds good susanna, Thanks. I'll call it classwork.

[The Captain]

oped - you have a degree in education if I recall?  What do they teach as being the most acceptable standard for measurement?

I've always wondered about this ie the grades based on mastery of a subject as opposed to on a bell curve.  Based on recent student teacher conferences and speaking with other parents it appears the trend is grading based on mastery of a subject.  I don't know if giving a kid extra credit for effort is really going to help them in life it they haven't learned the subject matter?

[Deleted]

I agree with a mastery approach. And I have read that some scales are even changing to reflect a mastery approach. My problem is that my kids will be compared to other kids, and what if their grades are 'padded' with homework, etc. grades rather than just mastery of content.

Its been awhile since I was public school teaching, but I remember there being a fair amount of wiggle room. Qualitative assessments are naturally going to allow for some subjectivity.

One thing I think is that grading is NOT standardized currently. I think that is something that maybe we should be looking at.

Heck even when I was trying to come up with a scale, there are so many different scales out there.

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 16:22:36 GMT -5 The Captain said:

oped - you have a degree in education if I recall?  What do they teach as being the most acceptable standard for measurement?

I've always wondered about this ie the grades based on mastery of a subject as opposed to on a bell curve.  Based on recent student teacher conferences and speaking with other parents it appears the trend is grading based on mastery of a subject.  I don't know if giving a kid extra credit for effort is really going to help them in life it they haven't learned the subject matter?

Well, you can't pass my class with the 20% for doing the homework/classwork.    There has to be some mastery of the subject involved, which is reflected in the other 80%.  Giving credit for work that is done as the subject is being mastered isn't "extra credit."

Actually, a mastery approach inflates grades.  In a true mastery approach, no one fails.  They just don't progress until they have mastered whatever.  We had an inservice where some principal in Texas discussed this with us.  He said he would fire all of us because we "fail" students in more than one ways than one.  No kid should ever fail.  They just keep trying, trying, trying until they get whatever the mastery goal is (7/10, for example).

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 16:16:13 GMT -5 oped said:

Oh, I know Excel! Thank you, I was hoping you would weigh in.

So I'm not out of line then if for each quarter where I have 7-8 test scores, I also add in one 100% score for participation.  

I mean, mine don't have a choice... they work till completion/correction. I DO go over classwork (we don't really have 'homework') and we work until its correct, so it feels like they should get some 'credit' for that... I guess...

On the other hand, I wonder about the idea of As being plentiful. Philosophically speaking, do you think As should be about meeting the class expectations, or about being the 'top' ... You don't have to answer that if you don't want to

except in school, you don't get to go over classwork/homework and work it untiil it's correct for a 100%....if you don't understand the homework, you still have to turn it in and you may only get a 70% - you don't get to redo the stuff you got wrong.

[The Captain]

May 5, 2014 16:26:55 GMT -5 oped said:

I agree with a mastery approach. And I have read that some scales are even changing to reflect a mastery approach. My problem is that my kids will be compared to other kids, and what if their grades are 'padded' with homework, etc. grades rather than just mastery of content.

Its been awhile since I was public school teaching, but I remember there being a fair amount of wiggle room. Qualitative assessments are naturally going to allow for some subjectivity.

One thing I think is that grading is NOT standardized currently. I think that is something that maybe we should be looking at.

Heck even when I was trying to come up with a scale, there are so many different scales out there.

Then your son will excel in college when all are on an even footing.

As far as standard grading, so much is subjective in so many subjects I don't see how that will ever happen unless we completely remove the human element from the teaching process.

[Deleted]

Yes, if you work from a mastery perspective, I think you might need to adjust the scale a bit. I think that if mastering less than 70% of the content is failing, then you either have to tailor the class to the child's abilities (Ie. Not everyone takes Biology I, some of them take Foundations of Biology or Practical Biology) ... or a lot of kids are not going to pass. There is no WAY that kids I used to teach would come close to 70% mastery of the material and concepts included in the Miller Levine Biology we used this year...

Which is another thing. Not everyone uses the same book. Or teaches the same content. I ran into the local district teacher who I knew from growing up, and she said, oh, you didn't try to teach that whole book did you? Only do the chapters that are on the test...

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 16:29:10 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

May 5, 2014 16:16:13 GMT -5 oped said:

Oh, I know Excel! Thank you, I was hoping you would weigh in.

So I'm not out of line then if for each quarter where I have 7-8 test scores, I also add in one 100% score for participation.  

I mean, mine don't have a choice... they work till completion/correction. I DO go over classwork (we don't really have 'homework') and we work until its correct, so it feels like they should get some 'credit' for that... I guess...

On the other hand, I wonder about the idea of As being plentiful. Philosophically speaking, do you think As should be about meeting the class expectations, or about being the 'top' ... You don't have to answer that if you don't want to

except in school, you don't get to go over classwork/homework and work it untiil it's correct for a 100%....if you don't understand the homework, you still have to turn it in and you may only get a 70% - you don't get to redo the stuff you got wrong.

Most homework grades in schools aren't given for correctness, but for completion... ie. you handed it in done...

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 16:29:10 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

May 5, 2014 16:16:13 GMT -5 oped said:

Oh, I know Excel! Thank you, I was hoping you would weigh in.

So I'm not out of line then if for each quarter where I have 7-8 test scores, I also add in one 100% score for participation.  

I mean, mine don't have a choice... they work till completion/correction. I DO go over classwork (we don't really have 'homework') and we work until its correct, so it feels like they should get some 'credit' for that... I guess...

On the other hand, I wonder about the idea of As being plentiful. Philosophically speaking, do you think As should be about meeting the class expectations, or about being the 'top' ... You don't have to answer that if you don't want to

except in school, you don't get to go over classwork/homework and work it untiil it's correct for a 100%....if you don't understand the homework, you still have to turn it in and you may only get a 70% - you don't get to redo the stuff you got wrong.

If your kids' teachers are grading all homework assignments for correctness, then your kids aren't getting much homework.  Imagine grading just 10 problems of math every day, looking at the process as they "show their work" to see what they did wrong.   Then multiply that by 125-150 kids.

If your kids' teachers are doing that type of work even three times a week (my normal homework load), I'm pretty impressed. 

I teach English, by the way, not math.  English and math have the two worst paper loads.

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 16:29:55 GMT -5 The Captain said:

May 5, 2014 16:26:55 GMT -5 oped said:

I agree with a mastery approach. And I have read that some scales are even changing to reflect a mastery approach. My problem is that my kids will be compared to other kids, and what if their grades are 'padded' with homework, etc. grades rather than just mastery of content.

Its been awhile since I was public school teaching, but I remember there being a fair amount of wiggle room. Qualitative assessments are naturally going to allow for some subjectivity.

One thing I think is that grading is NOT standardized currently. I think that is something that maybe we should be looking at.

Heck even when I was trying to come up with a scale, there are so many different scales out there.

Then your son will excel in college when all are on an even footing.

As far as standard grading, so much is subjective in so many subjects I don't see how that will ever happen unless we completely remove the human element from the teaching process.

So  long as he gets IN to college. He has been accepted conditionally to two dual enrollment programs. I have to send a transcript ... One of them won't care. One of them has a 3.4 cut off... After I figured out his grades I was like... wheeew... just squeaked by... that's why I'm rethinking adding in participation/ not doing straight mastery.

I also, as an evaluator, just had to review a transcript from a homeschool mom the other day, like I said, that had all 97-98s ... This for the only student I have EVER been harsh with in an evaluation because she read ONE BOOK last year... I told mom I thought it looked suspect but she said she had documentation to back it up...

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 16:33:57 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

May 5, 2014 16:29:10 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

except in school, you don't get to go over classwork/homework and work it untiil it's correct for a 100%....if you don't understand the homework, you still have to turn it in and you may only get a 70% - you don't get to redo the stuff you got wrong.

If your kids' teachers are grading all homework assignments for correctness, then your kids aren't getting much homework.  Imagine grading just 10 problems of math every day, looking at the process as they "show their work" to see what they did wrong.   Then multiply that by 125-150 kids.

If your kids' teachers are doing that type of work even three times a week (my normal homework load), I'm pretty impressed. 

I teach English, by the way, not math.  English and math have the two worst paper loads.

they aren't grading all homework/classwork assignments for correctness, but they are certainly grading some of them.  For my son's visual basic class, it's ALL homework/classwork (independent study) so when he hands in a program, it's checked for correctness.

[tskeeter]

May 5, 2014 15:30:48 GMT -5 oped said:

Ugh. I'm still having trouble with this.

Should I grade just based on the test scores? Or 'round up' based on discussion/ participation... etc. To me, a percentage should be based on mastery of content/skills. BUT I KNOW that not everyone grades that way, so what If I consider the 89% average he got on his bio tests as 89% mastery and his grade, but he is being compared to other kids who had homework and notebook and participation, etc. grades and then they get an A or A- ( 4.0-3.7) rather than the B+ (3.3)...

I have observed/evaluated for some parents whose transcripts are like all 97-99%... I think it looks fake. I don't want it to look like I just made stuff up. I want the transcript to be an honest assessment, but then I also don't want him to be held back because I graded 'harder' than other venues might...

How are schools grading these days?  

Is there a qualitative rubric at all for assigning course grades?

Is a 3.48 an ok GPA?

I think that the grade should be a reflection of the life skills that are demonstrated.  Technical skills are just a part of the whole picture.  And the easiest to evaluate.  Other life skills that should be considered include the ability to work with others and participation.  While this may penalize a child who is shy, and lacks confidence, it probably does more accurately reflect how successful the child will be in their adult life.  We all know people who are technical wizards, but whose other skills are so lacking that any success they achieve will be pretty modest.  And others, whose non-technical skills are so strong that it overcomes their lack of technical expertise.

While a grade may emphasize the technical mastery of the material, I think that to ignore the non-technical components of the educational process fails to prepare the child for the environment they have to function in outside of school. 

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 16:39:17 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

May 5, 2014 16:33:57 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

If your kids' teachers are grading all homework assignments for correctness, then your kids aren't getting much homework.  Imagine grading just 10 problems of math every day, looking at the process as they "show their work" to see what they did wrong.   Then multiply that by 125-150 kids.

If your kids' teachers are doing that type of work even three times a week (my normal homework load), I'm pretty impressed. 

I teach English, by the way, not math.  English and math have the two worst paper loads.

they aren't grading all homework/classwork assignments for correctness, but they are certainly grading some of them.  For my son's visual basic class, it's ALL homework/classwork (independent study) so when he hands in a program, it's checked for correctness.

Sure, I can see this.  But handing in a program is different from 10 problems X 125-150 students.

The Supreme Court actually acknowledged the problem here.  Someone sued because kids exchanged papers to "grade" them.  I forget which law that is a violation of, but it's the one that doesn't allow parents to see their college students' grades because they are legally adults.  The Supreme Court acknowledged that teachers couldn't possibly grade that many papers, and immediate feedback is important.

Most teachers just learned to give credit for what appears "honest effort" and then go over the answers and how to figure it out.

[justme]

May 5, 2014 16:35:53 GMT -5 oped said:

May 5, 2014 16:29:55 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Then your son will excel in college when all are on an even footing.

As far as standard grading, so much is subjective in so many subjects I don't see how that will ever happen unless we completely remove the human element from the teaching process.

So  long as he gets IN to college. He has been accepted conditionally to two dual enrollment programs. I have to send a transcript ... One of them won't care. One of them has a 3.4 cut off... After I figured out his grades I was like... wheeew... just squeaked by... that's why I'm rethinking adding in participation/ not doing straight mastery.

I also, as an evaluator, just had to review a transcript from a homeschool mom the other day, like I said, that had all 97-98s ... This for the only student I have EVER been harsh with in an evaluation because she read ONE BOOK last year... I told mom I thought it looked suspect but she said she had documentation to back it up...

How many years of dual enrollment is he going to do? I'm pretty sure his grades in those classes will matter a lot more to any college than what he gets for high school courses - since those classes are actually college courses (no guessing on what his current GPA will transfer to).


As for school, I don't recall a straight participation grade. Home/classwork grades, yes. It was a bit of completion, but I went in the days when students still graded other kids work for things that aren't subjective so a lot of that was based on how much was correct since the teacher would then just input the grade for that assignment.

[Deleted]

To me handing in a program is more like handing in a paper or a project than completing the regular 'homework' questions/problems.

[Deleted]

justme, I actually have it on my list to check if he can be dual enrolled at multiple places? I'm not sure about that. This was his 9th grade year. He's taking a university camp that is intended for high schoolers, but they dual enroll and offer 2 credits for... and another local college is offering an off campus 'introductory chemistry' in the fall we are looking at... it is one of those 'developmental' classes, 'not for science majors'... So I'm not sure that any of those credits will be anything that is 'transferable' material, although I do think him having done them and his progress in them would have an impact on his transcript going forward.  After those, I'm not sure. He is kind of looking at the Tech school electronics program for 11th grade, which is entirely dual enrollment 12 credits with the local tech college. I'm not sure if he'll end up doing that... but that's a third school. I really need to see if there is an issue with that...

I'm looking at high school as a 3-5 year transitional period in which I'm trying to prepare him for whatever might come immediately 'next'...

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 17:54:20 GMT -5 oped said:

To me handing in a program is more like handing in a paper or a project than completing the regular 'homework' questions/problems.

regardless, my point was that sometimes homework is graded for correctness and non-homeschooling students can't redo things so that they wind up with 100% for their participation/hw/classwork grades. 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

May 5, 2014 17:27:16 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

May 5, 2014 16:39:17 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

they aren't grading all homework/classwork assignments for correctness, but they are certainly grading some of them.  For my son's visual basic class, it's ALL homework/classwork (independent study) so when he hands in a program, it's checked for correctness.

Sure, I can see this.  But handing in a program is different from 10 problems X 125-150 students.

The Supreme Court actually acknowledged the problem here.  Someone sued because kids exchanged papers to "grade" them.  I forget which law that is a violation of, but it's the one that doesn't allow parents to see their college students' grades because they are legally adults.  The Supreme Court acknowledged that teachers couldn't possibly grade that many papers, and immediate feedback is important.

Most teachers just learned to give credit for what appears "honest effort" and then go over the answers and how to figure it out.

FERPA.  Federal Education Right to Privacy Act.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

May 5, 2014 16:26:55 GMT -5 oped said:

I agree with a mastery approach. And I have read that some scales are even changing to reflect a mastery approach. My problem is that my kids will be compared to other kids, and what if their grades are 'padded' with homework, etc. grades rather than just mastery of content.

Its been awhile since I was public school teaching, but I remember there being a fair amount of wiggle room. Qualitative assessments are naturally going to allow for some subjectivity.

One thing I think is that grading is NOT standardized currently. I think that is something that maybe we should be looking at.

Heck even when I was trying to come up with a scale, there are so many different scales out there.

IIRC, one of the goals of the No Child Left Behind Act was to standardize grading from the mastery point of view:  i.e., the goal was for all kids in America to be at least Proficient in all tested subjects.  

That is a respectable goal in light of the enormous differences in the quality of individual school districts across the country.  But, whether or not we can achieve it through NCLBA, or ever, is still open for debate.  

[Deleted]

May 5, 2014 19:49:47 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

May 5, 2014 16:26:55 GMT -5 oped said:

I agree with a mastery approach. And I have read that some scales are even changing to reflect a mastery approach. My problem is that my kids will be compared to other kids, and what if their grades are 'padded' with homework, etc. grades rather than just mastery of content.

Its been awhile since I was public school teaching, but I remember there being a fair amount of wiggle room. Qualitative assessments are naturally going to allow for some subjectivity.

One thing I think is that grading is NOT standardized currently. I think that is something that maybe we should be looking at.

Heck even when I was trying to come up with a scale, there are so many different scales out there.

IIRC, one of the goals of the No Child Left Behind Act was to standardize grading from the mastery point of view:  i.e., the goal was for all kids in America to be at least Proficient in all tested subjects.  

That is a respectable goal in light of the enormous differences in the quality of individual school districts across the country.  But, whether or not we can achieve it through NCLBA, or ever, is still open for debate.  

The problem with NCLB is that it didn't account for kids' individual abilities.  Do you only have a brain stem?  You must also be proficient.  I am slightly exaggerating, but not much.

Many schools met NCLB's standards because they didn't have enough kids to meet the minimum for testing.  A few large schools, despite other impressive numbers, got screwed on the special education issue.

Should a school be penalized if their severely handicapped students can't meet NCLB standards?  The act said they should if they had X number of students and X number didn't meet the standards.

Common sense (or common core) has helped a lot.

[Deleted]

Standardizing testing through NCLB didn't have much impact on standardizing grading, that I saw ...