Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 20, 2014 5:37:47 GMT -5
I have been contemplating for awhile the intersection between reality and resumes in regards to getting a job and advertising one's skills and fit for any given position.
I know as in my head and heart that what Dark asserted in one thread, the last 5 years of what you've done, is the most important to an enmployer - isn't entirely true. It has made me wonder if the youth culture of the US and even this board has made us collectively more stupid than we need to be.
For example, you can't really understand(or at least I don't) Dark or Miss T without understanding the childhood that shaped and drove them to be what they are today. That still guides their beliefs, biases, and preferences. Looking at just the last five years of my life and say Dark's would give you an unrealistic picture of who either of us are and what we are capable of. (Apologies to Dark and Miss T for using you as examples, its to make a general point not address you as people in specific.)
Given I am 53 going to be 54 in April, my resume leaves off more than it possibly can even hint at. And this is for even simple jobs. I am not my resume nor I am just my last 5 years of working life. I use skills and knowledge gleaned from my entire life, not just the last five or so. And if the last 5 years were really that improtant, why do we care about where people went to college or whether they grew up as a Kennedy or were an adopted crack baby. IMO its because all part of the story and if "fit" is the most important thing in employment, acknowledging you weren't created as a brand new entity 5 years ago is a good thing.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 20, 2014 5:58:06 GMT -5
I work a FT day today so won't reply to anything likely until tonight, if then. I've got job applications to push out including some promising ones Backstage emailed me even if they don't pay UNIX admin wages. They do beat $10/hr. though. Based on reactions of thirty-somethings and others at my current job I'm currently waging a campaign of perception using stuff I already own. My Fossil watch with the Lucent logo, a gift for an HP-UX server upgrade on time and as promised, will get a new watch band and be worn as subliminal advertising. My Toys R Us Geoffrey pin on a favorite jacket was already noticed. My old Coach purse has been in use since Friday when I picked it up from the Chinese guy. (Turns out $25 was a good deal on the zipper repair. The shoe/repair guy I dragged my friend to today would have charged around $60 to $70. He didn't realize the red zipper in the blue purse was a style choice until I told him.) (I still plan to get my Tignanello purse, but its less urgent now, and I am coordinating with a fellow under-employed person to get a discount on it as well. ) Note to SNAP watchers, not sure if I'll take the Coach purse while using food stamps, but please pay attention. Its vintage. My guess is it is roughly 20 years old or more. Interestingly, when I wandered into the Coach store at the mall they have a similar blue color that's popular and of course the new equivalent of my purse is at least $200!. (Optimist reminds self to get listed on will of at least one church member. She has some great vintage pieces that still work well.) To the power and versatitlity that comes with keeping the good stuff over a life that has spanned 53 years thus far.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Feb 20, 2014 6:11:38 GMT -5
Of course as people we are shaped and influenced by events that took place far longer ago than 5 years. However I can understand the employer perspective of looking at more recent job history when hiring, since they want people that will step right into a position and be ready to do the job just as though they were already doing it.
One of my goals is to redo my resume into a hybrid between a functional resume that has a list of skills up at the top, and the more traditional with the specific jobs listed below. I keep procrastinating on the resume, I guess because I feel subconsciously that making it will somehow signal that I am ready to leave my current job (which I am not).
I don't necessarily agree on the 5 year thing, but I do agree that your resume needs to be a lot shorter, because something too long and wordy won't get read. Also the need to go a little more entry level if you have been out of the field for a while.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Feb 20, 2014 6:17:37 GMT -5
For example, you can't really understand(or at least I don't) Dark or Miss T without understanding the childhood that shaped and drove them to be what they are today. That still guides their beliefs, biases, and preferences. Looking at just the last five years of my life and say Dark's would give you an unrealistic picture of who either of us are and what we are capable of. (Apologies to Dark and Miss T for using you as examples, its to make a general point not address you as people in specific.) I agree this is hugely important to our development as individuals and for our emotional and spiritual state. However an employer doesn't look at us in depth as people or delve into our development and the hurdles we have overcome in our early lives. To an employer we are a commodity that they hire for specific benefits we will bring them. They care about personality enough to ensure that we won't alienate the office or bring a lot of drama, but nothing in depth.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 7:49:47 GMT -5
You want the reality? Nobody wants to hire a 50 year old IT person for lower level work. Architect level? Maybe. Director? Ok. Unix admin, nope.
We had a 50+ guy interview last year for a tier 2 support position. He played up what he did MORE THAN 5 years ago because that was the last time he was in an individual contributor technical role. He downplayed the management role he was in the last 6 years. The old experience got him in the door, but when diving deeper into the more recent experience, he was quickly disqualified. The older experience is not unimportant, but the weight applied to it is much less than recent experience.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 7:55:16 GMT -5
Another observation, I wasn't the best child/young adult. I did some petty theft (never caught), drank underage, etc. Now I'm the most ethical person you will find. There is no correlation between the two things. There was no come to jesus event that transformed me. The people that use the excuses of the past to explain away deficiencies later in life are the weak minded amongst us. Yes yes, there are plenty of edge cases.. "I lost both my legs and arms when I was 19 and now I can't get my foot in the door". Ok.. That person has a legit connection.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 20, 2014 8:04:14 GMT -5
I think you are talking about two different thing...resume and individual. As an individual, I am shaped by everything that has happened throughout my life. That is why I would never wish that I had a different childhood. yes, as a child I wished and prayed it was different but now that I am adult I realize that growing up like I did shaped who I am today. And guess what, I like who I am today. On the flip side, I have absolutely no tolerance for people who whine and complain about their circumstance but are willing to bust their ass to change it. Some might expect me to be more sympathetic but realistically, if I can break free from my background ANYONE can. I hate excuses and self-pity.
On the flip side, how I developed into the person that I am today has absolutely no relevance to my employer or potential employers. My resume spans 19 years but there are only two employers. But I certainly do not put work experience from 15 years ago on my resume. It has nothing to do with my abilities today. If I am still hanging my hat on something I did 15 years ago I have some major professional issues because that means I haven't grown as a professional.
I also do not share my past with anyone in real life, outside of my absolute best friend. I share on here because this is a money board and my past did shape not only who I am but also all financial decisions (including the career I chose). My colleagues know me as a successful professional, not as the girl who fought her way out of government housing. People are way too quick to judge and I will never have people that actually matter to me professionally judging who I am today because of my childhood. Look at the last few days...sure, I'm sure this person was just trolling but how many times was "you can take the girl out of the trailer park but you can't take the trailer park out of the girl" tossed at me? On a message board I don't care...but I would never want that held against me at work. I doubt it would be but you never know what makes people tick.
So, long story short...you have to stop hanging onto what you did over the last 30 years. It is not relevant to any employer. You might think that is unfair but it doesn't mean it isnt' reality. You need to somehow find a way to obtain more recent skills (I know absolutely zippo about the IT field). I am sure you can qualify for some classes at a community college.
I know it sucks and it only gets harder as you get older but the reality is, you need to change the way you think not the other way around.
Best of luck to you
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Feb 20, 2014 8:14:17 GMT -5
Your lifetime of work experience may shape the person you are and your skills but in IT it is about the most recent stuff. It changes quickly. Heck even stuff from 5 years ago is probably obsolete to many. I wish you luck in finding good full time employment but I think you need to admit with IT that it is all about the most recent stuff. It always has been.
And Lucent doesn't even exist anymore so playing off that experience probably isn't going to get you anywhere.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 8:23:30 GMT -5
ETA: Look at our very own The Walk of the Penguin Mich changing course in her 50's! The UNIX part of your career is over unless you get re-certified. My quick google search of "IT Certificates over 5 years old" shows "Certificates over 5 years are expired" and "No scores over 5 years will be accepted". It is unfortunate that you have a wealth of knowledge that no one wants to tap. But you can't blame THEM for wanting someone with current knowledge! Especially in that industry. Newer is better in the IT World, sorry to say. How about you start thinking about what else you might want to do? What other knowledge you have that could be valuable to an employer? If you stop defining yourself as a UNIX Administrator you can start thinking about what other skills you have and other jobs that use those skills instead. Or you need to find a way to get the cash together to get new Certs. Those are the only viable options I can see.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 20, 2014 8:42:24 GMT -5
My past shapes who I am but if the last time I was in a lab was 5+ years ago my skills are going to be considered obsolete. That's how fast things change around here. I'll need to go back and get my graduate degree in order to bring relevant up to date information to the table.
It doesn't matter my PI can create chromatograms by hand for example, labs are now using automated HPLC machines. That's what I know how to use. So while it's impressive to me personally it has no relevance in today's lab.
I have to continously evolve if I want to stay relevant, I can't hang my hat on outdated technology/methodology. If I do that I'm going to be quickly relegated to test tube washer, if even that.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 20, 2014 8:46:41 GMT -5
ETA: Look at our very own The Walk of the Penguin Mich changing course in her 50's! The UNIX part of your career is over unless you get re-certified. My quick google search of "IT Certificates over 5 years old" shows "Certificates over 5 years are expired" and "No scores over 5 years will be accepted". It is unfortunate that you have a wealth of knowledge that no one wants to tap. But you can't blame THEM for wanting someone with current knowledge! Especially in that industry. Newer is better in the IT World, sorry to say. How about you start thinking about what else you might want to do? What other knowledge you have that could be valuable to an employer? If you stop defining yourself as a UNIX Administrator you can start thinking about what other skills you have and other jobs that use those skills instead. Or you need to find a way to get the cash together to get new Certs. Those are the only viable options I can see. And look into government grants for getting up to date. I know I am the first one to bitch about social programs but as a taxpayer, I have no issue helping someone land a job if it means getting them to be self-sufficient. Also, see if there are any mentoring programs in your area. I know for my profession, networking means a LOT. If you can connect with the right people you might be able to gain some insight as well as some help getting you into some doors.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 20, 2014 9:07:58 GMT -5
Given I am 53 going to be 54 in April, my resume leaves off more than it possibly can even hint at. And this is for even simple jobs. I am not my resume nor I am just my last 5 years of working life. I use skills and knowledge gleaned from my entire life, not just the last five or so. And if the last 5 years were really that improtant, why do we care about where people went to college or whether they grew up as a Kennedy or were an adopted crack baby. IMO its because all part of the story and if "fit" is the most important thing in employment, acknowledging you weren't created as a brand new entity 5 years ago is a good thing. I agree that you're intermingling two things that are not the same. A resume is not your life history, nor is it supposed to be. It's your work history, only enough to convince the employer that you would do a better job at what he is specifically looking for than the guy waiting in the lobby for the next interview. And in nearly every work field I can think of, things change enough that what you did 10-20 years ago has little to no correlation with the way things happen today. They need someone who can keep up, not who's stagnated. As for that last part, I care deeply if my friends were Kennedys (I'd borrow money! ) or grew up as crack babies. But my employer isn't looking to be my friend -- he's looking to get a job done. Period. If I can't get it done (the way it's currently done), it doesn't matter what kind of home life I had or have.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 20, 2014 9:09:01 GMT -5
And Lucent doesn't even exist anymore so playing off that experience probably isn't going to get you anywhere. Could it even backfire by aging you accidentally?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2014 9:15:25 GMT -5
Even in finance, the technology from 5 years ago is different enough that if you were a spreadsheet master in the 90's, you will have to relearn everything from scratch. 5 years ago we were using Excel 2003. I recall the learning curve for 2007 - I'm not ready to ride that wave again with a new person. The SAP I'm using today is pretty different from the one I used in 2002. I need a professional that will hit the ground running. I hired a 50+ year old on my last hire, and he worked for me for 5 years and he was never very good at his job. He kept saying very outdated things, and never was very good technically. Given that I am nearly 50, I am banking that his shortfalls are individual, but if I have to hire again, I will look for recent technical skills so the person can get their job done. I won't go on faith that 20 working years must mean he is proficient.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 20, 2014 9:22:24 GMT -5
Optimist, In my opinion - you are spending far too much time and energy philosophizing on why you are where you are at, why certain situations, people, institutions, and practices are wrong, and trying to get others to agree with your conclusions. You are where you are at. period. If you don't like it there, you need to plan a path out, not spend all your limited time and energy <per your info> looking back and trying to assess, quantify, analyze and re-analyze the path that got your there. If a hiring decision maker thinks your skills are out of date. They are. You give them what they are looking for or they'll find it somewhere else. Where are you now? What have you got to offer? What are 'they' looking for? Pick your best match and go forward to secure a new spot - then work up from there. Well put, Rukh. The business world is what it is, at this point in history. Does ageism and bias against the long-term unemployed suck? Yes. But you can't change it by waxing philosophic about it. Figure out what they need (not what you need) right now and how you can fill it better than the next guy sitting in the lobby. And then show them that.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 20, 2014 9:28:25 GMT -5
Even in finance, the technology from 5 years ago is different enough that if you were a spreadsheet master in the 90's, you will have to relearn everything from scratch. 5 years ago we were using Excel 2003. I recall the learning curve for 2007 - I'm not ready to ride that wave again with a new person. The SAP I'm using today is pretty different from the one I used in 2002. I need a professional that will hit the ground running. I hired a 50+ year old on my last hire, and he worked for me for 5 years and he was never very good at his job. He kept saying very outdated things, and never was very good technically. Given that I am nearly 50, I am banking that his shortfalls are individual, but if I have to hire again, I will look for recent technical skills so the person can get their job done. I won't go on faith that 20 working years must mean he is proficient. I would look a little further....was he 50 and never really progressed very far in his career? The Controller at our sister company is 55 and she is kick ass with the systems (she is my go to person when I have issues!).
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 20, 2014 9:44:38 GMT -5
You can't change this game. I would put your holistic self to work at making your core shine through to the mundane world while playing by the mundane rules-even though you don't agree with them. Do you have a word of power statement with your goals to focus on?
I love copperpouches plan: get a job, then get an entry level job in your field, then get a better job in your field.
Have you looked at call centers in your area? I worked for dish network and a former owner of Comcast back in the day and they had good paths to IT related jobs. Start taking general calls, move into tech support and move up the chain. They had tuition reimbursement and people absolutely moved into the NOC. Or other paths where people moved into corporate jobs in every department imaginable.
Everyone here wants you to succeed. Good luck!
Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 9:53:15 GMT -5
Even in finance, the technology from 5 years ago is different enough that if you were a spreadsheet master in the 90's, you will have to relearn everything from scratch. 5 years ago we were using Excel 2003. I recall the learning curve for 2007 - I'm not ready to ride that wave again with a new person. The SAP I'm using today is pretty different from the one I used in 2002. I need a professional that will hit the ground running. I hired a 50+ year old on my last hire, and he worked for me for 5 years and he was never very good at his job. He kept saying very outdated things, and never was very good technically. Given that I am nearly 50, I am banking that his shortfalls are individual, but if I have to hire again, I will look for recent technical skills so the person can get their job done. I won't go on faith that 20 working years must mean he is proficient. it depends on what someone is hiring for if for instance, it is a doer, i want the younger newer skillset people for those roles if it is a manager, i want the older more established, been through the trials of fire types experience, life skills, people skills, and ability to deal with crisis management are great attributes for my managers for my doers, i want results.....that is the bottom line how fast can they hit the mark, and keep the production flowing others may make decisions differently.....this is how i think when i hire
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 20, 2014 10:06:11 GMT -5
Lose the attitude and update your skills. Plenty of businesses want older workers because they actually come to work because they didnt tie one on over the weekend.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 10:08:22 GMT -5
Optimist, In my opinion - you are spending far too much time and energy philosophizing on why you are where you are at, why certain situations, people, institutions, and practices are wrong, and trying to get others to agree with your conclusions. You are where you are at. period. If you don't like it there, you need to plan a path out, not spend all your limited time and energy <per your info> looking back and trying to assess, quantify, analyze and re-analyze the path that got your there. If a hiring decision maker thinks your skills are out of date. They are. You give them what they are looking for or they'll find it somewhere else. Where are you now? What have you got to offer? What are 'they' looking for? Pick your best match and go forward to secure a new spot - then work up from there. Well put, Rukh. The business world is what it is, at this point in history. Does ageism and bias against the long-term unemployed suck? Yes. But you can't change it by waxing philosophic about it. Figure out what they need (not what you need) right now and how you can fill it better than the next guy sitting in the lobby. And then show them that. POSTS OF THE DAY
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 20, 2014 10:09:28 GMT -5
Lose the attitude and update your skills. Plenty of businesses want older workers because they actually come to work because they didnt tie one on over the weekend. That actually isn't true at all. In a professional setting, having someone not show up to work because they are hung over is not something that would ever enter my mind when I am hiring. I don't hire for factory jobs, I am hiring professionals. never in my career in public accounting did one of my hires (mostly young, but a few pushing 40) ever lose their job because they were too busy partying. At my current company, we have only let one A/P clerk go for calling off constantly. There were days she would come in looking like she was at the corner bar all night. She was 45.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 20, 2014 10:13:33 GMT -5
DF hires for both. He'd much rather have older workers. I can understand why because of his experiences.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 20, 2014 10:48:57 GMT -5
That actually isn't true at all. In a professional setting, having someone not show up to work because they are hung over is not something that would ever enter my mind when I am hiring. I don't hire for factory jobs, I am hiring professionals. never in my career in public accounting did one of my hires (mostly young, but a few pushing 40) ever lose their job because they were too busy partying. At my current company, we have only let one A/P clerk go for calling off constantly. There were days she would come in looking like she was at the corner bar all night. She was 45. Plenty of youngun can drink to excess and get in to work and do the job right. It's the older functioning alcoholics that are losing the functioning part that are more problematic So true...I could drink with the best of then in my younger days and be fine the next day. Now if I truly over-indulge the damn hangover is a two day event
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 20, 2014 10:54:21 GMT -5
My old Coach purse has been in use since Friday when I picked it up from the Chinese guy. (Turns out $25 was a good deal on the zipper repair.
Your old Coach purse would have been repaired free at Coach.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 20, 2014 11:03:49 GMT -5
My Toys R Us Geoffrey pin on a favorite jacket was already noticed. Is this supposed to signify to employers that you're young and hip? I guess I'm confused about how this works...
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Feb 20, 2014 11:06:36 GMT -5
My Toys R Us Geoffrey pin on a favorite jacket was already noticed. Is this supposed to signify to employers that you're young and hip? I guess I'm confused about how this works... I don't get it either.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 20, 2014 11:11:01 GMT -5
Optimist, In my opinion - you are spending far too much time and energy philosophizing on why you are where you are at, why certain situations, people, institutions, and practices are wrong, and trying to get others to agree with your conclusions. You are where you are at. period. If you don't like it there, you need to plan a path out, not spend all your limited time and energy <per your info> looking back and trying to assess, quantify, analyze and re-analyze the path that got your there. If a hiring decision maker thinks your skills are out of date. They are. You give them what they are looking for or they'll find it somewhere else. Where are you now? What have you got to offer? What are 'they' looking for? Pick your best match and go forward to secure a new spot - then work up from there. This is it exactly. I have been out of my field for 2 years now, recovering from this mess. Other than the fact that I cannot now physically do the job, nor should I be in a lab for personal reasons (reinfection is likely going to put me in a wheelchair and I increase my risk by returning to a microbiology lab), 2 years has gone by....and that is long enough to leave me scrambling to upgrade skills. As the better part of the 2 years I was on narcotics, keeping up with the skills was impossible (as evidenced by my inability to complete my thesis). I had to step back and look what was available locally. The idea of going back to school again to remake myself at 54 scares the crap out of me....The only advantage is that my undergrad degree is not that far off and i should be able to use some of it. I have to hope that my lab experience will make future employers look at me in a different way. My past has shown that I was employed steadily for 30 years. My future hopes that the willingness to remake myself to adjust to needs is an advantage as well. It is all a crap shoot, but better than sitting around on disabled and not willing to remake myself into something useful and current.
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nogooddeed
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Post by nogooddeed on Feb 20, 2014 15:43:03 GMT -5
Is this supposed to signify to employers that you're young and hip? I guess I'm confused about how this works... I don't get it either. As someone who hires several times a year, a Geoffrey pin would definitely cause me to stop, pause and go WTF?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 20, 2014 15:58:12 GMT -5
It has made me wonder if the youth culture of the US and even this board has made us collectively more stupid than we need to be.
Having skills that are relevant and employers wanting skills that are relevant is not stupid. Life is not static it didn't stop moving forward since the last time you updated your certifications. Refusing to adapt with the times and bring your IT skills into 2014 because you don't think you should have to is stupid.
It'd be like me putting down I know Liquid Chromatography and expecting my boss to be impressed. People haven't done basic LC since the 90's. HPLC/UHPLC is where it is at and eventually I'll need to learn LC-MS in order to keep up.
It'd be a novelty to talk to prospective bosses about but if that is all that is on my resume I'm not getting the job. It shows I'm unable to adapt and unwilling to learn anything new because if I was I'd be aware that my skill set is not practical for the year 2014.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 20, 2014 16:13:37 GMT -5
Huh?
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