Pants
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Post by Pants on Mar 31, 2014 8:46:39 GMT -5
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/and-dont-help-your-kids-with-their-homework/358636/"The researchers combed through nearly three decades’ worth of longitudinal surveys of American parents and tracked 63 different measures of parental participation in kids’ academic lives, from helping them with homework, to talking with them about college plans, to volunteering at their schools. In an attempt to show whether the kids of more-involved parents improved over time, the researchers indexed these measures to children’s academic performance, including test scores in reading and math. What they found surprised them. Most measurable forms of parental involvement seem to yield few academic dividends for kids, or even to backfire—regardless of a parent’s race, class, or level of education."
Thoughts?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 8:48:43 GMT -5
Using test scores to measure academic performance is futile?
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Mar 31, 2014 8:57:32 GMT -5
My parents helped me with homework and projects when I needed it, but very little of that work translated to the tests. The standardized tests just had nothing do with the majority of our curricula. I made great grades but only slightly above average on the standardized tests.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 8:58:18 GMT -5
We need to stop doing for our children what they can do for themselves. Why the heck do I need to check and sign homework? IT isn't MY homework. It is my kids' homework. It is up to THEM to make sure it is done. To much pandering and pitying turns people into emotional cripples. When DD was younger, she is my baby so I tended to baby her. I realized that I was HURTING her by making her weak rather than teaching her that she is a strong girl. I changed directions and I had to allow her to work out some issues herself. And, with my oldest son, he always struggled in school. We did everything we could to help him from tutors to extra help, blah, blah. Finally, when he hit HS, I told him, my hands are OFF the wheel. Sink or swim. You OWN it. Your work is your work. Your lack of effort is your lack of effort. You either will do it or don't and I don't care WHY or why not. And, as a result, he is doing OK. He isn't an academic star and never will be. But, you have to let your child OWN their own lives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:03:02 GMT -5
RIGHT ON, Shoobs!!
I am amending my first statement: Using test scores to gauge anything but how someone performed on a test is futile.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Mar 31, 2014 9:08:36 GMT -5
This kind of meddling could leave children more anxious than enthusiastic about school, Robinson speculates. “Ask them ‘Do you want to see me volunteering more? Going to school social functions? Is it helpful if I help you with homework?’ ” he told me. “We think about informing parents and schools what they need to do, but too often we leave the child out of the conversation.”
We already do this. I've got kids that want us to be involved. I think that's one of the ways my oldest feels loved. (He's 10, and nearly every morning he still greets me with a huge bear hug and tells me he loves me.) Who knows how much the littlest will want us involved..Her personality is much different...
I also help supervise large projects with my oldest. At school, they don't make him re-do work when he rushes through and does a crap job. Even rushing through and doing a crap job, my DS will get decent enough grades. Unfortunately, he can also charm the pants off most of his teachers...only the old crusty ones don't fall for it. Teachers aren't working with the kids on how to take a large project and break it down in to bite size tasks to complete over the course of a month. So, we are working on these skills..To me that's different than double checking his homework...
Pesky parents are often effective, especially in public schools, at securing better textbooks, new playgrounds, and all the “extras” that make an educational community come to life, like art, music, theater, and after-school clubs. This kind of parental engagement may not directly affect test scores, but it can make school a more positive place for all kids, regardless of what their parents do or don’t do at home. Getting involved in your children’s schools is not just a way to give them a leg up—it could also be good citizenship.
I think this is important, too, for kids to see parents be involved in something. Maybe it's not the PTA. Maybe it's volunteering as ski patrol, or working in community gardens picking food that will go to food pantries, or volunteering at the local humane society.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 31, 2014 9:09:00 GMT -5
yay!! there is finally research to support my lazy parenting approach!!
I feel like I should get a prize or something...hmmmm
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:14:27 GMT -5
I tell my kids I will help them to the EXTENT that they help themselves. If I care more about it then they do, then that is a problem. If I am working harder to help you than you are to help yourself, then sorry, it is obvious you don't want to bother so I am not going to waste my time doing for them what they are not willing to do for themselves. I think a big part of the problem is that many parents today just don't want to accept who their kids really are. I put all 3 of my kids in music lessons. My sons took lesson and played in the school band. However, over time, it became apparent that neither one ever took the initiative to pick up and play their instrument of their own accord. So I made them stay in band from 4 - 6 grade because I invested in those instruments. And, my sons even choose to stay in band into 7th grade. But, then I told them it is completely their choice to stay in band or not. They both choose to quit. However, I started DD on the piano and she also asked to play the clarinet. She enjoys playing and she picks her up instruments and will play them in the evening or on the weekends, etc. She truly has an interest. My sons don't, so what? They had some lessons and learned some things so it isn't a waste. But neither is going to be a musician so I accept that. And, DD is pretty good at the piano but in reality it is a HOBBY. I wanted to give her the gift of music for her enjoyment. So, I don't brow beat her to practice. It is up to HER how good she wants to be at it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:16:21 GMT -5
I think a big part of the problem is that many parents today just don't want to accept who their kids really are. If you kids are lazy, pathetic slobs who would rather play video games all day, never shower and eat cheetos, parents should just accept that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:16:27 GMT -5
I never had to study to get As and score well on standardized tests. So no help would have corollated to high scores in my case...
On the other hand, I worked in special Ed with lots of kids who needed tons of involvement and assistance to achieve average good scores and do average on standardized tests...
As far as correlations go... I'm not sure that just looking at the results is enough.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:16:34 GMT -5
There are lots of ways to be "involved" that don't involve helicoptering over your children. DH and I coach DD's elementary basketball team. DH coached little league, football and our sons' basketball team. They see us involved in the community, etc.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Mar 31, 2014 9:16:39 GMT -5
I think it depends on how you define "help." If your child comes to you because they're confused about how to work out a math problem, guiding their thoughts so they figure it out themselves is one thing. Taking the paper from them and doing the problem while they watch is another. I heavily volunteer in the schools. I don't think it benefits my kids in any way - I certainly don't see them while I'm there. I do it because I enjoy helping and giving back to the schools. That said, I don't do any volunteering after 4pm because that's my family time. I've met quite a few moms that are so into volunteering that I swear they must never see their kids/husbands. They spend their lives racing from one board meeting to another and their kids spend their days reading books in the hall waiting on mom. If you're going to do that to your kids, you might as well go get a paying job. My DD (7yo) recently started making her own breakfast and packing her own lunch in the mornings. At first she was thrilled that I'd let her, but after a week or so she wanted to go back to having me do it for her. I said no (and felt quite guilty about it) but figured if she's demonstrated she's capable, then she should own the job from now on. It's hard to find that line between "nurturing mother" and "independence teaching."
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:21:13 GMT -5
Of course I will help with projects, homework, etc. But if you have to sit down with your child EVERY night, then something is wrong. And, nothing wrong with being a chaperone or helping out at School. I don't think anyone is saying to ignore your child and raise them like a wolf. But, yes, DD is 12 and packs her lunch. I have offered to pack it for her and she says "i can do it myself" In some ways I feel like I do want to do those nurturing things. I seem to help my oldest son out in more ways than my younger son. My younger son is almost totally self sufficient to the point that I feel he doesn't "need" me so I dont' know whether to feel proud or sad!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:25:28 GMT -5
I think a big part of the problem is that many parents today just don't want to accept who their kids really are. If you kids are lazy, pathetic slobs who would rather play video games all day, never shower and eat cheetos, parents should just accept that? You just described my son right down to the Cheetos.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Mar 31, 2014 9:27:54 GMT -5
I tell my kids I will help them to the EXTENT that they help themselves. If I care more about it then they do, then that is a problem. If I am working harder to help you than you are to help yourself, then sorry, it is obvious you don't want to bother so I am not going to waste my time doing for them what they are not willing to do for themselves. I think a big part of the problem is that many parents today just don't want to accept who their kids really are. I put all 3 of my kids in music lessons. My sons took lesson and played in the school band. However, over time, it became apparent that neither one ever took the initiative to pick up and play their instrument of their own accord. So I made them stay in band from 4 - 6 grade because I invested in those instruments. And, my sons even choose to stay in band into 7th grade. But, then I told them it is completely their choice to stay in band or not. They both choose to quit. However, I started DD on the piano and she also asked to play the clarinet. She enjoys playing and she picks her up instruments and will play them in the evening or on the weekends, etc. She truly has an interest. My sons don't, so what? They had some lessons and learned some things so it isn't a waste. But neither is going to be a musician so I accept that. And, DD is pretty good at the piano but in reality it is a HOBBY. I wanted to give her the gift of music for her enjoyment. So, I don't brow beat her to practice. It is up to HER how good she wants to be at it. DD recently wanted to be in the school talent show. BUT, she wouldn't come up with a performance and didn't want to practice anything. I reminded her twice and she didn't change. So, I told the music teacher (my co-worker) that DD wasn't willing to work on anything and suggested the teacher exclude her from the show. Natural consequences and all that. Of course, the teacher is a softie and gave DD a small role anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:28:17 GMT -5
All kids are different. They all need different things and that includes levels of involvement.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:31:31 GMT -5
Accepting your children doesn't mean allowing them to walk all over you. If they are "lazy, pathetic slobs who only want to play video games", it is YOUR house so YOU decide what YOU tolerate in YOUR house. Who buys the video games? Who buys the game system? Part of my children being in a family means they have duties and responsibilities to the family. There are chores that need done. If you dont' do them, then you don't get to go anywhere, and you can sit in your room with no phone, no electronics, no computer, no anything until you do. YOUR choice kid. Funny, they seem to choose to do the chores.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:31:37 GMT -5
How much is too much, though? Parents calling their kid's college professor over a bad grade doesn't happen overnight...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:32:45 GMT -5
All kids are different. They all need different things and that includes levels of involvement.
I agree. And, I am not saying dont' be involved. But, we all know and have seen parents who literally cripple their children by overinvolvement and helicoptering.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:34:22 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:36:58 GMT -5
Accepting your children doesn't mean allowing them to walk all over you. If they are "lazy, pathetic slobs who only want to play video games", it is YOUR house so YOU decide what YOU tolerate in YOUR house. Who buys the video games? Who buys the game system? Part of my children being in a family means they have duties and responsibilities to the family. There are chores that need done. If you dont' do them, then you don't get to go anywhere, and you can sit in your room with no phone, no electronics, no computer, no anything until you do. YOUR choice kid. Funny, they seem to choose to do the chores. But if they sit in their room doing nothing, including homework, no skin off you back?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:41:08 GMT -5
You seem to be missing the point. They aren't going to want to sit in their room doing nothing for very long. There are standards they have to live up to with out excuses and with out me chasing them around to "remind" them like they are 3 years old. You will take out the trash, vacuum, etc OR I don't need to bother to pay for all the fun things you enjoy in life like cell phones , ipods, etc. They can choose to do nothing if they want to have nothing.
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Regis
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Post by Regis on Mar 31, 2014 9:42:17 GMT -5
RIGHT ON, Shoobs!! I am amending my first statement: Using test scores to gauge anything but how someone performed on a test is futile. Actually, studies have been done on college academic success with regards to standardized (ACT & SAT) test scores. While a high test score does not guarantee success is college, a low score will (in most cases) indicate much lesser degrees of success. And back to the subject: To me it's the same old story of giving a man (or child) a fish versus teaching a man to fish.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:42:47 GMT -5
Yes, because saying "I am not doing your homework for you" equals "I don't care if you don't get your homework done".
DD tries to get me to give her math answers all of the time and I won't. I'll usually give her the answer to the problem before it and then have her count up (so if she wants to know what 7x8 is, I'll tell her 7x7 if 49 and have her take it from there).
I want her to get her work done but I am not doing it for her. Even better is her wanting to get it done so that she doesn't get a "zap" on her daily report.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 31, 2014 9:43:26 GMT -5
There was an article awhile ago about helping your kids on the playground
One mother wrote that she wanted other people to stay the heck away from her kids so they can learn to do things themselves.
The "attachment parenting" crowd went all crazy with writing blogs and "rebuttals" saying that they want everyone to help their kids so their kids can feel loved and supported.
I told my husband that he needs to take charge of our children's social life bc I really can't stand all that nonsense and need to stay away from it
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 31, 2014 9:45:42 GMT -5
RIGHT ON, Shoobs!! I am amending my first statement: Using test scores to gauge anything but how someone performed on a test is futile. Actually, studies have been done on college academic success with regards to standardized (ACT & SAT) test scores. While a high test score does not guarantee success is college, a low score will (in most cases) indicate much lesser degrees of success.
And back to the subject: To me it's the same old story of giving a man (or child) a fish versus teaching a man to fish. ummm....I am no scientist but isn't it kind of obvious since your whole college "career" is measured by tests??
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:46:43 GMT -5
Perspiration beats inspiration. Hard work will beat out anything else. Applying yourself and giving your all is what makes you successful. I am coaching elementary girls' basketball. There are a few girls on the team who really just don't have the passion for the game yet. I HOPE that they will in time. The other girls have caught the fire. But, no amount of coaching, teaching, encouraging is going to make them care or WANT to be the best they can be. I hope the fire of the other girls will encourage them and that we can get through. But, on the court, they have to WANT it. They have to CARE about it. If they don't, that isn't something you can force. And, our kids' lives will be about what becomes important to THEM. Learning has to come from within. It is internal. YOu can browbeat kids when they are young and force them to do their work. But , you can't browbeat someone into being a successful person. The drive and desire has to come from inside them.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 31, 2014 9:47:51 GMT -5
How much is too much, though? Parents calling their kid's college professor over a bad grade doesn't happen overnight... It depends. I never helped with homework much. I just never believed that they should actually be learning things through homework. I thought of it as practice or developing the skills to study for the time they would actually need it. DH on the other hand would actually confuse things if he tried to help the kids with their math. DD used to beg me to not let Dad help her with her homework. By the time he is through writing his explanations of a 4th grade math problem he could have programmed the space shuttle.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Mar 31, 2014 9:48:37 GMT -5
How much is too much, though? Parents calling their kid's college professor over a bad grade doesn't happen overnight... I think that's a good question. Parent helpers are requested in kindy when the kids are broken up into groups of 7. Usually, there are three groups. The teacher takes one, the kindy aide takes another, and a parent helps with a third. The teachers use this format 3 days a week. I swear that there must be parents that check in every day to see when the sign up sheet is going up in the next month. In a matter of 12 hours, the sign up sheet is generally full. For a while we had moms that were signing up for two volunteer days, simply because they got to the sign up list first. The teachers must of said something, because I'm not seeing that anymore. But now, instead, we are seeing both mom and dad sign up to volunteer twice in the same month. I'm trying to cut most of these parents some slack, because this is the first time around the rodeo for them. And, I think there are like 3 of us in the class that are not kindy newbies. I also don't think these parents understand how unsustainable being that involved is when you have three kids rather close together in age.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 31, 2014 9:48:43 GMT -5
Yes, because saying "I am not doing your homework for you" equals "I don't care if you don't get your homework done".
No it doesn't. That is your opinion.
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