NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Mar 11, 2014 16:25:19 GMT -5
jras, go to counseling on your own, if she won't go. If nothing else, you will get some insight for yourself. You cannot make her go. You can only take care of yourself.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Mar 11, 2014 16:45:15 GMT -5
Could you find a way to bring people into your home. Something like another couple or a few guy friends coming for poker night every other weekend would give her something to look forward to or dread and complain about. She might be bored and lonely but unwilling to find her own social network. If she is so handicapped she can't work or clean her own house she really has nothing to do to feel useful. If you invite guest to your house she can spend days thinking of what to serve and what needs cleaned first. More work for you but might be worth it. Can you hire a housekeeper? Then she would need to supervise that and less for you to do. You might use the extra time for romantic gestures like candle lit dinners.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 11, 2014 17:36:17 GMT -5
jras I feel bad for you because you seem so much like my father.
I think some people like feeling happy and do things to put themselves in a happy mood, while other people really enjoy being mad. It seemed as though my mother needed some person in her life to focus her outrage on, and often, especially when the kids left home, it was my dad. My dad used to wash the dishes for her, and she would get furious if he put things away in the wrong spot, but if he left them out on the counter because he didn't know where she wanted them to go, she got just as furious. Literally, the man couldn't do anything right.
I hope you go see a counselor about this. Even if your wife won't go, the counselor can help you decide how to handle her. And maybe, if you discuss with your wife that you're not happy at the current state of your marriage, it will motivate her enough to join you in counseling. I think part of the reason my mom was so awful to my dad was she believed, due to his religion, he would never leave her, so she could be just as mean as she wanted to be.
As we say down here, bless your heart and good luck.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 11, 2014 18:39:14 GMT -5
jras: I second-third-fourth-fifth-and-sixth what everyone has said about getting yourself into therapy - even if she won't go. YOU need to get some clarity about the status of your relationship. If she won't or can't participate in addressing and fixing what is "wrong" between you - then I'm sad to tell you that your marriage is not going to survive. It takes two people to make a marriage solid and happy. You CANNOT be both of those people! As others have said, it is not your job to fix her - it is your job to understand and fix you. If she comes along for the ride, you can breathe a huge sigh of relief. If she doesn't - well it is going to be really painful in the short-term, but eventually you will be happier and much better off not getting dragged down emotionally every day by someone who is so unhappy/depressed/unmotivated/whatever that they cannot see past the end of their nose.
I'm so sorry this is happening to you! Take good care of yourself. Practice some radical self-love right now, because you need it. Hugs to you.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Mar 11, 2014 19:02:10 GMT -5
If she won't or can't participate in addressing and fixing what is "wrong" between you - then I'm sad to tell you that your marriage is not going to survive. You cannot say this. You cannot presume to know what the OP is going to do. You cannot tell the OP, that his marriage will not survive. Maybe the marriage will not be an emotionally intimate marriage, but you cannot say with certainty that the legal contract will be broken. My parents have been married for over 40 years now, even with the dysfunction, the abuse, the outright refusal to treat clinical depression and a likely personality disorder. My dad loves my mom so much that he was willing to sacrifice my emotional health and well being to try and please my mom, make her happy, take care of her. He takes is role of husband so seriously that he felt his duty is to her first and foremost, rather than to protect me. I think my dad stayed for many, many reasons, even when the better suggestion would have been to get out. Pride, duty about a "man's" job, love, likely wanting to have some access to me, fear of the unknown, fear over finances, low self esteem, trust issues, the pain of leaving was still more than the pain of staying..it goes on and on.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 11, 2014 19:17:39 GMT -5
If she won't or can't participate in addressing and fixing what is "wrong" between you - then I'm sad to tell you that your marriage is not going to survive. You cannot say this. You cannot presume to know what the OP is going to do. You cannot tell the OP, that his marriage will not survive. Maybe the marriage will not be an emotionally intimate marriage, but you cannot say with certainty that the legal contract will be broken. My parents have been married for over 40 years now, even with the dysfunction, the abuse, the outright refusal to treat clinical depression and a likely personality disorder. My dad loves my mom so much that he was willing to sacrifice my emotional health and well being to try and please my mom, make her happy, take care of her. He takes is role of husband so seriously that he felt his duty is to her first and foremost, rather than to protect me. I think my dad stayed for many, many reasons, even when the better suggestion would have been to get out. Pride, duty about a "man's" job, love, likely wanting to have some access to me, fear of the unknown, fear over finances, low self esteem, trust issues, the pain of leaving was still more than the pain of staying..it goes on and on. Yeah - I kinda can - based on what the OP said himself. He stated she is ready to divorce and throw everything away. Sure doesn't sound like she wants the marriage to survive - does it?. But again - I was responding to what he himself said, I was not passing some sort of judgement like you seem to be implying.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Mar 11, 2014 20:23:35 GMT -5
Yeah - I kinda can - based on what the OP said himself. He stated she is ready to divorce and throw everything away. Sure doesn't sound like she wants the marriage to survive - does it?. But again - I was responding to what he himself said, I was not passing some sort of judgement like you seem to be implying. No, I didn't think it was judgement. Maybe, though, my cue that I need to leave this thread alone for my own sanity. But, just because the wife says she wants a divorce or threatens divorce doesn't mean she's going to act on it. In fact, it doesn't make sense, unless she finds a lawyer that is willing to make house calls. It doesn't make sense that OP's wife has the where-with-all to get out and get herself to a lawyer or even shop around for a lawyer that will work with her but too depressed/physically unable to run a dishwasher or fold a load of laundry while watching tv/surfing the net. It doesn't make sense, presumably that she can't get out of the house to engage with other folks for whatever reason-either to work on her health or to make some friends, but she CAN go out and retain a lawyer. I don't know how common it is for lawyers to make house calls, and OP did not indicate that he saw the actual bills from the lawyer that is making said house calls. OP did not say his wife showed him the business card of three lawyers she went to visit in order to start the divorce process. When I told my H he could either sober up and stay married or continue to be an addict and I'd divorce him, I gave him 4 days to decide and then proceeded to show him the business card of the lawyer I visited and shared what I had learned about the divorce process with my H. I also told him my plan of how we were going to make co-parenting work logistically. I wasn't ready to throw in the towel, but I had to show that I was serious. A quick deadline, proof that I had seen a lawyer, and earnest work on an exist strategy I think accomplished that. And OPs wife may decide, for whatever reason, even though she's had enough, staying may be better for her. Maybe she hit the height of her frustration, said she wanted to throw it away, and when her frustration subsides, maybe that will be the end of it for the time being. Until she goes through her emotional cycles again.. In the OPs shoes, I wouldn't go by words. I'd go by actions.
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bookkeeper
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Post by bookkeeper on Mar 12, 2014 8:49:12 GMT -5
You and your wife need to plan an event or trip. Often times, people with depression feel like there is nothing in life to look forward to, just more of the same old, day in day out stuff.
Years back, I had some relationship and depression issues and my counselor encouraged my DH and I to plan date nights, weekends away, vacations 6 months out, that kind of thing. It doesn't have to be expensive. But it does have to be followed through.
It is true that when you have something to look forward to, you are not obsessing on how crappy your life is right now.
Another thing I learned is that couples often times stop doing things that they enjoyed when they were first together. Think about what your wife liked to do when you first met. Plan an activity or day trip around those likes. If you do the planning the first few times, maybe she will pick up the ball and learn that she can enjoy time with you, just like she used to.
One last thing I learned is to leave alcohol in the cupboard when working on relationship issues. DH and I enjoy our wine and cocktails in the evening, but alcohol has very little place in a relationship where the partners are struggling. The counselor we used advised us never to argue or discuss our marriage when anyone had been drinking. Sobriety keeps everybody playing their A game when the chips are down.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Mar 12, 2014 14:27:45 GMT -5
I came here to the board with marital troubles. It was very reassuring and helpful to get feedback from people who were not vested in the situation.
I really really appreciated it. (sorry, I don't think I said so earlier in my own thread)
Even though, I am the last person that you should take advice from, here it goes.
I think that her anger issues are her own and you should stop thinking that you are the reason. When people have issues like that, they often use the closet person (you) as the person to blame for all their misery.
She is clearly have emotional difficulties. She does need to see someone professionally.
Sometimes a change or event can wake people up. If she is threatening divorce, tell her that you DO NOT want that, but you want her happiness, and if that will make her happy, then you will accept her decision.
Either she wakes up and realizes that she is more miserable without you, and comes back to you or she truly is happier alone, and if that is the case, you let her go.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 14, 2014 12:48:23 GMT -5
I have a friend who is a military spouse, and dealing with this sort of thing now. I think that batting away others is the only thing that makes her happy. When you tell someone how excited you are to see them, and their reply is a bunch of flimsy pathetic lazy excuses (one of which contained the phrase "soul destroying") then the only conclusion is that they are determined to be miserable. Until they are no longer "happily miserable"(c), there isn't much to be done.
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jras
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Post by jras on Mar 14, 2014 14:40:38 GMT -5
An update.
This has been quite the see-saw for us in the past few days. Things are immeasurably better now. The "doomsday clock" was ringing out the 12 strokes of midnight. But they were interrupted and now the clock has been set back to morning.
I know there are some issues in our relationship, like with anyone. But amazingly they are very few and represent only a very few specific points. Overall I feel we have a very good, solid relationship.
I have suspected that some of the turmoil specifically over the past few years have been driven in part by hormonal stress...not that I even want to suggest that in the middle of things! But it does seem to play a part. Things turned around totally since my last posts. The turmoil coincided with DW's 'monthly', and has relieved itself as this other relieved itself as well. This is not to say that this is the only cause of the turmoil and problems. But I think that hormonal issues (nearing menopause as well, and all that in combination with underlying health issues as well as depression over health issues) exacerbates the situation and causes her to dwell on things many times over.
I (and we) have to do serious thinking and planning before next month's possible storm.
I truly appreciate everyone's comments and insights. As someone mentioned, this really is a community, one that supports its members.
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JustLurkin
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Post by JustLurkin on Mar 14, 2014 15:47:20 GMT -5
She should still visit a GP and a GYN, there are many conditions other than menopause that can cause hormonal problems.
Glad the two of you are working on making things better.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Mar 14, 2014 15:58:04 GMT -5
She should still visit a GP and a GYN, there are many conditions other than menopause that can cause hormonal problems.
Glad the two of you are working on making things better. I went through it. Taking oral hormones now. Believe me, it was either that or homicide. Hormones are a lot less messy. And no paperwork.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Mar 14, 2014 16:02:59 GMT -5
She should still visit a GP and a GYN, there are many conditions other than menopause that can cause hormonal problems.
Glad the two of you are working on making things better. I went through it. Taking oral hormones now. Believe me, it was either that or homicide. Hormones are a lot less messy. And no paperwork. Or prison orange. I also take BC pills for the moods vs the no kids. I'd pick a different method if it was just for the no kids. These do the best at keeping me level all the time. I used to wake up homicidally angry that I was awake before. I'm not out of my 30s yet. If you think it's unpleasant to live with, imagine not being able to walk away from it because it's YOU. It sucks.
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Mar 15, 2014 2:57:14 GMT -5
Thanks Nancy. I've always appreciated your well-grounded insights. Yes, she's been angry about a lot of things for a few years. Very angry at some of her family members, to the point of severing ties with them. She's quite insightful into people and herself. I don't know why she drives this pattern. I fell into a pattern of reply to it but I have tried to break that, a long time ago. She has all the time in the world to ponder things and reflect and surf and read. I have to go to work, maintain the house, etc. It's not fair that she can 'jiu jitsu' me this way...using what she learns in her studies to twist me up. Thanks, jras. You mentioned her being angry at family members, to the point of cutting them out of her life. Once those ties are severed, she has fewer and few people to target. Her world has and is, getting smaller and smaller. And as the main "bull's eye," you are getting to be a bigger and easier target, because as you say, you have fallen into a pattern of replying to her. Time to break the pattern, but I would not suggest doing it with a sledgehammer. You won't accomplish anything, except making her madder and more distant. If you are truly interested in saving and working on this relationship, start by not responding to her when she goes negative. I realize that may mean a lot of silence in your house, but she will keep on her pattern, if she keeps getting what she wants out of you. Obviously, the response you give her (being the sole moneymaker, taking care of the house, etc.) works very well for her. I understand she has health issues, and if these are physical, her GP and any appropriate specialists need to get involved to solve, or at least manage them. Her health issues do not give her the right to cruel, inhuman, heartless or indifferent treatment of her spouse. If she is not happy, what is SHE doing to change that? Even people with issues, have options, and some responsibility for their own happiness. It's hard to see that when 1- you are very depressed. 2- You don't really want to. 3- You are totally focused on someone or something else. 4- You don't have to. Take care of you, too. I hope you can/will be happy soon. (((BIG hugs)))
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Mar 15, 2014 3:03:13 GMT -5
I'm glad things are looking better at the moment. I'm also glad you are posting. It's nice to meet you!
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 17, 2014 7:22:56 GMT -5
An update. This has been quite the see-saw for us in the past few days. Things are immeasurably better now. The "doomsday clock" was ringing out the 12 strokes of midnight. But they were interrupted and now the clock has been set back to morning. I know there are some issues in our relationship, like with anyone. But amazingly they are very few and represent only a very few specific points. Overall I feel we have a very good, solid relationship. I have suspected that some of the turmoil specifically over the past few years have been driven in part by hormonal stress...not that I even want to suggest that in the middle of things! But it does seem to play a part. Things turned around totally since my last posts. The turmoil coincided with DW's 'monthly', and has relieved itself as this other relieved itself as well. This is not to say that this is the only cause of the turmoil and problems. But I think that hormonal issues (nearing menopause as well, and all that in combination with underlying health issues as well as depression over health issues) exacerbates the situation and causes her to dwell on things many times over. I (and we) have to do serious thinking and planning before next month's possible storm. I truly appreciate everyone's comments and insights. As someone mentioned, this really is a community, one that supports its members. jras I was one of those fortunate women who didn't usually have a lot of physical or hormonal problems around my period, but when I started going through menopause everything went screwy. It was like driving a scooter that was either in the lowest gear or the highest and you had no control over which one it was. I would imagine if you wife has other health issues and depression on top of the pre-menopausal problems she probably feels seriously unhinged at times. I hope she is receptive to visiting her OB/GYN and also a counselor, I'm sure both can help her with this. Good luck.
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jras
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Post by jras on Jun 3, 2014 13:01:51 GMT -5
Another update.
Things seem to improve. Then she gets sad and depressed over old issues and things go bad again. I just don't know how to get off this cycle. She accuses me of see-sawing, not having given her the love she needs, not obliterating old hurts that I caused. Yet she see-saws as well, she's loving for a week, then it gets ugly. And she has been getting mean, which is totally against her nature. Not to say that this is induced by hormones or anything, I think it just shows the stress this gives her.
So, I went to a marriage counselor, one visit so far and more to come. He asked if she would come. He called her and invited her, then she got mad at me for letting him call her. So I don't think she'll go. She thinks all the power to fix things is in my hands.
She blames me for keeping her in this 'miserable relationship', yet she could have followed the old Paul Simon song "slip out the back, mac", etc.
She says I ignore the direness of the situation, that it is hopeless and she is gone, making her exit plan. Yet I have actually made contingency financial plans (true to my YM, and which was very painful to do). I figure she would get 1/2 of assets accumulated during marriage, none of mine from before, nor an inheritance. This results in a pretty darn large amount of money (not 7 figures but half-way there). She's not worked, nor brought in money otherwise, and that's been fine. But when I presented this to her she was so angry. Then went into saying she doesn't want a darn cent of the money from me.
well, just venting and trying to focus my thoughts. I have to keep my descriptions a bit vague too, the internet has ears.
What about my divorce $plit? Was that selfish? Did it make her mad that I was actually "going there"?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 3, 2014 13:06:40 GMT -5
Has she seen her GP and GYN? If she won't make an appt, is there a way for you to make one for her and get her in there?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 3, 2014 13:06:59 GMT -5
Things seem to improve. Then she gets sad and depressed over old issues and things go bad again. I just don't know how to get off this cycle
She needs therapy and possibly medication, it sounds like she's bipolar if she cycles. Unfortunately bi-polar people can be very hard to treat because they don't recognize anything is wrong during high periods, then they crash/burn. It's also very common for them to start medication then stop it thinking they are "fine".
You can't fix her problems, she has to fix her problems and it is a shame that she lies all the blame on you. That is an unfair burden to place on you. Humans are fallible and when we count on others to save us from ourselves it'll always be doomed to failure. And in turn we drag those poor people right down into the pit with us.
You need to get yourself a divorce lawyer stat because you're not going to be dealing with someone who is rational/logical. Who knows what is going to be thrown at you as this progresses. You need to make sure everything is 100% above board and legit. Do not try to hammer out an agreement with your wife on your own.
And no you are not selfish, you need to look out for your own best interests. She sure as hell isn't going to look out for them. You're under no obligations to try to fix or stick with someone who refuses to get help and fix her problems. You've given it a try and she's making it clear she has no interest in anything other than blaming you for all the world's problems. Time to start thinking about yourself.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 3, 2014 13:20:08 GMT -5
As far as the divorce split ($$), she will get whatever your State laws specify - unless you can bargain for some other arrangement. If you are really concerned about protecting financial assets, file for a legal separation. The separation will "fix" in time the legal date for valuation and splitting of the marital assets. You can always withdraw the separation papers, just like you can withdraw divorce papers. I'm sooooo sorry you are going through this, Ras. It is really tough, I know - especially since you still love her. She sounds like she is struggling with bi-polar issues. That is not a "cycle" YOU can "get off of." That is HER issue. I know how hard it is to get help for someone who doesn't want it, but maybe you could try to get her a medical evaluation? And as TOUGH as it is to remember, keep trying to remember that you can't "make" her do anything. You are NOT responsible for her feelings! SHE is responsible for them. You are only responsible for your behavior, just like she is responsible for hers. You cannot control how she reacts to your behavior. You can only "go forward" if both of you are willing to squarely face what happened (neglect, unfaithfulness etc), deal with it and let it go. If both of you cannot do that, you cannot go forward . If you cannot go forward as a couple, then you have to sadly put her issues aside and take care of yourself so your future is not in jeopardy. Hugs going out to you! ETA: Drama beat me to it - and said it more eloquently, too.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 3, 2014 13:47:10 GMT -5
Retaining the services of a divorce attorney may knock your wife's head into the reality of the situation. It could get her attention and put her on the road to getting help.
Then again, it could be the thing that spirals her way, way out of control.
Either way, she has to make a decision on what's next. You should not spend your life as a combination punching bag/target. Put some physical distance between you and your wife, or at least be prepared to do so if her anger cycle escalates.
Do not attempt to reason, control or talk her into anything. If she is bipolar, and it certainly sounds like she might be, there's no logic or sanity coming from her side. I'm not suggesting she's crazy or insane; only that her behavior is not within normal controls.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 3, 2014 13:49:03 GMT -5
You should not spend your life as a combination punching bag/target. Sooooooooooooo much this! ! ! ^^^^^^^^^^
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jras
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Post by jras on Jun 3, 2014 13:51:02 GMT -5
Thank you again, all, for your comments.
I want to lay to rest that she may be bipolar. I really do not think this is the case. There may be other things going on: depression, hormones, fantasy dream world...but not bipolar.
Yes, I do not want to escalate things and spiral out of control.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 3, 2014 13:54:02 GMT -5
Thank you again, all, for your comments. I want to lay to rest that she may be bipolar. I really do not think this is the case. There may be other things going on: depression, hormones, fantasy dream world...but not bipolar. Yes, I do not want to escalate things and spiral out of control.You may not get a choice, is what I'm getting at. You can show all the love, compassion and patience on earth when it comes to dealing with someone's irrational behavior. You might as well throw wiffle balls at an oncoming tank. You won't stop the complaining, the tears, the threats, the accusations. Nothing you do will be good, or good enough.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 3, 2014 13:54:07 GMT -5
I'm sorry for you. My best wishes that this works for both of you, whatever the outcome.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 3, 2014 14:08:58 GMT -5
I want to lay to rest that she may be bipolar. I really do not think this is the case.
She might not be, it's mainly a suggestion that should be looked into at the moment.
You're not in a position to determine what's wrong with her. She needs to get herself to a licensed psychiatrist and get formally diagnosed. Until she accepts she has a problem and gets help for you don't know what the heck is going on.
You can play arm chair psychologist all day long but it isn't going to solve anything.
Fantasy dream worlds are a problem (this could actually be worse than being diagnosed bi-polar depending on how far into fantasy land she is), untreated depression is a problem. Hormones left to go amok are a problem.
All these things are just as big an issue as bi-polar disorder and need to be looked into by a trained professional.
You don't know what kind of diagnosis she'd get. She could end up with something far worse than bi-polar disorder. You just plain don't know because she refuses to seek out help.
It's not your job to try to diagnose it and help "cure" her. She needs a professional whether either one of you want to admit it or not.
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jras
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Post by jras on Jun 3, 2014 14:28:22 GMT -5
You can play arm chair psychologist all day long but it isn't going to solve anything.
...
It's not your job to try to diagnose it and help "cure" her. She needs a professional whether either one of you want to admit it or not.
Point taken.
I think she could benefit from personal counseling but she would resist like the dickens.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 3, 2014 14:31:57 GMT -5
If she resists, AFTER you ask and make clear that she goes and tries to get help or you're done, then you know all you need to know about how she REALLY feels about you/your marriage.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,090
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 3, 2014 14:33:06 GMT -5
I think she could benefit from personal counseling but she would resist like the dickens
And sadly there is nothing you can do to prevent that. If she's a competent adult you can't force them to get care/treatment. She has to be the one to decide she needs help.
If she refuses to even consider the possibility the problem might be HER instead of you then you have your answer as far as your marriage goes.
Some people are either too far gone to see they need help or just plain don't care. I don't know which category your wife falls into.
However it's clear that you and the marriage come dead last if she won't acknowledge the fact that common denominator in all her unhappiness is her.
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