NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 8, 2014 9:22:04 GMT -5
Foodstamps make too many people money for it to change. Fast Food is in b/c it's lobbyists wanted a slice of the pie. No way companies are going to give that money up for "people's health" or "saving tax dollars". Nabisco, Kraft, McDonald's, Pepsi, etc are the ones buying the votes, not us.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 8, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5
The easiest way is to limit what can be bought and add some basic stuff instead. I think TP, cleaning supplies, paper towels should be in it. Frozen dinners and expensive meats/shellfish should not. I am beginning to think that I really don't care what people buy with food stamps. You will not going to believe that but once I went on a website and read that what you shouldn't be buying with food stamps are...live puppies! Not even just dogs or animals in general... live puppies specifically! Sorry, just checked...it says live animals. My bad...
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Apr 8, 2014 12:45:22 GMT -5
You can buy all the dead puppies you want, of course.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 8, 2014 12:46:06 GMT -5
You can buy all the dead puppies you want, of course. Yep, its called 'meat'.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 8, 2014 13:48:14 GMT -5
I really hate these threads. For every person abusing the system are many more who are not. But no one posts (with the exception of beachbum's first post) about the person who genuinely benefits and uses them as intended. I guess that is not YM entertainment fodder.
Problem is, the focus on the few creates the false perception that everyone abuses the system and generates support for ending it. And that would hurt a lot of innocent people.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 8, 2014 14:50:58 GMT -5
I really hate these threads. For every person abusing the system are many more who are not. But no one posts (with the exception of beachbum's first post) about the person who genuinely benefits and uses them as intended. I guess that is not YM entertainment fodder. Problem is, the focus on the few creates the false perception that everyone abuses the system and generates support for ending it. And that would hurt a lot of innocent people.Or make them get off their butts and go...DO something!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 8, 2014 15:31:36 GMT -5
I really hate these threads. For every person abusing the system are many more who are not. But no one posts (with the exception of beachbum's first post) about the person who genuinely benefits and uses them as intended. I guess that is not YM entertainment fodder. Problem is, the focus on the few creates the false perception that everyone abuses the system and generates support for ending it. And that would hurt a lot of innocent people.Or make them get off their butts and go...DO something! My granddaughter is physically and mentally disabled. What kind of "something" do you suggest she "do"?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 8, 2014 19:36:57 GMT -5
Really? Someone who was unable to support herself is now having a child and collecting food stamps. I see a serious issue with this. Adoption or abortion if you are unable to support your child. Especially if you're a child yourself.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 8, 2014 19:53:38 GMT -5
Really? Someone who was unable to support herself is now having a child and collecting food stamps. I see a serious issue with this. Adoption or abortion if you are unable to support your child. Especially if you're a child yourself. If you're responding to gardening grandma-she isn't saying her granddaughter is pregnant. Her granddaughter is not able to earn a living and I believe gets food stamps for herself. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 8, 2014 20:31:20 GMT -5
I'm NOT referring to her.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 8, 2014 20:34:36 GMT -5
I really hate these threads. For every person abusing the system are many more who are not. But no one posts (with the exception of beachbum's first post) about the person who genuinely benefits and uses them as intended. I guess that is not YM entertainment fodder. Problem is, the focus on the few creates the false perception that everyone abuses the system and generates support for ending it. And that would hurt a lot of innocent people. I can't speak for others, but I know I wouldn't ever advocate getting rid of food stamps entirely and haven't read many genuine posts that support such a drastic step. IMHO most people posting think that the system isn't well designed and use threads like this to point out how design flaws cause issues.
Maybe I missed something about the OP, but it didn't appear to me that the woman in the OP was abusing the system because right now it's perfectly legal to spend your entire food stamp allowance on crab legs. The ridiculousness of that very situation - what is legally allowed - is what causes the reaction and the outrage. The WIC guidelines aren't perfect, but having food stamp purchases be limited to the foods allowed under WIC would be a quick, easy way to get rid of some of the crazy things that people see and resent. It would be a good start in getting the general public to be more supportive of the program if the people using the program weren't purchasing foods that the general public either can't afford or avoids for health reasons.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 9, 2014 7:32:10 GMT -5
See this is where I feel the rules aren't made to stop abuse, but really to try and make the person using them feel badly. I know I did the thread and OP as a joke but I want to continue the serious part if people don't mind. Crab legs IMO are actually very healthy food. They are mostly protien with almost no fat or carbs. The problem is they are ridiculously expensive as are a bunch of other luxury foods like lobster or filet minon. But it isn't like ground hamburger is exactly cheap these days. It is at the point that anything close to $3.00 a lb is a screaming deal. Most days it is over $5.00 a lb. Things like chicken are normally $4.00 a lb. My opinion would be that the crab or lobster is actualy healthier than the ground beef but I know others probably disagree. So if the cost is even close is it really a bad thing to get the more expensive thing that is healthier? Is this really about the money or something else? The laws are crazy complicated and if it is to stop people from buying things like prepared hot food I really have to question why. Say someone lives in housing without normal cooking facilities? Is it really so bad to help them pay for food that is prepared since they can't actualy cook much themselves? Is it really much better to say no hot prepared food like a rotisserie chicken if it is hot, but if the store puts it in the fridge to make it cold it is okay? And it is actually legal to buy fried chicken or other prepared foods in a grocery store if they are refrigerated first. Talk about a fine line someone wrote. And to get back to money a raw whole chicken costs about $10. The cooked rotisserie ones only cost between $8-$10. I don't really understand why it is so bad for people on food stamps to buy the cooked one since it isn't a money issue and it is literally the same thing just cooked for them.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 9, 2014 7:47:04 GMT -5
Again, I can't speak for everybody, only myself - but IMHO it's a combination of a money issue and a health issue.
The idea behind SNAP is to provide some food for a person who otherwise wouldn't be able to feed himself/herself. In addition to food, our society now provides for that person essentially free healthcare. It makes no sense whatsoever from a moral, legal or logical standpoint to provide enough of an allowance that the recipient is able to comfortably buy things the other taxpayers can't afford or to provide an allowance that compromises the health of the recipient.
Food stamps should be readily available, but they should only allow a selection of (relatively) inexpensive, healthy foods. And yes, that will sometimes mean that the healthy foods allowed cost slightly more than some of the unhealthy alternatives. The problem is how the rules were generated is focused on preparation method, not the end result, so create weird anomalies like the rotisserie chicken/fried chicken examples. Scrap those old rules and start new focusing on low cost, high nutrition foods.
BTW, this is another example of a program that would be much more effective if run at a local level. Trying to design a program that fits a nation of over 300 million people with thousands of different cultures, climates, etc is almost impossible, expensive and prone to just the type of stupidity we're reading about here. But I'm guessing that within communities, people within the community would have a shot at designing solutions that work for that area's food supply, tastes, issues, etc.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 9, 2014 7:52:42 GMT -5
I can't find it right now but I remember reading an article about how food stamp laws were made and companies like Pepsi lobbied HARD against limiting or elimating foods like soda from the eligible list. I'm pretty sure grocery stores make a significant % of their profits from people paying with food stamps. So not allowing something like soda would cost the soda companies lots of money.
This really makes me hate politics!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 9, 2014 8:27:19 GMT -5
See this is where I feel the rules aren't made to stop abuse, but really to try and make the person using them feel badly. I know I did the thread and OP as a joke but I want to continue the serious part if people don't mind. Crab legs IMO are actually very healthy food. They are mostly protien with almost no fat or carbs. The problem is they are ridiculously expensive as are a bunch of other luxury foods like lobster or filet minon. But it isn't like ground hamburger is exactly cheap these days. It is at the point that anything close to $3.00 a lb is a screaming deal. Most days it is over $5.00 a lb. Things like chicken are normally $4.00 a lb. My opinion would be that the crab or lobster is actualy healthier than the ground beef but I know others probably disagree. So if the cost is even close is it really a bad thing to get the more expensive thing that is healthier? Is this really about the money or something else? The laws are crazy complicated and if it is to stop people from buying things like prepared hot food I really have to question why. Say someone lives in housing without normal cooking facilities? Is it really so bad to help them pay for food that is prepared since they can't actualy cook much themselves? Is it really much better to say no hot prepared food like a rotisserie chicken if it is hot, but if the store puts it in the fridge to make it cold it is okay? And it is actually legal to buy fried chicken or other prepared foods in a grocery store if they are refrigerated first. Talk about a fine line someone wrote. And to get back to money a raw whole chicken costs about $10. The cooked rotisserie ones only cost between $8-$10. I don't really understand why it is so bad for people on food stamps to buy the cooked one since it isn't a money issue and it is literally the same thing just cooked for them. I agree about the crab=healthy thing but at least to me it's about, I dunno, truth in advertising? If you need foodstamps then (JMHO) I would expect that money is, well - tight. In that situation I would expect folks to be working on getting the biggest bang for their grocery dollar. Canned Tuna, Beans, Lentils, Barley, and Rice are also healthy options and good sources of protein, fiber, and other vitamins and minerals. When you spend money on what is, lets be honest, a luxury item it screams to me that you have money to spare - and in that case then why are you on food stamps? Also (at least in my area) the cooked rotisserie chicken is 2.5-3.5 pounds. Whole roasting chickens go from around 1.40-2.39# (they are on sale this week for 1.39) so get a 7# bird for the same price, get more than twice as much meat, and stretch it out for several meals. It is a money issue as far as I can tell. Honestly, how did people manage to survive before someone else made pre-prepared food for them?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 9, 2014 8:44:13 GMT -5
First of all a cooked meat loses some of it's weight in the cooking process. I can't remember how much but it is a decent %. so paying the same amount for a 2lb cooked chicken as for a 3lb raw one actually sounds like a good deal to me as the raw chicken probably would have lost most of that weight in the cooking process in my house too. That said I think my problem is in the awarding process really. Why does one person need blank amount in food stamps? Does a person really go over their numbers and figure out what their expenses are? I know in the days before computers actual people did look at application. I don't know if that actually happens today or a computer just takes the raw data from the app and churns out set answers. Maybe that is why some people seem to have so much food stamp money and others it only covers a very small amount of their actual grocery bills. I don't know but does anyone here know if they actually look to see what their rent, utilities and childcare actually cost them to see what it cost them? and I used to volunteer to cook food for a battered women's shelter. It was the same setup as the other shelter type places in the tri county area. It was basically a hotel room. It had two beds and a bathroom. In the room it had a very small kitchenetter. The kitchenette consisted of a dorm fridge with a two burner stovetop literally on top of the dorm fridge. Next to that was a dresser that they could use toput food although most put clothes in it and food on top. On top of the dresser was a small microwave. The only sink was in the bathroom although most didn't mind that part. It saved space and it wasn't like they could actually turn on the burners without totally defrosting/heating up the fridge. For those people those microwave dinners or precooked chicken type things were a Godsend.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 9, 2014 11:26:31 GMT -5
My opinion would be that the crab or lobster is actualy healthier than the ground beef but I know others probably disagree. So if the cost is even close is it really a bad thing to get the more expensive thing that is healthier? Is this really about the money or something else?
It is. Only problem is that it tends to run about $20/lb (at least around in the PNW) and is about 60% waste that you are paying for. Even though a chicken has waste too, at $2-4/lb, there is way less waste.
There are healthier choices that you can make (hell, even shrimp or salmon) have less waste, are cheaper and have comparable health benefits.
I love crab, but very rarely buy it only because I can't wrap my brain around the idea of paying essentially $40-50/lb for it.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 9, 2014 11:39:35 GMT -5
Or make them get off their butts and go...DO something! My granddaughter is physically and mentally disabled. What kind of "something" do you suggest she "do"? That is crazy talk! Physically and otherwise disabled is a totally different category of people. They were and will be helped no matter what. I do not suppose your granddaughter goes shopping for crab legs, does she?
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 9, 2014 11:44:26 GMT -5
... Honestly, how did people manage to survive before someone else made pre-prepared food for them? Just remember when co-worker came to my cubical and whispered: 'you were kidding about that to make a chicken soup you take a whole chicken and boil it...right?'
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 9, 2014 11:52:03 GMT -5
I'll tell you how they survived. Religious places helped, neighbors helped and people actually worked, gardened, canned, whatever to eat. People like my girlfriend whose family had more mouths to feed than income to feed them went hungry and grew up to get job skills and not have more kids than they could afford to feed. She never forgot being hungry and she is almost 60.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 9, 2014 11:56:54 GMT -5
I'll tell you how they survived. Religious places helped, neighbors helped and people actually worked, gardened, canned, whatever to eat. People like my girlfriend whose family had more mouths to feed than income to feed them went hungry and grew up to get job skills and not have more kids than they could afford to feed. She never forgot being hungry and she is almost 60. But no one got screwed up because they were hungry at times, right?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 9, 2014 12:09:56 GMT -5
Actually, it was a very valuable lesson, she says. She's the first to be angry about the enabling.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 9, 2014 12:29:50 GMT -5
My opinion would be that the crab or lobster is actualy healthier than the ground beef but I know others probably disagree. So if the cost is even close is it really a bad thing to get the more expensive thing that is healthier? Is this really about the money or something else?It is. Only problem is that it tends to run about $20/lb (at least around in the PNW) and is about 60% waste that you are paying for. Even though a chicken has waste too, at $2-4/lb, there is way less waste. There are healthier choices that you can make (hell, even shrimp or salmon) have less waste, are cheaper and have comparable health benefits. I love crab, but very rarely buy it only because I can't wrap my brain around the idea of paying essentially $40-50/lb for it. See this is where locality probably makes the difference. Crab legs are on sale this week for $7.99 a lb. Boneless chicken breasts are on sale for $6 lb. Shrimp is $8 lb. Last week interestingly enough lobster was $4.99 a lb. The best deal this week are hams and hot dogs, because of Easter. Those are around $2 lb. I don't consider the hams to be very healthy myself. If I had nothing else I would eat it of course but if I have a choice I would rather just eat bread. Ground beef has been over $5 lb here for ages. So it comes down to what people like and what they consider healthy. Personally I don't find a loss of 60% when cleaning crab, but it is more than most meat. My point is I don't think it really isn't about the money in the case of food stamps. If it was they would go back to the days of free cheese and peanut butter. This probably would be better run at the local level where they know what is cheaper locally than someone in Wash.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Apr 9, 2014 12:37:52 GMT -5
I'm still feeling bad for the 2nd person in your OP beach.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 9, 2014 12:42:47 GMT -5
yeah me too.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 9, 2014 12:47:10 GMT -5
My granddaughter is physically and mentally disabled. What kind of "something" do you suggest she "do"? That is crazy talk! Physically and otherwise disabled is a totally different category of people. They were and will be helped no matter what. I do not suppose your granddaughter goes shopping for crab legs, does she? No, she doesn't shop for crab legs. She isn't able to shop for herself at all. You said "they should get off their butts and DO something". You did not make any exceptipns for children, elderly or disabled people and those are the majority of food stamp beneficaries.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 9, 2014 12:58:59 GMT -5
That is crazy talk! Physically and otherwise disabled is a totally different category of people. They were and will be helped no matter what. I do not suppose your granddaughter goes shopping for crab legs, does she? No, she doesn't shop for crab legs. She isn't able to shop for herself at all. You said "they should get off their butts and DO something". You did not make any exceptipns for children, elderly or disabled people and those are the majority of food stamp beneficaries. I didn't think I need to say anything because we were talking from the beginning here about people who are abusing system. No one ever said people with disabilities will have to be cut! More even...if those able moochers were taken off - all who is eligible by health or anything else could probably benefit more because new rehabilitation programs could be financed etc. or in legit poor families kids would get better free meal plans etc. that is what I think we were up to here...sorry if you felt hurt.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 9, 2014 13:46:53 GMT -5
No, she doesn't shop for crab legs. She isn't able to shop for herself at all. You said "they should get off their butts and DO something". You did not make any exceptipns for children, elderly or disabled people and those are the majority of food stamp beneficaries. I didn't think I need to say anything because we were talking from the beginning here about people who are abusing system. No one ever said people with disabilities will have to be cut! More even...if those able moochers were taken off - all who is eligible by health or anything else could probably benefit more because new rehabilitation programs could be financed etc. or in legit poor families kids would get better free meal plans etc. that is what I think we were up to here...sorry if you felt hurt. Actually at least one poster said that the program should be abolished. My point is that when we focus on the few who do abuse the system, we forget that there are many many people who do need the program and do not abuse it. When we spend pages and pages on a thread about the abusers, people start thinking that all the program does is feed the jerks who don't need it and they start calling for an end to the program. I'm just attempting to add some perspective. My feelings are not important. But my granddaughter's well being (as well as that of other disabled people) are important.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 9, 2014 14:12:42 GMT -5
So, who fed the disabled, the unwed mothers, and the poor when there was no welfare and food stamps? They didn't just die in the streets and it isn't like disabled just happened overnight. As far as unwed, well, they used to give those babies up for adoption if they couldn't get married or support them but that's no longer an option because we support those behaviors/choices. I remember when families supported their families so it isn't like we always relied on the govt tit to survive. I think when we made it easy to make poor decisions and reap no consequences for them, you get system abuse. It makes those who truly need it get whatever is left over from the thieves who steal it from the workers to begin with. Yup, I'm for ending food stamps unless you are physically or mentally or both disabled. You choose to pop out a kid? Best choose to feed it then. Or give it to those who will. It's frightening to now see a new generation having babies out of wedlock because marriage would cause them to lose bennies. So you can live with baby daddy and qualify for all kinds of stuff whereas if you get married and have children, you not only don't qualify for jack shit, you get to pay taxes to support those who figured out the system and are gaming it. I'm all for getting that fake marriage license and qualifying for free college or lots of financial aid. That's much better than me working 3 jobs to support my kids and help them with college.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 9, 2014 14:17:46 GMT -5
The register system at our store tells the cashier that an EBT card has been used and it is the custom or training of the cashiers to tell the customer how much is remaining on the card. (They merely state that there's $X left on the card, which leaves open the possibility that a gift or prepaid card has been used.) In other words, cashiers always know that the method of payment is an EBT card. They don't have to look at the card.
I'm not a cashier, but I've talked to several who have been doing it for years. They universally say that the customers run the gamut. Yes, they do see the customers buying crab legs with the EBT card and buying beer, cigarettes and 50#s of dog food with cash. But they also see a fair number of customers who come with a list, a flyer, and a stack of coupons. It's also not that unusual for them to process an order for a coworker who is using an EBT card to pay.
They quickly learn not to judge and stop being surprised. I suspect that most of them would prefer not to know as much as they do about the method of payment.
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