Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 3, 2014 13:41:50 GMT -5
It's always going to be a "let him who is standing beware he doesn't fall" kind of thing for recovering addicts.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 3, 2014 13:47:51 GMT -5
You're always an addict. It's what type you are that matters. You'er either active, sober or recovering.
Problem is many people think that getting sober is all there is to it and it's not. You have to learn how to completely change your mindset so you don't fall back into old habits.
Relapse is part of the process for many. It starts way before you pick up whatever your vice is. To stay a recovering addict you need to be able to stop before you pick up the needle.
You should absolutely check yourself into rehab if you're getting to the point of being an active user. Checking yourself back into rehab does not mean you failed.
Unfortunately for PSH it appears he didn't make it thru or didn't seek the proper help before his demons caught up with him.
That doesn't mean rehab doesn't work for many people, there are quite a few people in Hollywood just for example that have remained recovering addicts for decades. There are also plenty of people in RL it works for.
My DH is a success story but you'd never know it unless we told you. Success stories aren't going to make the news.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Feb 3, 2014 13:48:30 GMT -5
::Addiction is a mental "disease" (for lack of a better term) - the object of that addiction is irrelevant. So I don't believe that someone chooses to be an addict any more than someone chooses to get a physical ailment.:: No one chooses to be an addict, but one can certainly choose not to become addicted to drugs. Barring children born addicted, i have yet to see any study anywhere that shows someone becoming a drug addict without ever having made the decision to try drugs (again, barring children born that way or someone forcibly made to try them). Whether he is an addict or not, he chose to do drugs the first time. He was not addicted to drugs when he did them the first time. When you choose to do drugs, you choose to take the risk that you will be addicted. Just like when you choose to smoke you choose to take the risk you will develop lung cancer. Those 2 things have far more user-created consequences than some guy who wakes up one day with brain cancer and no one has any idea why. You don't become addicted to things you choose never to try. I choose not to be addicted to heroin, how do i choose that? I don't try it. Simple. It's not like he is addicted to water, and he HAS to have it to live and therefore must try it. Which is why we work so hard to keep drugs away from kids. Several of these drugs can be addicting with just the first use. Some try them and are able to walk away, others are not so fortunate. Young teens don't always have the foresight to know what the consequences of trying these drugs are. One wrong move when you are 13 and your whole life is screwed. But I still argue that addicts display other tendencies & behaviors even before trying the addictive substance. Coming from a family full of those who struggle with this issue, I can anecdotally say I've seen it, but we all know that doesn't mean it's 100% true for every single case.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 3, 2014 13:49:31 GMT -5
You're always an addict. It's what type you are that matters. You'er either active, sober or recovering. Problem is many people think that getting sober is all there is to it and it's not. You have to learn how to completely change your mindset so you don't fall back into old habits. Relapse is part of the process for many. It starts way before you pick up whatever your vice is. To stay a recovering addict you need to be able to stop before you pick up the needle. You should absolutely check yourself into rehab if you're getting to the point of being an active user. Checking yourself back into rehab does not mean you failed. Unfortunately for PSH it appears he didn't make it thru or didn't seek the proper help before his demons caught up with him. That doesn't mean rehab doesn't work for many people, there are quite a few people in Hollywood just for example that have remained recovering addicts for decades. There are also plenty of people in RL it works for. My DH is a success story but you'd never know it unless we told you. Success stories aren't going to make the news. I just saw a blurb on the AP feed that there were some kind of rehab drugs also in his system, as well as muscle relaxers. So, perhaps he had made some kind of attempt to fight the relapse but it was insufficient for whatever was going on in his head.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 3, 2014 13:52:09 GMT -5
::It is hard to grieve a death that could have been prevented, and even worse when others who weren't personally affected by it feel it's their place to pass judgment on the manner of death.
I doubt his friends or family read this site, but what if they did? They're the ones who have to live with his actions, not any of us. ::
What if any of the random people in any number of articles we read and comment on post here? Should we pass a rule that no one may say anything negative about anyone or anything ever "just in case" they happen to read these boards?
We aren't the ones who have to live with the consequences of someone who goes on a school shooting rampage, or someone who doesn't pay their bills and declares bankruptcy, or someone who beats their kids. The point of a discussion board is a discussion of opinion. It's not as if people are crashing his funeral to tell his family what a piece of shit this guy is. You don't see a slight difference between the money-related articles and opinions discussed here and calling someone who isn't even in the ground yet "an idiot", "selfish", etc.? (Not directing this only at you, there were other comments). Of course we shouldn't have to censor ourselves from ever discussing something that might hurt someone's feelings. But I think death falls into a different category than the other topics listed.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 3, 2014 13:59:11 GMT -5
You don't see a slight difference between the money-related articles and opinions discussed here and calling someone who isn't even in the ground yet "an idiot", "selfish", etc.? (Not directing this only at you, there were other comments). But, addicts ARE selfish. Here's the definition I googled. (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
Wish it weren't true, but it is. The high is the first love. Not kids, not a SO, not work, the high. It's not a description meant to hurt other people's feelings. It's a description based on fact. I just feel lucky that like Drama H's, my H is doing well, too.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 3, 2014 14:04:35 GMT -5
You don't see a slight difference between the money-related articles and opinions discussed here and calling someone who isn't even in the ground yet "an idiot", "selfish", etc.? (Not directing this only at you, there were other comments). But, addicts ARE selfish. Here's the definition I googled. (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
Wish it weren't true, but it is. The high is the first love. Not kids, not a SO, not work, the high. I just feel lucky that like Drama H's, my H is doing well, too. I'm not disputing that addiction is, at its core, a selfish behavior. But once the addict has taken his own life, what's the purpose of name-calling? The addict isn't around to hear it, and the family is already painfully aware of the selfishness of the addiction.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 3, 2014 14:05:20 GMT -5
::It is hard to grieve a death that could have been prevented, and even worse when others who weren't personally affected by it feel it's their place to pass judgment on the manner of death.
I doubt his friends or family read this site, but what if they did? They're the ones who have to live with his actions, not any of us. ::
What if any of the random people in any number of articles we read and comment on post here? Should we pass a rule that no one may say anything negative about anyone or anything ever "just in case" they happen to read these boards?
We aren't the ones who have to live with the consequences of someone who goes on a school shooting rampage, or someone who doesn't pay their bills and declares bankruptcy, or someone who beats their kids. The point of a discussion board is a discussion of opinion. It's not as if people are crashing his funeral to tell his family what a piece of shit this guy is. You don't see a slight difference between the money-related articles and opinions discussed here and calling someone who isn't even in the ground yet "an idiot", "selfish", etc.? (Not directing this only at you, there were other comments). Of course we shouldn't have to censor ourselves from ever discussing something that might hurt someone's feelings. But I think death falls into a different category than the other topics listed. We are also asked not to continue discussing people on the board who have officially left the board, on the reasoning that they aren't here to defend themselves.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 3, 2014 14:28:39 GMT -5
I'm not disputing that addiction is, at its core, a selfish behavior. But once the addict has taken his own life, what's the purpose of name-calling? The addict isn't around to hear it, and the family is already painfully aware of the selfishness of the addiction. I guess I don't see it as name calling. I'm fat. Morbidly obese, actually. It's not name calling to say I'm fat. (Though, I'll give you that it isn't polite to point it out..) But it is the truth of a small part of who I am. I wouldn't expect upon my death that people start to spin my weight into something it's not or expect people to gloss over the negatives of me, simply because I'm dead. Being dead doesn't erase all my poor qualities. Being dead just gives me no time to fix them. And I wouldn't expect others to stop speaking what they feel are their truths about me or my behaviors simply because I'm dead.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 14:48:18 GMT -5
I'm not disputing that addiction is, at its core, a selfish behavior. But once the addict has taken his own life, what's the purpose of name-calling? The addict isn't around to hear it, and the family is already painfully aware of the selfishness of the addiction. Other "creative" types and kids are around to hear what we say. And to eulogize him as a tragic genius is too glamorous and sends the wrong message.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 3, 2014 14:49:45 GMT -5
::Addiction is a mental "disease" (for lack of a better term) - the object of that addiction is irrelevant. So I don't believe that someone chooses to be an addict any more than someone chooses to get a physical ailment.:: No one chooses to be an addict, but one can certainly choose not to become addicted to drugs. Barring children born addicted, i have yet to see any study anywhere that shows someone becoming a drug addict without ever having made the decision to try drugs (again, barring children born that way or someone forcibly made to try them). Whether he is an addict or not, he chose to do drugs the first time. He was not addicted to drugs when he did them the first time. When you choose to do drugs, you choose to take the risk that you will be addicted. Just like when you choose to smoke you choose to take the risk you will develop lung cancer. Those 2 things have far more user-created consequences than some guy who wakes up one day with brain cancer and no one has any idea why. You don't become addicted to things you choose never to try. I choose not to be addicted to heroin, how do i choose that? I don't try it. Simple. It's not like he is addicted to water, and he HAS to have it to live and therefore must try it. Aren't you contradicting yourself?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 3, 2014 14:53:17 GMT -5
I'm not disputing that addiction is, at its core, a selfish behavior. But once the addict has taken his own life, what's the purpose of name-calling? The addict isn't around to hear it, and the family is already painfully aware of the selfishness of the addiction. I guess I don't see it as name calling. I'm fat. Morbidly obese, actually. It's not name calling to say I'm fat. (Though, I'll give you that it isn't polite to point it out..) But it is the truth of a small part of who I am. I wouldn't expect upon my death that people start to spin my weight into something it's not or expect people to gloss over the negatives of me, simply because I'm dead. Being dead doesn't erase all my poor qualities. Being dead just gives me no time to fix them. And I wouldn't expect others to stop speaking what they feel are their truths about me or my behaviors simply because I'm dead. Gira, the more I read your posts, the more I admire your logic and your outlook on life and just who you are.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 3, 2014 14:56:18 GMT -5
How sad. I lost my beloved brother to an overdose, and it is a sad thing. Heroin destroys lives. My heart goes out to the family.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 3, 2014 14:59:19 GMT -5
::Addiction is a mental "disease" (for lack of a better term) - the object of that addiction is irrelevant. So I don't believe that someone chooses to be an addict any more than someone chooses to get a physical ailment.:: No one chooses to be an addict, but one can certainly choose not to become addicted to drugs. Barring children born addicted, i have yet to see any study anywhere that shows someone becoming a drug addict without ever having made the decision to try drugs (again, barring children born that way or someone forcibly made to try them). Whether he is an addict or not, he chose to do drugs the first time. He was not addicted to drugs when he did them the first time. When you choose to do drugs, you choose to take the risk that you will be addicted. Just like when you choose to smoke you choose to take the risk you will develop lung cancer. Those 2 things have far more user-created consequences than some guy who wakes up one day with brain cancer and no one has any idea why. You don't become addicted to things you choose never to try. I choose not to be addicted to heroin, how do i choose that? I don't try it. Simple. It's not like he is addicted to water, and he HAS to have it to live and therefore must try it. Aren't you contradicting yourself? No, he isn't contradicting himself. One does not choose to be an addict, one simply is or is not one. There is no choice involved. However, one does choose to take drugs or not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 14:59:49 GMT -5
Petunia I'm sorry for what you and your family have gone through.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 3, 2014 15:02:37 GMT -5
Aren't you contradicting yourself?
DH is wired different than me, he has an addictive personality. I can put a dollar in a slot and walk away. DH puts a dollar in a slot and off he goes. I find the way I feel on pain pills sucks, he finds it very appealing.
He doesn't choose how his brain is wired.
It is his choice to pick up a bottle of pain pills to deal with his issues or seek alternative non-destructive ways to deal with things.
He is aware he is an addict and has an addictive personality. It's why he's currently a teetoatler, he has no desire to replace former vices for alcohol. He knows himself well enough that going to the bar on a regular basis can turn out badly. If he did it anyonw he's knowingly taking the chance he could end up an alcoholic.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 3, 2014 15:03:03 GMT -5
::Aren't you contradicting yourself?::
I don't think so. No one chooses to be an addict (in the general sense of having that chemical structure that causes addiction).
One does make a choice to take part in an activity that may lead them to being addicted to that activity though.
I cannot choose to be addicted to alcohol. I may drink alcohol, but my addiction to it or non-addiction to it is not a choice. I can certainly control NOT being addicted to alcohol by never using it though. My choice to use alcohol though is not a choice to be addicted to it, particularly if I do not know that I have the chemical makeup of an addict. At most, i can choose to take the risk that I will be addicted to something (by using something which is more likely to be addictive than other things).
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 3, 2014 15:19:24 GMT -5
I'm not disputing that addiction is, at its core, a selfish behavior. But once the addict has taken his own life, what's the purpose of name-calling? The addict isn't around to hear it, and the family is already painfully aware of the selfishness of the addiction. Other "creative" types and kids are around to hear what we say. And to eulogize him as a tragic genius is too glamorous and sends the wrong message. Celebrating a person's gifts and contributions in life is not the wrong message. Recognizing and discussing the traps that may have led him to make such bad decisions is also not a wrong message. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It seems to me that discussing the fact that addiction is not something you ever fully get over, that perhaps surrounding yourself with an environment where drugs are easy to come by is a bad plan, and recognizing that 'creative' people may have a higher tendency to instability and suicide might be a very good thing for kids to hear so that they learn how to avoid traps themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 15:51:41 GMT -5
There is no baby in the bathwater. This is a man who had a lot of good things in his life and he threw them away. He isn't a victim. This was his choice. Do you know that his kids are something like 10, 8 and 6?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 3, 2014 15:55:28 GMT -5
There is no baby in the bathwater. This is a man who had a lot of good things in his life and he threw them away. He isn't a victim. This was his choice. Do you know that his kids are something like 10, 8 and 6? And do you know that there are kids out there who might learn from his tragic example, if we're willing to discuss it rather than just say, 'he should have known better'? I see nothing wrong with celebrating those good things he did in his life as well as discussing some of the various aspects of the terrible decisions and how he may have reached that point. But, obviously, YMMV.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 3, 2014 16:02:22 GMT -5
It seems to me that discussing the fact that addiction is not something you ever fully get over, that perhaps surrounding yourself with an environment where drugs are easy to come by is a bad plan, and recognizing that 'creative' people may have a higher tendency to instability and suicide might be a very good thing for kids to hear so that they learn how to avoid traps themselves. Actually, I think the better thing to do is to teach kids healthy ways to deal with their emotions, rather than to stay away from drugs. DH was a good child in the 80s and stayed away from drugs/drinking.. Nancy Reagan and having an alcoholic grandfather had quite the impression on him. So, he just chose to self-medicate with something else...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 3, 2014 16:14:31 GMT -5
I will argue that a LOT of people have addictive personalities. The problem with being addicted to certain things that it can end up very badly and being addicted to other things can make you a hero.
Also, it seems that many of you think that people have very little say in how they live their lives. I find that very interesting.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 3, 2014 16:20:47 GMT -5
What things can people be addicted to and considered a hero?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 3, 2014 16:21:53 GMT -5
Sadly, even being addicted to the things that make you famous or popular - like performing in front of an audience or winning at sports or playing your music - can lead to other problems when people's popularity suffers and they no longer get those 'highs'.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 3, 2014 16:23:43 GMT -5
Eh... one more dead junkie with a needle in his arm. Happens everyday. He's a selfish prick to do that to his kids. That's about all I have to say about it.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 3, 2014 16:25:40 GMT -5
What things can people be addicted to and considered a hero? One of the defintions of addiction is an " unusually great interest in something or a need to do or have something" or "compulsive need"
So, someone working 24/7 and inventing something or curing something will be a hero. I doubt we will say that he has a disease. Same with artists, etc
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 3, 2014 16:26:41 GMT -5
I know a lot of people who like to say they are addicted to something like chocolate or excercise. The clinical definition of addiction is totally different. Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response.
www.asam.org/for-the-public/definition-of-addiction
DH fits the clinical definition. My love of chocolate covered pretzels is not an addiction.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 3, 2014 16:31:18 GMT -5
So, someone working 24/7 and inventing something or curing something will be a hero.
He doesn't have a problem unless he meets the criteria I stated. You can call it an addiction if you want but your cure seeking guy wouldn't meet the clinical definition of an addict just because he is working 24/7 towards a goal.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 3, 2014 16:33:17 GMT -5
I know a lot of people who like to say they are addicted to something like chocolate or excercise. The clinical definition of addiction is totally different. Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response.
www.asam.org/for-the-public/definition-of-addiction
DH fits the clinical definition. My love of chocolate covered pretzels is not an addiction. ALL OF THAT can be applied to someone who is working working working on some project and can't stop. Or painting or writing a novel or whatever. But we don't try to cure them. We think they are brilliant and blah blah blah. I don't know how it started that drug/alcohol/food addictions became a "disease", but like I said, I would argue that a LOT of people have addictive personalities. We can't all be sick. At some point there has to be a choice there, somewhere
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 3, 2014 16:34:51 GMT -5
So, someone working 24/7 and inventing something or curing something will be a hero.
He doesn't have a problem unless he meets the criteria I stated. You can call it an addiction if you want but your cure seeking guy wouldn't meet the clinical definition of an addict just because he is working 24/7 towards a goal. Yes, he will. He would want to go to the lab in the middle of the night bc he thought of something. He will forgo a relationship bc he is *that* close to his answer. He will forget to eat and sleep bc the experiment is "almost over". How is that different?
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