milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2014 21:24:23 GMT -5
I thought the vaccine link had been thoroughly tested and disproved? It has.
Just my guess - purely a guess. But I think it's going to be very tough to figure out because it's a combination of factors and most well-designed tests only test one variable. For example, if having a father over 50 with these 4 recessive genes and either parent with these 6 dominant genes plus prenatal exposure to chemical Q during weeks 14-22 of development plus 4 micrograms weekly of substance W as a young child is the combination that produces autism, it's going to be incredibly tough to figure that out.
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les63
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Post by les63 on Mar 28, 2014 21:29:08 GMT -5
Oh to I'm not snarky; "oh but I am posts". Yeah, you are. Come back to me when you're an expert on autism. Until then? My hand is up in your face.
I feel sorry for you.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 28, 2014 21:31:52 GMT -5
It seems like they don't even know where to start with the research. Of course, I could be wrong, as I don't keep up on it. I just remember they classifed Asperger's and autism separately, and now have put them together on one spectrum. Was there research that supported this, or was it just speculation? If there are 2 different causes, then I would think that lumping them together would set research back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 21:34:11 GMT -5
I think it's been well tested in a general sense. But along the 'combination of factors' train of thought, there may be sub populations which require specific study... Those more susceptible to autoimmune issues, etc... I'd also like to see a study utilizing titer testing to determine widespread need for multiple doses, etc. ...
I don't think we can discount anecdotal evidence of regression after vaccines... But neither do I think it is a generalizable risk. It might be one of the factors.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 28, 2014 21:36:42 GMT -5
But aren't there non vaccinated kids out there who have also,sufferered the regression? There is an Amish population in my area. They do not vaccinate. They do have autistic kids.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2014 21:40:30 GMT -5
I think it's been well tested in a general sense. But along the 'combination of factors' train of thought, there may be sub populations which require specific study... Those more susceptible to autoimmune issues, etc... I'd also like to see a study utilizing titer testing to determine widespread need for multiple doses, etc. ... I don't think we can discount anecdotal evidence of regression after vaccines... But neither do I think it is a generalizable risk. It might be one of the factors. I agree there is probably a sub population that may be disproportionately impacted by vaccinations... or radio waves... or tofu.
But if I were in charge of autism research, I'd want to start with figuring out what's impacting the largest number of children with autism and they've pretty conclusively determined that it isn't vaccination, so I'd be looking for what it is instead.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Mar 28, 2014 21:45:00 GMT -5
Oh to I'm not snarky; "oh but I am posts". Yeah, you are. Come back to me when you're an expert on autism. Until then? My hand is up in your face. I feel sorry for you. well, I am glad that you're being reasonable about this. (that was snark, btw) My last post wasn't, and I said so, because it's so hard to convey tone on the Internet. But I only wrote what I did, because your other posts were so painfully sad, and I really felt for you. I thought I could offer another perspective that could help you come to terms with your sense of urgency in the matter with other people's apparent apathy. I never claimed to be an expert, but having one child does not make you an expert either. I care about a lot of things, and resort my time and energy to them. This is not one of those things I care about. But I DID care about how you were feeling. and please put your hand back now. you're just being vulgar now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 21:52:08 GMT -5
You know what, if you don't want to think vaccines could have any impact at all, I'm ok with that. I'm not scared of them, I vaccinate, although I doubt I'd follow today's timetable if I was doing it now.
That said, I think if we are considering a multitude of factors converging as potentially causal, I don't see how they can be ruled out across the board.
Maybe it's because I know, in my case, a freaking organic sweet potato can give me a migraine, intestinal distress and make me sleep it off with a subsequent hangover that I know that not all bodies react to things the same way.
Last summer I did tomatoes every week for 7 weeks.. No big issue. The 8 th I broke out in full body hives. At that point, every little thing that might occasionally give me a passing irritation set off my histimine response like gangbusters until I could detox completely and reset my response. This has happened maybe 5 times before in my life... I never have one direct cause, but the last straw pushes me over the edge and at that point everything sets me off until I can reset.
im saying I could see autism being a convergence like that... Not exactly the same in every case and a conglomeration of issues... And in that case I can't see writing off vaccines as having the possibility of contributing in certain individuals.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 21:53:53 GMT -5
I think it's been well tested in a general sense. But along the 'combination of factors' train of thought, there may be sub populations which require specific study... Those more susceptible to autoimmune issues, etc... I'd also like to see a study utilizing titer testing to determine widespread need for multiple doses, etc. ... I don't think we can discount anecdotal evidence of regression after vaccines... But neither do I think it is a generalizable risk. It might be one of the factors. I agree there is probably a sub population that may be disproportionately impacted by vaccinations... or radio waves... or tofu.
But if I were in charge of autism research, I'd want to start with figuring out what's impacting the largest number of children with autism and they've pretty conclusively determined that it isn't vaccination, so I'd be looking for what it is instead.
So what do you think the 'big thing' might be? I think food/preservative/pesticides might be a good avenue? But I just don't know...
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2014 22:16:18 GMT -5
You know what, if you don't want to think vaccines could have any impact at all, I'm ok with that. And in that case I can't see writing off vaccines as having the possibility of contributing in certain individuals. I do think they probably have an impact in certain individuals. But the multiple studies involving thousands of children point to the number of those individuals being very, very low. So I'm not saying that across the board, vaccinations would never, ever impact any single child. Instead I'm saying that based on what we know, vaccinations aren't a primary factor in the vast majority of cases, so if it were me, I'd want to start figuring out what some of the primary factors are instead of spending much more time and money on something that may (or may not) only impact a very few. It's more of a thought on how best to spend the limited dollars and time, not a flat out statement about vaccinations being 100% absolutely safe for 100% of people.
Similar to your tomato example, there are people who will drop dead if they eat one, but that's not the case for the vast majority of people. So unfortunately unless we end up with unlimited dollars and time, we're probably going to want to focus on issues that impact the greatest number of people.
As for a guess on what the combination of factors is... I think there are certain genetic links that provide the opportunity for autism to develop and then certain environmental factors that have to trigger it into fully developed autism in most cases. Although I don't think our genes have changed quickly enough to account for all of the increased incidence, there are some societal factors that serve to concentrate certain genes. 50 years ago when fewer women went to college, fewer nerdy men and women married, for example. I think things like that concentrate certain genes. And I also think that the barrage of chemicals we're exposed to - from what we wear to what we're breathing to what we're eating - is going to produce more and more issues over time; increased autism may only be the beginning.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 22:26:09 GMT -5
I think that's probably a good avenue yo explore. I'm not sure if its being studied? I don't keep up with that research like I should... Eta I think a big problem IS trying to identify what the 'big thing' might be...
I was mostly reacting not to your post, but to the idea that vaccines have been totally cleared, and frankly to rainy's post, which I did find a bit condescending, that anyone questioning vaccines didnt have their 'facts' straight..
Or tofu, etc... Yes people have eaten foods for a long time... But today's wheat and soy and corn aren't like past crops, not to mention additives, etc..
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 28, 2014 22:32:48 GMT -5
Putting on my Flame Suit (just in case)... In a morbid sorta way... our infant mortality rate is fairly low (and it didn't use to be) and most kids these days live to adulthood. Not that long ago things like small pox, polio, diphtheria, whooping cough, measles,rubella, malaria (even in America) would take it's toll on the population. Now, not so much. Maybe that's had some impact on which babies come to term and live past 3 or 5 yrs old. I've got an "old" family - my parents were born before 1920. My mom had 3 siblings that didn't make it past 3 years old. My mom's father was one of three surviving kids out of 6. My dad was an 'only child' we suspect because he lost 2 siblings when they were children. Yeah, this was back in the 1870's thru 1940's (I've got an unnamed still born brother at the cemetery and a couple of young cousins died before 1955 - one had mental retardation of some sort - I couldn't get a clear story from any relatives as it wasn't something to talk about). I'm not implying/saying that autism 'causes' death or that they should die... just that maybe in the past when not every kid 'made it' the autistic kids would have been under the same stress/threat from various diseases (which often came in waves year after year). I don't know what health risks go along with mental retardation and/or severe autism - but maybe having additional health problems (in addition to the retardation/autism) just made it that much harder to survive childhood as it would have a kid with health problems and no autism/retardation). I did say I was morbid. Jenny McCarthy may be on to something - from the angle that we're better at making sure nearly EVERY baby survives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 22:36:32 GMT -5
Not only that, but they would have been more likely to be abandoned to an institution type setting, particularly if the socioeconomic reality didn't allow for the degree of individualized attention we generally manage these days.
Still, I think there are probably things about our society today that 'amplify' characteristics, for want of a better expression...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 28, 2014 22:39:17 GMT -5
Still, I think there are probably things about our society today that 'amplify' characteristics, for want of a better expression... Yes, I do think it's a tangled web of things and not just one specific thing that's easily fixable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 23:43:23 GMT -5
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 28, 2014 23:53:12 GMT -5
there's that, too. I could post studies about how electromagnetic fields alter the cells in our bodies, but I gotta get 'em from my mom - who is currently fighting her local electrical utility about the lines that they have moved closer to the house I grew up in. looking at the data she has collected over the past couple years, my childhood neighborhood could legitimately be declared a cancer cluster. but since it's the electrical grid and not a single polluting private company, nobody in the State House wants to hear about it. all of the Emag stuff I've seen as been in regards to adult reactions and prognoses. I haven't looked for anything about the children of people exposed to high levels. that's definitely something else to explore though! I would love to see it. Please!!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 28, 2014 23:57:15 GMT -5
I have my theories on this, but they are just that - *my* theories as I don't know science and I don't know studies, all I know is what I see.
I was TERRIFIED when I realized that I have 3 boys bc everywhere I looked - there were families with autistic boys around.
And not just autism. All kinds of disorders and issues.
I've met a lot of families with kids over the last few years and I am sitting here, trying to remember if ANY of them have kids that have no issues.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Mar 29, 2014 0:28:14 GMT -5
I think it's been sad, for me personally, to meet families with more than one child with autism, or any disability. (FYI, I've met 2 families with multiple kids.)
I think the point of this thread is, the number of kids being diagnosed with autism has been growing by leaps & bounds in the last 20 years, & no one seems to be concerned, except the people who already have an autistic child in their household. If some other problem, like cancer, was increasing this quickly, people would be falling all over themselves to figure it out. There's too much complacency out there, as in "that could never happen to MY family".
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 29, 2014 2:25:18 GMT -5
The only long term, 20+ year, study I've ever read on it found the single biggest link to be parental age at conception. The incidence rate climbed fairly dramatically with increased parental age and showed the increase from either or both parents. A young woman conceiving with an older man had just as many increased health issues in her offspring as an older woman having children.
Older parents have higher risks of damn near everything it seemed like, and people are waiting longer and longer to start families these days.
When my grandmother got pregnant with my youngest aunt at 41 her doctor recommended that she abort because of her advanced maternal age. She had no other risk factors or complications, but at the time they thought her age alone made the pregnancy too high risk to attempt. My aunt was born in 1981, so we aren't talking that long ago. The rates of all kinds of things are probably climbing in part because older parents are keeping pregnancies they would have terminated before.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 29, 2014 4:55:14 GMT -5
I think the point of this thread is, the number of kids being diagnosed with autism has been growing by leaps & bounds in the last 20 years, & no one seems to be concerned, except the people who already have an autistic child in their household. If some other problem, like cancer, was increasing this quickly, people would be falling all over themselves to figure it out. There's too much complacency out there, as in "that could never happen to MY family". I'm not sure why you think no one else seems to be concerned. Others are concerned. Look at Lena's post above - it's pretty similar to how I feel as well. I'm a nerdy CPA married to a nerdy Electrical Engineer and part of why I didn't want to have children at all was that I was worried that was way too much of a concentration of weird nerd genes and it was just asking for trouble. Now that we do have kids, we don't eat a lot of organic kale in our house because it tastes better than Oreos, it's to hopefully minimize exposure to untested chemicals and toxins (which I believe may be part of the puzzle for autism and all sorts of other issues.)
IMHO autism advocacy groups are not doing themselves any favors when they continue the extensive fight and discussion over vaccines if they want to enlist the greater population in engaging in the discussion and search for answers. If I were part of an autism advocacy group, I'd think our best bet for getting greater public awareness and funding would be to develop a proposal with some nonvaccine-realted theories to test and ways to support ongoing research of those theories so the public had a tangible, reasonable path they could understand and want to fund.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2014 7:17:49 GMT -5
How much of this is related to over diagnosing? My daughter was diagnosed on the autism spectrum when she was younger. tTechnically she met enough of the criteria to qualify but so many of the criteria overlap with any child with soecial needs. when the Psychologist gave us the diagnosis i immediately called our neurdeveloomental pediatrician (he specializes in autism). He told me that because of her delays she fits enough of the criteria to have a dual diagnosis but he assured me that she was not autistic ( very social, lovable, not a child in her own little world). But he did recommend that I accept the diagnosis because there are a lot of programs geared towards autistic kids that kids with just delays don't qualify for. We kept the diagnosis for several years and she qualified for a fantastic special needs preschool.
I am sure I am not the only parent who accepts an invalid diagnosis so services become available. The problem is that the criteria is so broad that anyone will delays will qualify under the autism umbrella.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2014 7:28:15 GMT -5
I'm a nerdy CPA married to a nerdy Electrical Engineer and part of why I didn't want to have children at all was that I was worried that was way too much of a concentration of weird nerd genes and it was just asking for trouble. Now that we do have kids, we don't eat a lot of organic kale in our house because it tastes better than Oreos, it's to hopefully minimize exposure to untested chemicals and toxins (which I believe may be part of the puzzle for autism and all sorts of other issues.) I'm not an expert on this at all, but I agree that the increase in autism is not just an increase in its diagnosis. The Actuarial discussion board I'm on periodically starts a discussion on autistic kids and there are hundreds of posts. One of the informal theories is that "nerds marrying nerds" might be a factor. And tiny, you don't need a flame suit from my point of view- I believe that we are seeing increases in some conditions (severe allergies is one) because we're saving more vulnerable babies and they tend to have higher rates of health problems as they get older. IMO, multiple severe allergies are also likely to be due to a combination of factors. As an (almost) grandmother and the mother of a wonderful son who had to learn to manage his ADD (he's the expectant father), this is a concern to me, too. My grandchildren (we're all hoping for more after this one) will be brand-new little beings with (hopefully) 80 or 90 years of life ahead of them. Whatever environmental factors are out there- pollution, soy and corn in just about everything we eat, electromagnetic waves, the crap they feed livestock- probably became more prevalent when I was old enough that my body could handle them. My grandchildren will be affected before Day 1, since some of these factors can affect reproductive cells and DDIL is exposed to them during her pregnancy. I'm also concerned about the huge cost even if it doesn't affect my own family- so many brilliant kids (and they do seem to be higher IQ on average) who may not be able to find their way in the world on their own, so many families trying desperately to nurture special-needs kids with very little support and no real cure. It affects all of us.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 29, 2014 7:29:02 GMT -5
I think it's been sad, for me personally, to meet families with more than one child with autism, or any disability. (FYI, I've met 2 families with multiple kids.)
I think the point of this thread is, the number of kids being diagnosed with autism has been growing by leaps & bounds in the last 20 years, & no one seems to be concerned, except the people who already have an autistic child in their household. If some other problem, like cancer, was increasing this quickly, people would be falling all over themselves to figure it out. There's too much complacency out there, as in "that could never happen to MY family". **I am not sure how my response will "sound" to you, so I just want to make sure that you know that I am not being argumentative, but honestly curious as I spent many many nights worrying and thinking about this topic.** Why do you think that? I hear about autism all the time. I actually think the opposite - that it's a very hot topic right now. It's being discussed everywhere. There are just as many "walks" to cure autism and there are cancer walks, etc etc
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 29, 2014 7:47:04 GMT -5
there's that, too. I could post studies about how electromagnetic fields alter the cells in our bodies, but I gotta get 'em from my mom - who is currently fighting her local electrical utility about the lines that they have moved closer to the house I grew up in. looking at the data she has collected over the past couple years, my childhood neighborhood could legitimately be declared a cancer cluster. but since it's the electrical grid and not a single polluting private company, nobody in the State House wants to hear about it. all of the Emag stuff I've seen as been in regards to adult reactions and prognoses. I haven't looked for anything about the children of people exposed to high levels. that's definitely something else to explore though! I would love to see it. Please!! next time I talk to her, I'll ask her for the study names so I can google some links for you.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 29, 2014 8:35:28 GMT -5
I would love to see it. Please!! next time I talk to her, I'll ask her for the study names so I can google some links for you. Thank you!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2014 8:59:37 GMT -5
tofu is not a new food. And the rest of the subject matter, I can't contribute to a conversation about pseudo-science. But yeah, tofu is not a new food. Just because it's new to you doesn't mean that it's new to a billion people who have been eating it for millennia without incident. I agree with that but tofu is one thing. All the soy that's working its way into processed foods is another. I'm suspicious of processing. I've seen cereal and granola bars with "Greek yogurt". If you read the fine print, it's been dehydrated (not surprising) and all active cultures were killed. That's not Greek yogurt anymore. It's some sort of powdery crap derived from Greek yogurt which is, at best, useless. I have the same suspicions for all the soy-based ingredients in processed food.
If I want to eat tofu (or feed it to my kids), I'll buy honest tofu. Don't sneak junk made from genetically-modified soy into other foods where I don't expect it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2014 9:05:18 GMT -5
Giving up corn meant giving up most processed foods... At least any mainstream ones. And it's so hard to find chocolate without soy in it...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2014 10:07:33 GMT -5
I have 3 kids in co op. And one who, I don't know that he's on the spectrum, but because his older two brothers are his learned behaviors are similar, if that makes sense...?
It does seem to be everywhere. Nerd genes. I'll have to think on that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2014 10:56:30 GMT -5
It does seem to be everywhere. Nerd genes. I'll have to think on that. As I read through this thread, I started wondering something and I'm glad I went back and read the link in the OP before I posted. Honestly, I was surprised to see the numbers in the thread title, I had no idea that so many children are being diagnosed with autism. What I started wondering was, if it's increased so much, who are the children around me that are autistic. Because I have kids, children are a common topic of conversations that I have at work, with my neighbors, friends and family. We talk about the good and the bad. A lot of my coworkers, I've never met their children, but I've seen so many pictures and heard so much about them, I almost feel like I know them. I know some families that have children with special needs, and their parents have shared their children's particular diagnosis, but it's never been autism. From the article linked in the OP: Aside from that, much in the latest CDC report echoes earlier findings. Autism and related disorders continue to be diagnosed far more often in boys than girls, and in whites than blacks or Hispanics. The racial and ethnic differences probably reflects white communities’ greater focus on looking for autism and white parents’ access to doctors, because there’s no biological reason to believe whites get autism more than other people, CDC officials said at a press briefing Thursday.
I don't know a lot of people that don't take their children to see a doctor if they think something's wrong, so I'm not sure lack of access to doctors is why I don't personally know of anyone with a child diagnosed with autism (that I'm aware of, of course). I also don't know of anyone that's admitted to refusing to get their children's vaccinations. I'm not a doctor or a scientist, but I know there are some physical medical conditions that occur in higher percentages of the black population when compared to the white population, but I'm not sure of the reasons. As I read through the thread, I was wondering if autism is diagnosed more often in white children than black children or Hispanic children, which the article confirmed. Even if no one has discovered biological reasons to explain why, maybe there's something else there that can lead us down the road to understanding why the diagnoses are increasing. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my curiosity. It could just be that I don't know many super nerds with children too. (That was an attempt at adding a little light-heartedness to a serious subject). I do think it's a cause for concern, whether I personally know someone with an autistic child or not and I think we do need answers regarding why more children are being diagnosed with it. I have a grandson and a granddaughter on the way. My other child might have children one day. My grandchildren will have children one day. And we need to know how the things we're exposing them to really affect them because obviously something is happening if we're seeing more children with diagnoses that didn't occur at these rates in previous generations.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 29, 2014 11:03:13 GMT -5
We're all breathing AIR.
No one's brought up pollution yet... I read/saw an article on line (in the recent past) that talked about a possible connection to air pollution. America's got it's share of that - from factories to cars (think about the 1950's and 1960's and 1970's? Anybody else remember the crying Indian? (which was probably more about trash than car emmisions but still sticks in my mind).
We've pulled DDT (NPR just did a segment on Cooper Hawks in the City - it seems there's more of them -most likely because people stopped killing them as pests (back in the 70's) and probably because DDT has worked it's way out of the ecosystem). So, DDT sticks around for some time (decades) even after it's use stops. And then there's the emissions from cars... think the 60's and 70's before catalytic converters and removing the lead from gas... Who knows what other stuff is out there...
Don't even want to go to the chemicals belched and poured out of factories back in the day (China's dealing with this problem now... so it hasn't gone away just because we've regulated how much emissions are OK for OUR factories).
Maybe we should have done more about pollution back then - maybe we should do more about it now.
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