Just A Story I Want To Share

[flutterby]

Feb 26, 2014 16:17:15 GMT -5 HoneyBBQ said:

Feb 26, 2014 8:20:17 GMT -5 flutterby said:

I feel terrible for your friend, since I'm going through something similar, and it completely sucks.

I divorced a controlling husband after 17 years as a SAHM. Our two boys chose to stay with him since they didn't want to switch high schools. I get alimony, but only about half the amount I could have received. But I didn't want the kids' lives to change too much, I wanted them to be able to stay in the nice house that we had. And then since I couldn't afford the area, along with other reasons, I now live nearly 1000 miles away from them. They don't want to come visit me. They rarely answer the phone when I call or respond to my texts (oh, except when they want money). All the years of being the main parent in their lives (since Ex was barely involved) just disappeared. They blame me for the alimony making their dad, and in turn them, broke. They blame me because their lives suck. A lot of the time it's like they wish I would just not even exist.

I know they get a lot of this from their dad. These were my nice, loving kids before the divorce. I never expected this kind of backlash from them. I don't know how to counter the things he says about me without bad-mouthing him, which I've tried very hard not to do. Thinking that someday they will see their dad for who he is, and realize how he acts isn't ok, is a nice dream to hold onto. But in the meantime, this is agony.

Now that I've gone totally off on a tangent,  my point was that I have no advice for her except just keep doing what she's doing. Get what services she can, and work to improve her situation, which will eventually improve her children's situation. I feel sad for her. I'm sure her kids' behavior hurts tremendously. Good wishes for her.

I'm so sorry flutterby, that sounds exactly how my H's children treated him after his divorce, except he was sending his exwife and children a TON of money, but it was never enough. If it is any consolation, the son is slowly coming around and likes us a lot, in fact he wants to move to the city we live in now (1500 miles away) because its so cool. And he calls and texts his dad almost every day (he is 23 (?) now and it's been ~8-9 years since the divorce. Don't give up hope on your kids. You sound like a good mother. I'm sorry it is such a thankless, heartbreaking job.

Thank you. I'll get through it, and hopefully so will Almost 40's friend. I'm glad your H's son has come around. It's hard being disappointed by your kids' behavior.

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 25, 2014 19:14:36 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Feb 25, 2014 18:39:27 GMT -5 milee said:

As for the kids being bratty... they're a teen girl and a tween girl.  Even the nicest teens and tweens are going to have the occasional episode of bratty behavior.  Given what a strong, respectable person your friend is, there's a good chance she handled it well and it will not be the norm in the future.  If it becomes a pattern and happens every time, then I'd start to worry.  If this was the first time, it's understandable your friend is sad (parenting totally sucks sometimes even under the best circumstances and hers are pretty tough), but it's not cause to freak out yet.  Give her good friend support and be there for her. if the pattern continues or the girls' behavior gets worse, then it's time to worry.

I live with 2 of them. There's never any "edible" food in the house, anything except the latest smart phone is "ghetto" and "humiliating to use in front of their peers", and suggesting that they not only take the bus where they want to go but also pay for it themselves is tantamount to child abuse. And that's just what I dealt with this week!

Lol! My 15 year old is the same way! She calls my SUV the ghetto mobile because it is 10 years old. Before she got an iPhone she complained nonstop about her ghetto phone. I want to drop her off in the ghetto for a few hours so she will see what ghetto really is.

I feel for the mom...but it sounds like she is meeting their basic needs. The fact that they don't have cable and they can't go out to eat doesn't mean she needs benefits. Maybe she does...I have no idea. But to me, everyone telling her to file for benefits based soley on the kids whining kind if cracks me up. This woman is doing what we all tell people in that position to do...and now many are bitching that her kids are suffering

[whoami]

Feb 26, 2014 20:42:48 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 25, 2014 19:14:36 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I live with 2 of them. There's never any "edible" food in the house, anything except the latest smart phone is "ghetto" and "humiliating to use in front of their peers", and suggesting that they not only take the bus where they want to go but also pay for it themselves is tantamount to child abuse. And that's just what I dealt with this week!

Lol! My 15 year old is the same way! She calls my SUV the ghetto mobile because it is 10 years old. Before she got an iPhone she complained nonstop about her ghetto phone. I want to drop her off in the ghetto for a few hours so she will see what ghetto really is.

I feel for the mom...but it sounds like she is meeting their basic needs. The fact that they don't have cable and they can't go out to eat doesn't mean she needs benefits. Maybe she does...I have no idea. But to me, everyone telling her to file for benefits based soley on the kids whining kind if cracks me up. This woman is doing what we all tell people in that position to do...and now many are bitching that her kids are suffering

Ive been through the nonsense over phones, nothing to eat in the house, etc. One of my favorite entitlement hissy fits was when my youngest was about 19 and we had gone to DC for a weekend. Because we flew standby, I wasn't sure if we were even getting on the flight because it was pretty full, never mind whether we were going to be in first class or coach. We take whatever is open and most of the time, we don't sit together. We have been doing this since the kids were little, so I don't know what his problem was that particular day. He was bitching and moaning about how he better get first....blah blah. Coach was just beneath him. I told him zip it or I was going to drop him off at Greyhound...and I was totally serious.

[Sunnyday]

You sound really nice, and you probably care for your friend, so you might only want to see the good things about her.

But I don't see her "pride" being a good thing, if it is even that. It seems that she is so nice that she lacks a backbone. You kept warning her to get up to speed on the finances and her job skills, but she never did. She hasn't properly advocated for her rights and that of her children.

I'm glad that she's getting help though. I've been burned by very nice friends who were always in a state of disaster. I tried to help, but I ended up taking on all their problems. And they were just the type that needed to be the martyr, victim or just plain babied. Once I got it, I dropped them like a hot potato.

So that's where I am coming from. YMMV

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2014 22:15:28 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

She hasn't properly advocated for her rights and that of her children.

I gave up CS, too.  Different circumstances, of course, but I knew he'd never pay it, so why give up real money in the divorce in exchange for promises to pay money that I'll never get?  In her case, if the Ex is as bad as the OP describes him, I could see it being used as a weapon.  He could stop paying it, claim that his income had decreased, or if he saw her spending money on the slightest extravagance he could tell the kids, "see what your mother does with the money I give her to take care of you?  She got a pedicure."

Better to cut the strings if you can.

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2014 22:15:28 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

You sound really nice, and you probably care for your friend, so you might only want to see the good things about her.

But I don't see her "pride" being a good thing, if it is even that. It seems that she is so nice that she lacks a backbone. You kept warning her to get up to speed on the finances and her job skills, but she never did. She hasn't properly advocated for her rights and that of her children.

I'm glad that she's getting help though. I've been burned by very nice friends who were always in a state of disaster. I tried to help, but I ended up taking on all their problems. And they were just the type that needed to be the martyr, victim or just plain babied. Once I got it, I dropped them like a hot potato.

So that's where I am coming from. YMMV

If she lacked a backbone, she would have never left her husband. IMO this woman needs a ton of counseling to help get her to a place where she can advocate for herself and her kids better, but I think she's doing alright given the circumstances.

[Sunnyday]

Feb 27, 2014 7:42:14 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Feb 26, 2014 22:15:28 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

She hasn't properly advocated for her rights and that of her children.

I gave up CS, too.  Different circumstances, of course, but I knew he'd never pay it, so why give up real money in the divorce in exchange for promises to pay money that I'll never get?  In her case, if the Ex is as bad as the OP describes him, I could see it being used as a weapon.  He could stop paying it, claim that his income had decreased, or if he saw her spending money on the slightest extravagance he could tell the kids, "see what your mother does with the money I give her to take care of you?  She got a pedicure."

Better to cut the strings if you can.

I know a little bit about your backstory Athena, and it is truly a different situation. You were always the breadwinner if I recall correctly. And you had a good job that would pay the bills. The OP's friend does not. And from what I understand, the father makes money, but is hiding his income to lower his responsibility.

I don't know much anything about how the financial responsibilities get shared in a divorce, and I would imagine that it's different in each state, but him hiding his income seems like major fraud. Why would he hide his income if he didn't want to pay up what he owes to his ex-wife? (besides the obvious skirting of income taxes).

[Sunnyday]

Feb 27, 2014 7:51:05 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

Feb 26, 2014 22:15:28 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

You sound really nice, and you probably care for your friend, so you might only want to see the good things about her.

But I don't see her "pride" being a good thing, if it is even that. It seems that she is so nice that she lacks a backbone. You kept warning her to get up to speed on the finances and her job skills, but she never did. She hasn't properly advocated for her rights and that of her children.

I'm glad that she's getting help though. I've been burned by very nice friends who were always in a state of disaster. I tried to help, but I ended up taking on all their problems. And they were just the type that needed to be the martyr, victim or just plain babied. Once I got it, I dropped them like a hot potato.

So that's where I am coming from. YMMV

If she lacked a backbone, she would have never left her husband. IMO this woman needs a ton of counseling to help get her to a place where she can advocate for herself and her kids better, but I think she's doing alright given the circumstances.

That makes me think of those stories you hear about women cracking. they suffer years of physical, emotional and sexual abuse at the hands of their husbands, and then crack! They just turn around shoot them and/or stab them dead.

Yeah, the OP might have left her husband but I still feel that my backbone statement stands. But yes, counseling or some sort of support group for emotionally abuse people seems to be in order. You can't walk from having your significant other telling you that you're a piece of garbage for years without some serious damage done to your psyche.

[973beachbum]

I guess my YM side is coming out because I wonder what is going to happen when one of the children needs a new pair of sneakers, or clothes wear out, or are outgrown.  The thread sounds like she just got fed up and walked out.  And I applaud that!  She seems to be working as much as she can, and making enough to keep the lights on, and food on the table.  It doesn't sound like there is anything left over at the end of the month.   I totally remember what that is like!

I doubt they talked over things like who pays for new clothes or school expenses when they divorced and decided to split custody.  there are a lot of things to pay for with kids that are above and beyond food and shelter.  So if no one gets child support how are all those expenses paid for and by whom?  They may have heath insurance but who pays the copays? 

If the whining was bad over having pasta for dinner and how slumy the neighborhood is, I can't imagine how bad it will get when someone grows out of their jeans, or wears out their sneakers, and mom can't afford replacements.  What happens then if dad refuses, or does it, and bad mouths mom as he does?

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2014 22:15:28 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

You sound really nice, and you probably care for your friend, so you might only want to see the good things about her.

But I don't see her "pride" being a good thing, if it is even that. It seems that she is so nice that she lacks a backbone. You kept warning her to get up to speed on the finances and her job skills, but she never did. She hasn't properly advocated for her rights and that of her children.

I'm glad that she's getting help though. I've been burned by very nice friends who were always in a state of disaster. I tried to help, but I ended up taking on all their problems. And they were just the type that needed to be the martyr, victim or just plain babied. Once I got it, I dropped them like a hot potato.

So that's where I am coming from. YMMV

I don't think you understand severely controlling, abusive spouses. They don't let the other partner do what they want. And they definitely don't let them pursue anything that could help them be independent. In fact they punish them if they step out of line. Punishment can come in many forms like taking the car keys when the partner is ill and making them miss doctor appointments. With a really emotionally abusive person, there is much more that goes on than berating them. Abuse can be very subversive.

I would not say she has no backbone since she exited without assistance and is working two jobs to try and make ends meet. 

[Deleted]

Feb 28, 2014 0:49:54 GMT -5 @lillylake said:

I would not say she has no backbone since she exited without assistance and is working two jobs to try and make ends meet. 

I absolutely agree. I had the validation of a career and a supportive family (on both sides- even my Ex's family understood what a rat he'd been) and it still took me years to get all of my self-confidence back. My mother says I'm a different person now and she gives partial credit to current DH, who's a wonderful husband and stepfather.

So, yes, just getting out, especially when you don't have a lot of marketable skills, takes a lot of strength. And, whether her daughters realize it or not, she's taught them a valuable lesson. I hope someday they understand.

[Deleted]

I just saw this thread, and it practically made me cry.  I can imagine how much it sucks to have your kids turning on you at a time like this.  I know they don't mean to, but that's definitely got to be salt on your friend's wounds.  She's trying to make a better life for herself AND them, but they don't see that and it has to make her feel like crap.  The prospect of parental alienation in the future is very real in the case of my youngest, and I worry about it a lot.  My older son is a prince and a momma's boy.  LOL  He told me last night he had started his own Minecraft server so he could start earning his own money and pay for all his own expenses.  We'll see how that pans out.      

I don't like to ask for help either.  I hate it.  Not just financial.  Everything from yard work to running the kids to their things, but I'll tell you what.  I sure do appreciate help when it's given to me.  I just don't like to ask, and I'll usually try to refuse it too.  I don't want to feel like a charity case.  I'm getting better though.  My parents gave us a year of Netflix for Christmas and a couple gift cards for restaurants....stuff I would never budget for myself, but it is so nice to have.  Offer to pay for a year of internet or Netflix or something. 

[Sunnyday]

Feb 28, 2014 0:49:54 GMT -5 @lillylake said:

Feb 26, 2014 22:15:28 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

You sound really nice, and you probably care for your friend, so you might only want to see the good things about her.

But I don't see her "pride" being a good thing, if it is even that. It seems that she is so nice that she lacks a backbone. You kept warning her to get up to speed on the finances and her job skills, but she never did. She hasn't properly advocated for her rights and that of her children.

I'm glad that she's getting help though. I've been burned by very nice friends who were always in a state of disaster. I tried to help, but I ended up taking on all their problems. And they were just the type that needed to be the martyr, victim or just plain babied. Once I got it, I dropped them like a hot potato.

So that's where I am coming from. YMMV

I don't think you understand severely controlling, abusive spouses. They don't let the other partner do what they want. And they definitely don't let them pursue anything that could help them be independent. In fact they punish them if they step out of line. Punishment can come in many forms like taking the car keys when the partner is ill and making them miss doctor appointments. With a really emotionally abusive person, there is much more that goes on than berating them. Abuse can be very subversive.

I would not say she has no backbone since she exited without assistance and is working two jobs to try and make ends meet. 

I can't know for sure whether the OP's friend has a backbone or not. But I can make a reasonable conclusion from the facts presented.

Abusers often pick partners who are weak. aka no back bone. This isn't to say that the OP's friend didn't muster up the courage one day to leave her husband. She obviously did. But from what I gather, she is getting help from her mother and the OP. Being prideful is never telling anyone that you are in the situation that you are in.
Obviously, people all around her seem to know, and they are trying to pitch in.

And you may assume whatever you want, but I grew up with an emotionally and physically abusive father.

I know all about subversive control methods. Everything about it. But I was a child, and I couldn't leave. It was easy to manipulate me. By the time, I was 12. Not so much.

I personally don't put too much weight to personal stories, because there are too many factors. But since YM loves personal stories to make a point [eyeroll].

You can consider me an expert on emotional abuse. And this is why I may have sympathy for the lady, I still consider her lacking backbone.

Abusers know who to pick. They would never pick someone like, to use a YM example, Miss Tequila or Swamp, because they probably would have clocked the bastard before he even knew what hit him.

[NancysSummerSip]

I think Almost40's friend does have a backbone, just like MPL and many of you who have dealt with this situation do. You have to, in order to make that break and leave a bad situation.

Thing is, after dealing with the immediacy of getting out, said backbone is pretty sore from the shock of the hit, if you know what I mean. And it's OK to ask for some first aid in order to shore up that backbone. It's not gone, just injured somewhat.

If Almost40's friend, or any of you, feel bad about asking for or accepting help, then keep notes on who does what for you. Keep a list of those people who were and are there for you. Because at some point, you will be able to pay it forward, once the smoke clears, the dust settles and the backbone's bandages are off.

[milee]

Feb 28, 2014 10:52:06 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

Feb 28, 2014 0:49:54 GMT -5 @lillylake said:

I don't think you understand severely controlling, abusive spouses. They don't let the other partner do what they want. And they definitely don't let them pursue anything that could help them be independent. In fact they punish them if they step out of line. Punishment can come in many forms like taking the car keys when the partner is ill and making them miss doctor appointments. With a really emotionally abusive person, there is much more that goes on than berating them. Abuse can be very subversive.

I would not say she has no backbone since she exited without assistance and is working two jobs to try and make ends meet. 

I can't know for sure whether the OP's friend has a backbone or not. But I can make a reasonable conclusion from the facts presented.

Abusers often pick partners who are weak. aka no back bone. This isn't to say that the OP's friend didn't muster up the courage one day to leave her husband. She obviously did. But from what I gather, she is getting help from her mother and the OP. Being prideful is never telling anyone that you are in the situation that you are in.
Obviously, people all around her seem to know, and they are trying to pitch in.

And you may assume whatever you want, but I grew up with an emotionally and physically abusive father.

I know all about subversive control methods. Everything about it. But I was a child, and I couldn't leave. It was easy to manipulate me. By the time, I was 12. Not so much.

I personally don't put too much weight to personal stories, because there are too many factors. But since YM loves personal stories to make a point [eyeroll].

You can consider me an expert on emotional abuse. And this is why I may have sympathy for the lady, I still consider her lacking backbone.

Abusers know who to pick. They would never pick someone like, to use a YM example, Miss Tequila or Swamp, because they probably would have clocked the bastard before he even knew what hit him.

I agree with a lot of your points on who abusers choose.  And coming from a similarly rough background, I think that probably shaped both of us in how we react to people.  You learn very quickly not to put up with any BS and to react - and react big - at the first incident to clearly establish boundaries.  A protective shell and an aggressive reaction to being poked lets the person testing the limits know that he/she shouldn't waste his/her time with you and that you won't go down without a fight. 

But you may be forgetting that you weren't born with that protective shell and also probably not that tendency to so aggressively react when someone tests your limits.  Most of us develop that over time as a defensive mechanism.  Just like it was easier for your abusive father to manipulate you when you were young, the friend of the OP may not yet have developed her shell or backbone at the start of the marriage.  That doesn't mean she didn't develop a backbone later on.  It takes some people longer than others and some are better at it than others.  But let's give her credit for what she's doing, even if it took her some time to get there.

As for the pride preventing people from getting help, we only know that she hasn't applied for government aid yet, she's structured her life to be self-sufficient (which is a big, fat, hairy deal given her lack of marketable skills and 2 dependents) and appears to be making many of the choices a proud person would make.  When you state that if she was proud she wouldn't tell anybody about her situation, I'm not sure I agree.  Her mother and friends will see her situation without her telling them, so it's not like she went to a stranger to cry about things.  I think people tend to keep things like this private out of shame, not pride, but everybody's different.  As for the help, there's no way to know exactly what's going on with the grandmother - maybe the grandmother convinced the friend that this is not help but a way for the grandmother to spend time with the grandchildren.  Similar thing with the friend - we don't know if this woman will even accept what the friend says she's going to offer.  And even if she did accept help from the grandmother and friend, that may not mean she's not proud, but that even if it kills her inside, that she realizes she may need to make some changes for the sake of her family and she's just unable to make those changes in any other way...  Who knows?  It just seems very harsh to judge her in this way given the few facts we know.   

[swamp]

I'm flattered you think I'm tough, but it took some knocking around for me to develop the protective shell and also recognize that I don't deserved to be treated like dirt.

The 19 year old me is not the 43 year old me.

[Deleted]

Feb 28, 2014 10:52:06 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

Abusers know whom to pick. They would never pick someone like, to use a YM example, Miss Tequila or Swamp, because they probably would have clocked the bastard before he even knew what hit him.

I agree with that- I was way too laid-back and compliant- a peacemaker at any cost. I still am to a great extent, but now I surround myself with people who don't take advantage of it.

My Ex once said, "I married the wrong (my last name)" because my sister was a doctor and, he presumed, making more $$$. Just another way to put me down. I mentioned that to my sister and she said if she were married to him he'd be at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. (Which is a bit ironic since that's where his ashes were scattered after he drank himself to death.)

[justme]

Feb 26, 2014 16:36:20 GMT -5 whoami said:

Feb 26, 2014 15:48:37 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

    whoami    This was last year in February that I was given mine. It had a June epiration date on it. Like I said it totally slipped by me since I looked at it like a regular gift card!!! I thought the regs had changed too but just a reminder in case they hadn't!! 

Im the queen of putting gift cards in my wallet and forgetting about them. I just found an AMEX gift card from Christmas I lost track of. Feb-June? I would have been screwed. I vaguely remember some story in the news that they dont expire any longer but Im not sure if the value can still be eaten up by fees. Good to know at any rate.

There's a difference. The Visa/Amex "gift cards" are really just prepaid debit cards, essentially. So they have slightly different rules (I think). The expiration date (at least on the few I've gotten) is actually the date they start charging a monthly maintenance fee - so you can use it after that date, but a $5/mth fee will eat through the money you have on there decently quick.

Store gift cards are something else, I think that's been switched to no expiration date, and I don't think they can start charging you fees either. Not sure on the last part though.

[Sunnyday]

Feb 28, 2014 11:35:54 GMT -5 milee said:

Feb 28, 2014 10:52:06 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

But you may be forgetting that you weren't born with that protective shell and also probably not that tendency to so aggressively react when someone tests your limits.  Most of us develop that over time as a defensive mechanism.  Just like it was easier for your abusive father to manipulate you when you were young, the friend of the OP may not yet have developed her shell or backbone at the start of the marriage.  That doesn't mean she didn't develop a backbone later on.  It takes some people longer than others and some are better at it than others.  But let's give her credit for what she's doing, even if it took her some time to get there.

t just seems very harsh to judge her in this way given the few facts we know.   

I think that she might getting a backbone now. Leaving her husband was the first step, but that doesn't take away from her role (I don't like saying responsibility) in putting herself in her situation.

You can use whatever cliche you want. "You teach people how to treat you." blah. balh.

I do give her credit. I always do when it's due. And I don't really judge her. I never really did, but I just don't get the whole she's this "kicking ass and taking names" who accidentally ended up with an abusive husband.

Everyone wants to treat her as victim. While I most certainly DO NOT want to blame her, there is nothing that the OP has said about her, that makes me think that she is a super assertive about anything.

I know it's a nuance. So, I can only reach conclusions from what has been stated about her. What else am I to do? We are all hearing the story second hand from a stranger on the internet.

I do have more respect for someone who is, in general, not very courageous, who decides to do something like leave her husband.

Yes and again, it would be easier if someone with a strong backbone to leave an abusive husband, but then some one with a strong backbone, probably put themselves in that situation.

And to comment on the children, I think that for sure the father is playing his children off on their mother. But it makes me think of stockholm syndrome in the respect that the children will want to identify with the father, because they see her as weak. Children are very easily manipulated. They want to align themselves with the stronger parent even if they secretly hate the stronger parent's behaviour. That is what my father did to us. He would often turn us on our mother, and we thought of her as weak and pathetic. That is probably what the father is doing to the mother right now because the children sense that their mother is in fact weaker (emotionally).

ETA: major typo 

[milee]

There is some merit to the idea that children sometimes gravitate to the stronger parent.  IMHO, it's because children need to feel secure. Dad in this case may be a jerk, but his house probably feels more secure from a child's standpoint - dad can afford a house, more than basic food and some luxuries.  They may not be able to put a finger on the feeling much less vocalize it, but Mom's house probably feels very insecure.  It's a basic shelter, but the neighborhood may not feel safe and they may even worry about things like Mom having enough food to eat.

Kids need to feel like the adult has their act together and can provide shelter and security as well as emotional support.  Not knowing if a parent can provide that makes kids feel insecure.  That might be part of what is going on here.

Or again, they could just be having a bratty teen girl moment, which does happen even in families that aren't struggling.   

[Sunnyday]

Feb 28, 2014 11:38:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

I'm flattered you think I'm tough, but it took some knocking around for me to develop the protective shell and also recognize that I don't deserved to be treated like dirt.

The 19 year old me is not the 43 year old me.

Your avatar is holding a whip.

I can't help but think that you are tough.  lol

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"This woman is doing what we all tell people in that position to do...and now many are bitching that her kids are suffering":::...

Boom!  Some posters have stated proudly that they eschewed "entitlements".  The OP's friend is doing just that, and getting told to seek them out.  We's a cray-cray bunch.

I do hope (for everyone going through this) that as the kids enter the workforce themselves, and see what it takes to earn money and what it costs to live, they will recant some of their younger snobbishness.  Most kids can't possibly have that kind of life experience to truly understand "working" and "being a self-sufficient adult".  When you see 30%+ of your money evaporate before it hits your check, and then a further 20-50% of whats left over go to just having a roof over your head, perspective gets really clear, really quickly.