movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Feb 25, 2014 16:52:08 GMT -5
This is sort of money related but I decided to post on off-topic because it is more of a personal story for people to comment on rather than seeking financial advice. Last night I took a friend to dinner. She and her husband divorced about 6 months ago. He is verbally abusive and she finally decided to leave after 15 yrs of marriage. They have joint custody of the children (2 girls ages 9 and 15). She gets them one full week and then he gets them one full week, etc. For 12 yrs she was a SAHM and did not keep up on any computer skills, etc. She is now working 2 part-time retail jobs. She doesn't receive any child support or alimony and doesn't want any. She also receives no government assistance and refuses to apply for any (she will get EIC this year but no food stamps, housing assistance, etc). She has no internet, no cable and only a basic cell phone (no home phone). She never eats out, shops for herself, and has no luxuries whatsoever. She has a halfway decent car (2005 Toyota something) that her mother gifted to her. I know she is going through a very rough time and know it is her ex-husband's week with the kids so I offered to take her to dinner last night. In the middle of dinner she broke down and started crying because she said the girls were awful to her all last week. They told her it was completely boring at her home because she has no cable or internet. On Friday night she made spaghetti and the kids wanted to go out to eat. The older one refused to eat the food and told her she hated coming over there because they can't even go out to eat. On Saturday the girls wanted ice cream and she had no money to even take them to DQ because it would have had to come out of her gas money for the following week. The girls also made some comments about the fact that they didn't feel safe staying there because of the neighborhood where she lives. I feel completely awful for her. I am trying to encourage her to at least go take some computer classes or get some sort of training so she can get past minimum wage. With all the talk about people living off the taxpayers I just wanted to share this story...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 25, 2014 16:54:24 GMT -5
She might want to look into low cost/sliding scale family therapy for her and the girls. She should call the county to get recommendations. Sounds like the girls aren't coping well and are lashing out at mom.
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wyouser
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Post by wyouser on Feb 25, 2014 17:02:39 GMT -5
There are programs that will pay for some college classes...would she consider those? That is tough and unfortunately NOT an isolated situation in the US today.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 17:03:11 GMT -5
Why is she refusing CS? And even alimony for that matter? They were traditionally both intended to "close the gap" between the ex-spouses' earnings, especially if there are children. Is she doing it out of spite? pride?
She may not technically be entitled to any CS, since they share custody, but if the difference in their incomes is significant, she may be. I do think it's hard for kids that age (esp the older one) to do without cable and internet half the time if the kid is used to having it. Kids that age are ALL about their friends. Of course that doesn't excuse their behavior.
If she can't do or give the girls the things they used to have when the parents were together, the kids are going to lash out. Nice? No, but kids that age can be pretty self-centered.
The comment about the neighborhood is nasty, and it sounds like something straight out of the dad's mouth. But did the mom move after they split? That wasn't clear. It sounds like the dad is trying to get the girls to live with him FT.
You sound like a good friend. I agree she probably needs to update / increase her skills but it's rough out there. Good luck to her.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Feb 25, 2014 17:08:47 GMT -5
I'm trying to not even go there but that doesn't fly. Either she had a piss poor attorney or a sorry judge that didn't see this as just wrong. I told my attorney I didn't give a flip about child support since son was 16 at time. My attorney said judge would NOT sign off on papers without some child support and this was 32 yrs ago.
I am sorry she is going thru this but a lot of her problems are being brought on by herself to a large degree for whatever reason. The first six months are really hard to wrap your head around sometimes, but she has two children so it is time to dig in and see what needs to be done. Try to be a good friend and guide her if you can.
As for children I hate the week here, week there. I think it is very disruptive in some respects and maybe daddy is playing the Santa daddy. And before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I respect everyone having access to their children and their lives.
And no I don't see buckling down over eating out with the kids and such but there is a way bigger issue going on here and I agree with NomoreDramaQ1015 on the therapy.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 25, 2014 17:11:47 GMT -5
I think debthaven nailed it. Very likely the father (intentionally or otherwise) is working to alienate them from her. Esp the comment about the neighborhood. Google "Parental Alienation Syndrome".
My exDIL pretty successfully alienated my oldest grandson from his father. Now that the boy is 18 and living at school, I am attempting to encourage them to mend fences.
I feel for your friend. I also second the suggestion that she reconsider CS and or alimony. Pride doesn't pay the bills. If their incomes are very disparate, she needs to take steps to equalize. And looking for the long haul, some classes at the CC could help her earning ability. Also bolster her self confidence.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Feb 25, 2014 17:13:19 GMT -5
Not to mention, she should apply for whatever services are available to her. YM'ers have issues with those who abuse the system, not those who need a hand up.
But I really wonder about the CS. That seems strange that she didn't get any. I've only heard of that when you have two working spouses and they share custody.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 25, 2014 17:14:37 GMT -5
I think she should take advantage of a "hand up" in whatever way she needs to.
Foodstamps, energy assistance, rent assistance and she should get whatever she is due from her ex ie. if it is not too late to capture some CS she should ask for it.
Just remind her that most people don't object to people using welfare on a temporary basis - they object to people turning it into a permanent solution.
Also she should counter to BS in whatever positive way she can. My BIL's ex teaches her kids nasty things, and they repeat her teachings and BIL does not even correct them.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Feb 25, 2014 17:17:35 GMT -5
Almost40, that was nice of you to take her out. I'm puzzled by her pride, though. The assistance is not, and should not be about her. It's about her girls. Why not child support? It's not money for her. She didn't leave him to be with someone else. She got out of a very bad relationship. And the kids are upset and stressed at this point: about the divorce, about the change in their lifestyle, etc. Lashing out is likely pretty much all they have to express themselves. I think she needs to relent and see that there is a difference between what she deserves from the system, what her girls need and know that these things are OK. And that someday, she can pay it forward.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Feb 25, 2014 17:18:57 GMT -5
Why is she refusing CS? And even alimony for that matter? They were traditionally both intended to "close the gap" between the ex-spouses' earnings, especially if there are children. Is she doing it out of spite? pride? She may not technically be entitled to any CS, since they share custody, but if the difference in their incomes is significant, she may be. I do think it's hard for kids that age (esp the older one) to do without cable and internet half the time if the kid is used to having it. Kids that age are ALL about their friends. Of course that doesn't excuse their behavior. If she can't do or give the girls the things they used to have when the parents were together, the kids are going to lash out. Nice? No, but kids that age can be pretty self-centered. The comment about the neighborhood is nasty, and it sounds like something straight out of the dad's mouth. But did the mom move after they split? That wasn't clear. It sounds like the dad is trying to get the girls to live with him FT. You sound like a good friend. I agree she probably needs to update / increase her skills but it's rough out there. Good luck to her. She actually isn't refusing alimony but also doesn't really want anything from him... first, let me just say that getting alimony in the state of Texas is extremely difficult in general. The other issue is that her husband has his own business and and doesn't report all his income. He has a "handyman" type business and gets paid a lot under the table so when he files tax returns it shows very little income. I have reported this (though she doesn't know I have) and I hope it leads to some sort of investigation but not sure that it will as I have absolutely no proof of anything other than the words that I have heard directly from his mouth the last several years. ETA: His lack of reporting income is also why no child support. They have shared custody and he doesn't have anymore money than she does (on paper anyway).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 17:24:28 GMT -5
Alimony aside, it sounds like he's still earning more than she is, so she should be getting CS. As others have said, it's not about her, it's about the girls. She may not "want" anything from him, but they are his girls, and they deserve whatever CS / help they are entitled to.
If she is suddenly depriving them of things they are used to having out of HER sense of pride, she is NOT doing them or their relationship any favors. I don't think cable / internet / an occasional meal out are unreasonable requests, especially if they have had access to these things all their lives (again, not to say that the girl is behaving well, not at all). They are probably incredibly frustrated with the situation, and perhaps they feel that their mom's pride is misplaced.
ETA: Sorry, I just saw your ETA. Seriously, he declares only as much income as her two PT retail jobs? Wow.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Feb 25, 2014 17:35:54 GMT -5
He reported income of $600 a month for 2013. This guy is a scoundrel. Absolutely not a nice person. She is too nice of a person and was pretty much his doormat for 15 yrs. She married him when she got pregnant with the first child. I don't really think she knows what to do and is slipping into a state of depression. She loves her kids more than any person I have ever met. He has the kids half the time so getting CS is not happening unless she can prove he is taking money under the table... which is very hard to prove especially since she doesn't know who is clients are.
ETA: He was extremely controlling with all the money. She was absolutely clueless about their finances. I mentioned several times to her over the years that she was putting herself in a very dangerous position but she never listened.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 25, 2014 17:45:48 GMT -5
Why is she refusing CS? And even alimony for that matter? They were traditionally both intendeid to "close the gap" between the ex-spouses' earnings, especially if there are children. Is she doing it out of spite? pride? She may not technically be entitled to any CS, since they share custody, but if the difference in their incomes is significant, she may be. I do think it's hard for kids that age (esp the older one) to do without cable and internet half the time if the kid is used to having it. Kids that age are ALL about their friends. Of course that doesn't excuse their behavior. If she can't do or give the girls the things they used to have when the parents were together, the kids are going to lash out. Nice? No, but kids that age can be pretty self-centered. The comment about the neighborhood is nasty, and it sounds like something straight out of the dad's mouth. But did the mom move after they split? That wasn't clear. It sounds like the dad is trying to get the girls to live with him FT. You sound like a good friend. I agree she probably needs to update / increase her skills but it's rough out there. Good luck to her. She actually isn't refusing alimony but also doesn't really want anything from him... first, let me just say that getting alimony in the state of Texas is extremely difficult in general. The other issue is that her husband has his own business and and doesn't report all his income. He has a "handyman" type business and gets paid a lot under the table so when he files tax returns it shows very little income. I have reported this (though she doesn't know I have) and I hope it leads to some sort of investigation but not sure that it will as I have absolutely no proof of anything other than the words that I have heard directly from his mouth the last several years. ETA: His lack of reporting income is also why no child support. They have shared custody and he doesn't have anymore money than she does (on paper anyway). Its called imputed income.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 17:51:45 GMT -5
May your friend find the strength and courage to move forward and rebuild her life. Having a friend like you to talk to and spend time with means a lot when it feels like your life has fallen apart.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 18:27:01 GMT -5
This post made me cry because, when dear old dad decides to spend his "imputed income" on a new girlfriend instead of his kids, he will set them adrift as costly inconveniences. He sounds like an immature sick....... The kids are always the losers when a parent decides to use them as a vengeance tool.
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gacpa
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Post by gacpa on Feb 25, 2014 18:38:18 GMT -5
I feel for her. I hope those girls wake up someday and learn to appreciate their mother. Not likely to happen anytime soon given their ages. Is she open to counseling? Those girls need someone to help them see they are lucky to have her instead of bitching about no ice cream or whatever. If the daughters will not go, the mom should go without them. She needs the help to sustain herself emotionally and not give in to depression.
This mom is trying to be independent and accept personal responsibility for her life and her children. She should be applauded and I hope those girls change their minds before it is too late.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 25, 2014 18:39:27 GMT -5
Unfortunately, in some areas, there would be no way to get child support in a scenario like this because they split physical custody 50/50. I've seen more and more parents opting for this arrangement for that express purpose - neither owes the other CS. Like nonameperson, I think in most cases the arrangement of alternating weeks at parents' houses is an awful way for kids to live, but for many the lure of no CS payment outweighs the consideration of what's best for the kids.
It's also really tough to squeeze blood from a stone in regards to alimony. IMHO, this friend is in a tough spot that she at least partially brought on herself and is doing her best to get out of it. She chose to stay home and not keep up any skills (not uncommon, but risky.) Most importantly, she chose to ignore the fact that DH underreported income on taxes while they were married, and that's part of why she can't get alimony now. If they'd been reporting all the business income all along, she'd have a great case for alimony since there would be a clear history of large business income. As it is, she ignored the underreporting when they were married it benefitted her and it's going to be tough for her to now go in and be aggressive about that without looking like she was complicit in tax fraud in the past. So she's pulling on her big girl panties and digging out of this on her own. That's commendable and shows how strong she is.
As for the kids being bratty... they're a teen girl and a tween girl. Even the nicest teens and tweens are going to have the occasional episode of bratty behavior. Given what a strong, respectable person your friend is, there's a good chance she handled it well and it will not be the norm in the future. If it becomes a pattern and happens every time, then I'd start to worry. If this was the first time, it's understandable your friend is sad (parenting totally sucks sometimes even under the best circumstances and hers are pretty tough), but it's not cause to freak out yet. Give her good friend support and be there for her. if the pattern continues or the girls' behavior gets worse, then it's time to worry.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Feb 25, 2014 18:58:10 GMT -5
Kids like to play one parent off against the other if there is difficult between the two.
Like as has been said.. He won't be all over his kids if there is a new woman to entertain.
Its better all round if they can continue to parent from a united front..... and avoid the point scoring.
Meanwhile, realty check, she has to survive. So take all the entitlements and all the help offered...and set herself some goals. Not that easy when you are in an emotional state....but the best person to help her, is herself.....with support from friends and family.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 25, 2014 19:05:05 GMT -5
I dunno. I feel for the friend. If DH and I divorce, our kids won't be all that better off, actually. DH works part time and makes 15K a year. I'd lose half of everything: my pension, my 403b, our EF, etc. Plus I'm sure I'd have to pay alimony and child support. We'd have to move to hoochie-ville again. Actually, my plan was to buy us condos in our old complex. We could take the equity we have in our house and each have 50% equity in a condo.. Life as we know it would be g-o-n-e. No more vacations. No more retirement. We'd probably still get help with private school.
The only thing I'm grateful for is that our kids wouldn't bitch about not having cable, since we don't have it. I need the internet for work, so that's a must. My kids are young enough where they still want my time over anything else, really.
It can be devastating when we don't make the right decision when choosing a marriage partner. Or making the decision to remain with someone when it can be very risky to do so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 19:08:10 GMT -5
I'm trying to not even go there but that doesn't fly. Either she had a piss poor attorney or a sorry judge that didn't see this as just wrong. I told my attorney I didn't give a flip about child support since son was 16 at time. My attorney said judge would NOT sign off on papers without some child support and this was 32 yrs ago.
I am sorry she is going thru this but a lot of her problems are being brought on by herself to a large degree for whatever reason. The first six months are really hard to wrap your head around sometimes, but she has two children so it is time to dig in and see what needs to be done. Try to be a good friend and guide her if you can.
As for children I hate the week here, week there. I think it is very disruptive in some respects and maybe daddy is playing the Santa daddy. And before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I respect everyone having access to their children and their lives.
And no I don't see buckling down over eating out with the kids and such but there is a way bigger issue going on here and I agree with NomoreDramaQ1015 on the therapy. If they are sharing custody 50/50 why would she receive child support
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 19:14:36 GMT -5
As for the kids being bratty... they're a teen girl and a tween girl. Even the nicest teens and tweens are going to have the occasional episode of bratty behavior. Given what a strong, respectable person your friend is, there's a good chance she handled it well and it will not be the norm in the future. If it becomes a pattern and happens every time, then I'd start to worry. If this was the first time, it's understandable your friend is sad (parenting totally sucks sometimes even under the best circumstances and hers are pretty tough), but it's not cause to freak out yet. Give her good friend support and be there for her. if the pattern continues or the girls' behavior gets worse, then it's time to worry. I live with 2 of them. There's never any "edible" food in the house, anything except the latest smart phone is "ghetto" and "humiliating to use in front of their peers", and suggesting that they not only take the bus where they want to go but also pay for it themselves is tantamount to child abuse. And that's just what I dealt with this week!
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Feb 25, 2014 19:15:16 GMT -5
My kids went through a brat stage when they were younger and doing the visitation thing. Ex used to bitch and moan to them about how Mom lives in a mansion (we did not) and took trips to Hawaii (yeah and DH is an airline pilot and we can afford to pay for our own vacations) and in his mind, thats what the child support was paying for. I even had the boys tell me on the way to a baseball game that I should be giving them the child support Dad pays (actually garnished against his will after non payment) because thats their money....all straight from the douche bags mouth.
He was a Disney parent only bothering with them a couple weeks in the summer and sometimes at Christmas. At first, I tried setting the record straight but it was a waste of time. After a while, I just let them sulk when they would come home and once they were re acclimated and got some sleep (it was a free for all there) things would settle down.
They are now 22 and 24 and have virtually nothing to do with him. He whines to the youngest who is in the military and chooses to come home rather than go to his fathers, about how his feelings are hurt because he always chooses to go home rather than visit him. Guess what...he still chooses to come home. In fact, he has 4 kids and none of them have much of anything resembling a relationship with him. He always played victim to all 4 of his kids and while they bought it when they were younger, they see it for what it was these days.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 25, 2014 19:21:39 GMT -5
I dunno. I feel for the friend. Just to be clear - I do, too. If I were her in that situation, I'd cry, too. She's dealing with a lot of incredibly tough things all at the same time and to feel like her kids don't love her (not that the kids don't, but she probably feels that way) is horrible. I'd cry a lot.
My post above wasn't because I don't feel for her or think she's wrong to be sad or that the friend should blow her off. My post was just to put in perspective some of the individual issues and reply to some of the claims that something must be amiss or that immediate action is required on a fraud. IMHO, this situation is really sad and this poor woman is right to be sad, but she's making good choices now and needs to let them play out. It's OK and normal to be sad sometimes.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Feb 25, 2014 20:05:58 GMT -5
I'm trying to not even go there but that doesn't fly. Either she had a piss poor attorney or a sorry judge that didn't see this as just wrong. I told my attorney I didn't give a flip about child support since son was 16 at time. My attorney said judge would NOT sign off on papers without some child support and this was 32 yrs ago.
I am sorry she is going thru this but a lot of her problems are being brought on by herself to a large degree for whatever reason. The first six months are really hard to wrap your head around sometimes, but she has two children so it is time to dig in and see what needs to be done. Try to be a good friend and guide her if you can.
As for children I hate the week here, week there. I think it is very disruptive in some respects and maybe daddy is playing the Santa daddy. And before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I respect everyone having access to their children and their lives.
And no I don't see buckling down over eating out with the kids and such but there is a way bigger issue going on here and I agree with NomoreDramaQ1015 on the therapy. If they are sharing custody 50/50 why would she receive child support Good point. I guess like some others I just honed in on the "she doesn't want any child support" My bad
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 25, 2014 20:47:42 GMT -5
When there is a large disparity in income, the court can still order child support on a 50/50 custody split so it evens out the standard of living.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Feb 25, 2014 20:53:33 GMT -5
Thanks for clearing that up Swamp. I know someone who had shared custody and one got CS but I thought maybe it was just a state by state thing!! That was the reason for me backing away from my post about CS when called on it.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 25, 2014 21:09:45 GMT -5
When there is a large disparity in income, the court can still order child support on a 50/50 custody split so it evens out the standard of living. Although I've heard of that, given that he's only reporting $600 a month income and she works two retail jobs so probably has a similarly low income, would there really be enough disparity to warrant that? Not sure how it works in other states and maybe my friends haven't always gotten good legal advice but the couple of friends I've had that got divorced from a spouse who was underreporting business income in a situation similar to this both got told they were kinda SOL. The gist was that if for years they had benefitted by going along with the huge underreporting of income while they were married, they couldn't very well come forward and point out the spouse's underreporting without causing themself issues. After all, they had signed those tax returns with the underreporting for years as well, so unless they had evidence to show the reporting was honest when they were together and that the underreporting was happening only after the marriage ended, tough cookies.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 25, 2014 21:20:21 GMT -5
When there is a large disparity in income, the court can still order child support on a 50/50 custody split so it evens out the standard of living. Although I've heard of that, given that he's only reporting $600 a month income and she works two retail jobs so probably has a similarly low income, would there really be enough disparity to warrant that? Not sure how it works in other states and maybe my friends haven't always gotten good legal advice but the couple of friends I've had that got divorced from a spouse who was underreporting business income in a situation similar to this both got told they were kinda SOL. The gist was that if for years they had benefitted by going along with the huge underreporting of income while they were married, they couldn't very well come forward and point out the spouse's underreporting without causing themself issues. After all, they had signed those tax returns with the underreporting for years as well, so unless they had evidence to show the reporting was honest when they were together and that the underreporting was happening only after the marriage ended, tough cookies. Too many variables to say what would happen. I know that the judge I appear in front of regularly would impute income to him and have him pay some child support, depending on how much was spent regularly during the marriage. Amount would range from $25 to $150 a week.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 25, 2014 21:27:16 GMT -5
This poor woman is strangling herself with fear and pride. She's lucky to have you as a friend! Talk to her! Let her know she must apply for those services that will allow her to provide a reasonable home for her children and a reasonable life for herself. It's great to want to accept personal responsibility. Kudos to her for that! However, all of this isn't HER responsibility. Some of it is HIS and she's bearing the brunt of his selfishness and carelessness. What's coming from those kids isn't coming only from them. He's got an oar in there. You can bet on it!
It's for people like this that social services are funded. I'm quite glad to see my tax dollars going to someone like this woman, who's doing the best she can in a really bad situation. She needs education/training and help to get there. Let her know that, and let her know you're behind her. It's a lot easier to walk that mile if you know you've got a companion who'll hold your hand.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Feb 25, 2014 21:57:38 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing this story. I have no advice for either you or your friend, but I'm still glad to hear the story. I'm not sure why.
Your friend has a rough road ahead of her but I really admire her pride. Yeah, it's hurting her now, but I still admire it.
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