Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 4, 2014 12:42:10 GMT -5
I like Berlin - it's a great city for just walking around it. They were moving Checkpoint Charlie to a Museum and I think I've got pictures of it dangling from a crane. I'm not sure if the "real" checkpoint Charlie is in the museum or back outside for tourists.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 12:44:04 GMT -5
Some of the countries may just be a one-day stop to go see something. "Since we're close, may as well" kind of thing. The Netherlands got added when my son came up with one thing he wanted to do there. It is something that could be accomplished in a couple hours, but HE wants to do it, so it's on the list. We're ok if we don't do anything else there. So there are a few areas like this on our list, we're not trying to see entire counries in a day or two by any means.
And, I would be fine with just a day in Paris. It's one of those places I'd want to spend a couple weeks later, so no need to try to do it all there now. I still have family in France and already know that country will require a more commited trip in the future.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 4, 2014 12:57:48 GMT -5
I don't have any suggestions because I'd want to see everything. But I hope you have a great time!!!!
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wyouser
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Post by wyouser on Mar 4, 2014 13:07:24 GMT -5
There are good museums at the Dachau Concentration camp outside Munich. The exhibit and museum at Buchenwald camp outside Weimar is good. The Nazi party rally gounds still exist in Nuremburg. There is a good museum at the unfinished Kongresshalle next to the party grounds in Nuremburg. There is a good museum at Peenemunde on the Island of Usedom where the V-1 and V-2 were developed and tested. Berchtesgaden has the Eagles nest and part on the underground portion of Hitler's Berghof exist there. There are some points of interest in Berlin. Goerings air ministry building survived. The building and courtyard where some of the conspiritors of the july 1944 assassination attempt on Hitler were executed is still there. The Poles have opened up the grounds of Hitlers Rastenburg headquarters in former East Prussia to the Public. I believe some of the Siefried Line fortifications along the border with France can be seen as well as parts of the Maginot line on the French side. If you wander around, there are many things you can run across. I agree, 5 weeks is not much time for all there is to see.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Mar 4, 2014 15:09:55 GMT -5
I think your list is ambitious for 5 weeks, especially Ifyou are planning on seeing non-WWII places as well. For instance, you can spend a week in Paris and miss stuff. JMHO ITA. I would stick to maybe 2 big countries and then 1 or 2 day trips around to a smaller one.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 4, 2014 15:11:35 GMT -5
Damn...will you adopt me??
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Mar 4, 2014 16:22:21 GMT -5
Our 5 week trip about 8 years ago included Amsterdam, Neurenburg, Vienna, Salsburg. The trip just a couple years ago had London, Brussels, Dresden and Berlin before going to Vienna. All of those cities will have WWII things ....... especially memorials to the Jewish.
Berlin has bronze plates about 4 inches square in the sidewalks with the names of the Jews that lived there and were sent to concentration camps. When we saw Check Point Charlie during out 2011 trip it was the same check point that DH remembered going through when he and DW#1 were stationed in Germany in mid 60s. The check point museum there is great. I've often wondered if I would have the courage to help people escape.
Have a great trip and just choose a few things. Rail travel is easy. The only thing I had problems with is finding a self serve laundry ............. Few and far between. We flew into London and took the Chunnel to Brussels.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 4, 2014 17:26:26 GMT -5
This isn't WWII history, but it's WWI history, and a fascinating site - Verdun, France.
There was a massive battle there during WWI, with enormous casualties on both sides. I remember the most heart wrenching part was a trench where an explosion nearby covered the soldiers in the trench, burying them alive, and now only the tips of their bayonets are visible. They left it like that. There is also a massive monument where they piled all the bones they found under the monument, and you could walk around the outside looking at all the remains stacked inside. Chilling.
It's in the French countryside, I got there by bus on a school trip, possibly you could see if they have van trips over from Thionville or one of other surounding cities.
I would say the D-Day beaches in Normandy, as well. And Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam is very touching, it's amazing so many people lived crowded into such a tiny space.
The military museum in Paris is also very good.
One place I didn't get to visit but always wanted to see is Bruges - You can get to Brussels from Paris on a high speed rail, then take a second train over to Bruges. It was one of the major European cities for trade from the 12th to the 15th century, but then it's access to the ocean silted up, trade was cut off and people moved away. Because of that, the city went mostly untouched up until modern times, when it was rediscovered as a popular tourist site, because it still looks so much like it did back in midevil times. Not WWII history, but crammed with middle ages history.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Mar 4, 2014 19:25:16 GMT -5
Apple, I assume that you're going to visit Normandy. If you are, I think it is well worth the additional cost to take one of the small group guided tours. Our Normandy guide made the week we spent on the beaches a spectacularly informative trip. So much so that we're starting to plan to go back for another, more in depth history lesson.
I think one of the things that would be worth seeing is the Maginot Line (I haven't seen it yet). I think it's kind of a lesson in how complacency and changes in technology came together and allowed the Germans to overrun France in short order.
I asked our Normandy tour guide, a Leeds educated historian and former military historian with the Royal Artillery, for a recommended reading list. If your son would like study up on the invasion, I'd be willing to share it.
Maybe a question would would help you and your son plan your trip. What do you want to get out of this trip? Do you want to see the terrain where the war was fought? Try to understand why the war started? Learn how the war affected the soldiers who fought it? Find out how the war affected the local population in combat zones? Learn about how soldiers lived and what kinds of behavior were allowed (think taking of war prizes, how soldiers were housed, and fed, etc.)? Do you want to learn about the equipment that the soldiers used? How did the Allies prepare Normandy for the invaision? How did the Germans prepare to defend against an invasion? These are the types of questions I might have tried to find answers to if I had been smarter about WWII before we went to France. Now, I'm planning a return trip to learn answers to questions that I have figured out after having visited Normandy. And, I'm starting to understand that it may take several trips to learn everything I'd like to know.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 22:25:21 GMT -5
I've never been to Europe but I would want to go to the Black Forest in Germany! My uncle went to Poland last Spring and he traveled to several cities and really enjoyed it. I don't remember off hand everywhere he went but Krakow(sp) was one city. Places in Poland will be the hardest for me to pull off since it is the farthest from the other places we want to see. I need to do more research and find out how long it would take to travel to Krakow or Warsaw by train. It wasn't on my original list, but we want to at least get there. The Black Forest on the list if it is close enough to other things we want to see (I really need to sit down with a map!) There is a castle I want to see there, but can't remember what it is called. Germany is one place I want to go and see several times, or spend a month and base myself in one or two places so I don't have to haul luggage around.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 22:32:33 GMT -5
It might be a good idea to start by flying into Amsterdam, and then work your way across Europe from there. Belgium, France, Germany, Austria, Poland- something like that order. Between rail travel and day tours, you should be able to see just about everything in that period of time. I took a WWI/WWII field trip with my history prof. while I was in grad school in Belgium and can either list some of the places we visited or PM them to you if you would like. I'd love more info! Here or PM is great Is there an advantage to flying into Amsterdam? I have thought of flying into France and then making a semi-loop. I *think* the family homestead is in Bordeaux, but not positive (it was there or one other city). I had thought of starting near there, and spending the first day or two getting over jetlag and maybe meeting some distant relatives (my dad's cousin has visited them a few times). Then traveling up to the beaches of Normandy and on from there. One thing that could have a big affect on where I start and end will be the cost of airline tickets. However, on a trip this size, I will do what makes sense land-wise if it's just a few hundred difference in ticket costs.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 22:49:51 GMT -5
Years ago we did a month in Germany (my In Laws were living there at the time). We "headquartered" at their house outside Wurtzburg. During the week while FIL was at work we would tour the little villages around them and on the weekends we'd go on a side trip. We spent time in Amsterdam, Salzburg, Prague and Frankfort. It was freaking awesome.
DS will be staying in Northern Germany for a month this summer. His host family knows he is a huge history buff so they plan on taking him to Berlin for a long weekend because they thought he'd get a kick out of that.
I'll email his host family and see if they have any suggestions. I would appreciate that! Your son reminds me of mine-- smart, loves history, and is a sarcastic little craphead Hope he has a great time in Germany! I would have loved to do that in high school (was *this close* to getting to be a foreign exchange student for a year).
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 4, 2014 22:50:55 GMT -5
I have been to France a few times but never made it to Mont Saint-Michel. Worth a trip in my book and it is in Normandy.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 22:51:48 GMT -5
Our plan was England for two weeks, Paris for a week, then take two weeks to get from Paris to Denmark, via Belguim, Netherlands, and Germany. No WWII emphasis, just showing our kids different cultures, etc. That is before we got DS's bill for braces. I think we can swing two weeks, though. We'll probably spend it in England. Highly recommend this: www.hrp.org.uk/TowerOfLondon/WhatsOn/theceremonyofthekeysIt's free, you just have to plan ahead to send in for the tickets and pick dates.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 22:55:27 GMT -5
And find debthaven2 - she's living outside of Paris. Her youngest might be about your boy's age. Not sure on that. And Ratchets, while deployed right now, I think is based in England. He might have suggestions too. I have no suggestions but I'm damn jealous right now. Thanks I got the travel bug when I was little and going through photos of my grandparents on vacation. I didn't get to fly on a plane until I was 25, but I always knew I was going to "travel big" someday. I'd love to do two weeks a year, every year.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 22:57:31 GMT -5
Ok, quoting everything will take forever tonight!
So, thanks again for all the ideas, and I'm going to keep reading.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 23:29:09 GMT -5
milee -- thanks for the tip on Ex Officio. I'll have to start looking them up. I also get a travel magazine that has some quick wash/dry clothing, so will have to keep my eye on clearance sales. I prefer to do the trips in the spring, but one good thing about summer is less clothing to haul around. I would not have thought of ebay. Any more clothing recommendations? I'm fine with washing things in the sink and drying them on a line overnight/over two days. I may have to learn how to wear a dress, seems like that could be easier in some cases xia -- Czech Republic is on the list now (forgot about it!). Even if it is mostly just a pass-through (will have to see how we do on time). The Ludice Monument looks haunting. @athena53 -- the bike tour may have to wait for a second trip, but looks fun. My son isn't the most coordinated and it's been a while since he's ridden a bike... muttleynfelix -- kids are crazy expensive, aren't they! Some days I think my son misses out not having siblings, but I could not do half the things we do if I had another child siralynn -- did you do Dachau as a tour? Or did you just take a bus there? It is one of the places we will likely visit. steph08 -- Auschwitz is the main reason we will see Poland. I wasn't sure if we should just take a bus in, visit, and leave, or try to stay in Krakow a day or two. Communication is going to be one of the things making this trip difficult already, so not sure how much time/energy I can invest in it for this time around. Did you do the Normandy tour with the WWII Museum at Caen? I'm undecided how I want to tackle this part, it seems so far from everything else. But, if I do start in Bordeaux, that may change it.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 4, 2014 23:49:44 GMT -5
Wisconsin Beth -- was it difficult to get to the salt mines? Do they have it set up like a museum? I can't believe it's only been 25 years since the wall came down!? Berlin is on the list, and some day I want to go back and spend more time there. Lizard Queen -- What were your favorite places in Krakow? Schindler's list was both a great book and a great movie. I saw the movie before I read the book, and was amazed about the facts behind the girl in the red coat. She was a real girl, and they knew who she was. @debthaven2 -- I LOVE old prisons! It's like this horrible guilty pleasure. Things that are fascinating and make me cringe at the same time <shudder> Thanks for all the ideas Do you mind if I PM you as I get closer to the trip? I may have some more specific questions by then. It is a lot of countries, but some will only be a day or two stops, leaving more time for other areas. I also don't really do shopping, so that gives more time as well (other than food markets and an occasional gift shop if it looks promising. I don't try to get souvenirs anymore, other than postcards and a Christmas ornament from each country). We'll be like zombies by the time we are done, always up early and back to the room late (um, usually because I got lost walking around ) Is the US cemetery easy to get to? We'll be limited by the fact it will all have to be trains/buses. I come from a small town with no buses and a single taxi car, so public transportation is still daunting.
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MarleyKeezy78
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Post by MarleyKeezy78 on Mar 4, 2014 23:52:57 GMT -5
Neuschwanstein Castle? It's the fairytale castle in Germany and I think that would be awesome to see I can ask my Uncle what cities he visited and let you know, I think he was gone for about a week or so. That may help on planning for you.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 5, 2014 0:10:03 GMT -5
sesfw -- I also sometimes wonder what I could have/would have done. It just all seems so crazy to think about it. As far as the laundry, I'll probably have to make do with washing things in the sink, huh? Longest I've done is two weeks, but I'll have to get creative this time. happyhoix -- Bruges sounds fascinating! I really enjoy medieval history. It is one of the reasons I chose Ireland and the UK as our first trip. DS loved everything about castles, etc then. Would that be doable in a day? It sounds like it would be fun (tourist trap or no...) We won't be solely focused on WWII. DS pretty much enjoys most history, so things like this are good as well. Verdun, France also sounds interesting. I remember watching the movie Gallipoli in high school, and at the end, wanting to yell. I know that wasn't in France, but it was the first time that the messiness of trench fighting really hit me.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 5, 2014 0:15:37 GMT -5
Apple, I assume that you're going to visit Normandy. If you are, I think it is well worth the additional cost to take one of the small group guided tours. Our Normandy guide made the week we spent on the beaches a spectacularly informative trip. So much so that we're starting to plan to go back for another, more in depth history lesson. I think one of the things that would be worth seeing is the Maginot Line (I haven't seen it yet). I think it's kind of a lesson in how complacency and changes in technology came together and allowed the Germans to overrun France in short order. I asked our Normandy tour guide, a Leeds educated historian and former military historian with the Royal Artillery, for a recommended reading list. If your son would like study up on the invasion, I'd be willing to share it. Maybe a question would would help you and your son plan your trip. What do you want to get out of this trip? Do you want to see the terrain where the war was fought? Try to understand why the war started? Learn how the war affected the soldiers who fought it? Find out how the war affected the local population in combat zones? Learn about how soldiers lived and what kinds of behavior were allowed (think taking of war prizes, how soldiers were housed, and fed, etc.)? Do you want to learn about the equipment that the soldiers used? How did the Allies prepare Normandy for the invaision? How did the Germans prepare to defend against an invasion? These are the types of questions I might have tried to find answers to if I had been smarter about WWII before we went to France. Now, I'm planning a return trip to learn answers to questions that I have figured out after having visited Normandy. And, I'm starting to understand that it may take several trips to learn everything I'd like to know. Yes Part of it is just to get the different views of the different people/countries. I don't think I'll ever understand everything I would like to, but I find it all interesting. I learned a lot at the Churchill War Rooms about the political/stategics side of things when we went there. I'd be interested in the reading list. He reads less about this than he used to, but he's still interested. When he was little, his uncle's friends enjoyed talking about it with him because he had read so much and really knew his stuff. Me, I'm more into the "people" aspect, be it the soldiers (either side), prisoners, survivors, families, etc. Do you have a specific guide/company you would recommend?
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 5, 2014 0:18:30 GMT -5
Neuschwanstein Castle? It's the fairytale castle in Germany and I think that would be awesome to see I can ask my Uncle what cities he visited and let you know, I think he was gone for about a week or so. That may help on planning for you. That's it! I really need to get better at photography before this trip
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MarleyKeezy78
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Post by MarleyKeezy78 on Mar 5, 2014 0:22:42 GMT -5
I want photos posted if you go! I think there is a bridge you can walk on during a hike there too!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 3:28:44 GMT -5
Do you mind if I PM you as I get closer to the trip?Of course not! Here is the link to the cemetery I told you about: www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/su.phpI live halfway between there and Versailles, so if the timing works, maybe we can meet up? When are you planning your trip? We usually go away for 2-3 weeks at some point between mid-July and late Aug. The other thing is, you can get VERY cheap flights from Paris to other European cities. My Polish cleaner just flew to Poland with her BF for 50e round trip per person. You might want to fly to Poland early and make your way back by train, or take the train there and fly back at the end. Last thing, the French train system has a thing called "Prem's" (sic) which means "first". As soon as train tix go on sale, a certain number of cheap tix are available. They can be very cheap, but they are non-refundable and non-exchangeable. ETA: Mont St Michel is gorgeous but it's "out of the way" ... it's about 5 hours from Paris, so far even for an overnight trip.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Mar 5, 2014 8:05:05 GMT -5
steph08 -- Auschwitz is the main reason we will see Poland. I wasn't sure if we should just take a bus in, visit, and leave, or try to stay in Krakow a day or two. Communication is going to be one of the things making this trip difficult already, so not sure how much time/energy I can invest in it for this time around. Did you do the Normandy tour with the WWII Museum at Caen? I'm undecided how I want to tackle this part, it seems so far from everything else. But, if I do start in Bordeaux, that may change it. Yes, we did the Normandy tour with the Caen Museum/Memorial. It looks like they even have a short stay package if you wanted to do an overnighter. My brother and I really, really enjoyed the tour. Our guide was great, the museum was great, the trip to the beaches was great, etc. normandy.memorial-caen.com/organise-your-visit If I remember correctly, we took an early train from Paris, and the guide picked us up at the train station. We started our day off at the Museum, going on a tour with our guide and then watching a short film. Lunch was included at the Museum and it was very nice - nice sit-down lunch with the rest of our group, great food. Then we loaded up into the van and did the beach tour. We were able to get out at most beaches and walk around. We also went to the American Cemetery, which was so beautiful and so sad at the same time. We both highly recommend the tour!
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 5, 2014 8:18:26 GMT -5
sesfw -- I also sometimes wonder what I could have/would have done. It just all seems so crazy to think about it. As far as the laundry, I'll probably have to make do with washing things in the sink, huh? Longest I've done is two weeks, but I'll have to get creative this time. happyhoix -- Bruges sounds fascinating! I really enjoy medieval history. It is one of the reasons I chose Ireland and the UK as our first trip. DS loved everything about castles, etc then. Would that be doable in a day? It sounds like it would be fun (tourist trap or no...) We won't be solely focused on WWII. DS pretty much enjoys most history, so things like this are good as well. Verdun, France also sounds interesting. I remember watching the movie Gallipoli in high school, and at the end, wanting to yell. I know that wasn't in France, but it was the first time that the messiness of trench fighting really hit me. I didn't get a chance to go to Bruges, so I can't say if it would take just a day. You might want to check out Rick Steves, he writes European guidebooks that have a lot of great info on what sites to see, inexpensive hotels, good food, how to pack simply, etc. I bought some shoes he recommended as good walking shoes (Ecco's) - they were expensive but fantastic. Now the only shoes I buy are Eccos! If you are interested in Germany, you might want to consider visiting the Rhine. Since the river was the major transportation system back in the middle ages, knights would build castles along it in order to get ships to pay them a tax to use their part of the river, so today you can see multiple castles all up and down it. When we went, we stayed at a castle that had been turned into a bed and breakfast, which was awesome (didn't see any ghosts, though, darn it). Another interesting place in Germany is Rothenburg ob der Tauber - a walled city with timber frame houses that hasn't changed much since the middle ages.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 8:39:58 GMT -5
I didn't get a chance to go to Bruges, so I can't say if it would take just a day.
Yes. As always you can stay overnight if you want to, but one day is enough, it's small, and the restaurants are VERY expensive.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 5, 2014 8:43:08 GMT -5
Wisconsin Beth -- was it difficult to get to the salt mines? Do they have it set up like a museum? I can't believe it's only been 25 years since the wall came down!? Berlin is on the list, and some day I want to go back and spend more time there. I did one of those 14 days/10 countries bus tours. So they took care of getting us there. And the salt mines are like 700 feet underground. The carvings are amazing. I think they're still mining salt there too. They just do a tour around the workers.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Mar 5, 2014 9:24:29 GMT -5
Wisconsin Beth -- was it difficult to get to the salt mines? Do they have it set up like a museum? I can't believe it's only been 25 years since the wall came down!? Berlin is on the list, and some day I want to go back and spend more time there. I did one of those 14 days/10 countries bus tours. So they took care of getting us there. And the salt mines are like 700 feet underground. The carvings are amazing. I think they're still mining salt there too. They just do a tour around the workers. I can help with this one. My brother and I did the salt mines on our own. It wasn't difficult. The tour book told us which bus to take to get there - pretty easy ride and the mines weren't far from the bus stop. We went in and did have to wait probably a half hour or so until the next English-speaking tour. There were lots of tours going on, but they were all in different languages, so we had to wait. Two things to consider - to get down into the salt mines, you walk down a lot of stairs. A lot. To get back out of the salt mines, you ride in little tiny elevators crammed with a few other people you don't know. I think that was the worst part of the tour - the ride back up, and neither my brother nor I are scared of elevators/enclosed spaces. It was over pretty quickly though.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 5, 2014 9:32:22 GMT -5
milee -- thanks for the tip on Ex Officio. I'll have to start looking them up. I also get a travel magazine that has some quick wash/dry clothing, so will have to keep my eye on clearance sales. I prefer to do the trips in the spring, but one good thing about summer is less clothing to haul around. I would not have thought of ebay. Any more clothing recommendations? I'm fine with washing things in the sink and drying them on a line overnight/over two days. I may have to learn how to wear a dress, seems like that could be easier in some cases They're not the least expensive way to do it, but I really like those single use Tide packets. Just one packet in a sink full of water is enough to do your hand wash. And the packets are really nicely sealed so no matter what abuse they get, they don't leak. Detergent is very slippery so anytime I've tried to take a small amount in a travel bottle, it ends up leaking over time, but the individual packets don't.
www.amazon.com/Tide-Travel-Sink-Packets-3-Count/dp/B000GCS004
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