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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2011 21:13:00 GMT -5
One of the things i read today, i would have to search it out, but it said math/reading scores have been increasing, and it is surprising BECAUSE the increase in minority student... and minority students generally do not perform on the tests as well...
A lot of this is due to discrepancies in opportunities, but some can be contributed to test bias, and that should not be overlooked...
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 20, 2011 21:47:28 GMT -5
One of the things i read today, i would have to search it out, but it said math/reading scores have been increasing, and it is surprising BECAUSE the increase in minority student... and minority students generally do not perform on the tests as well... A lot of this is due to discrepancies in opportunities, but some can be contributed to test bias, and that should not be overlooked... Yeah - but the vast majority of teens/young adults are totally clueless when it comes to making change ( a basically addition - subtraction transaction)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2011 21:55:31 GMT -5
Who is the 'vast majority' you speak of? Where is your research? Anecdotal? I posted the stats that say greater than 90%, actually 92-98% of students in 12th grade can handle those tasks...
Are you generalizing from a happy meal experience ?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 20, 2011 21:58:33 GMT -5
"Can I ask how you found your way here? Some of us have been putting out little posts of welcome and links to here, and any help in how you found us is helpful since we are new and looking to grow, new people."
Thank you for the warm welcome, but have been following and posting on the old MSN money boards for years. I just didn't post in January since I was busy. I found this board becuase everyone on the MSN boards said they were coming here, and I enjoy the intellegent conversation.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 20, 2011 22:05:45 GMT -5
"Can I ask how you found your way here? Some of us have been putting out little posts of welcome and links to here, and any help in how you found us is helpful since we are new and looking to grow, new people." Thank you for the warm welcome, but have been following and posting on the old MSN money boards for years. I just didn't post in January since I was busy. I found this board becuase everyone on the MSN boards said they were coming here, and I enjoy the intellegent conversation. " and I enjoy the intellegent conversation". Which means you have been going some where else...where, where, please, pretty please , tell us.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 20, 2011 22:52:16 GMT -5
Who is the 'vast majority' you speak of? Where is your research? Anecdotal? I posted the stats that say greater than 90%, actually 92-98% of students in 12th grade can handle those tasks...
Are you generalizing from a happy meal experience ?
maybe it's only a vast majority of teens and young adults that work cash registers that can't handle simple math? ;D ;D ;D ;D
the rest(the real vast majority of the demograph, can?)
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 20, 2011 22:56:40 GMT -5
>>Most public unions are making concessions at this time... as Wisconson has signaled their willingness to do... they are willing to pay into pension/health care... they are NOT willing to give up collective bargaining rights...<< They weren't willing to do this for the last three years...only after Walker made his move with this bill. They hit people with fixed/limited incomes with 8-10% school property tax raises for the past two years. To hell with these greedy, uncaring unions... >>Gee, where I live we elect a school board that negotiates with teachers to pay them out of monies raised by taxes approved either directly be vote of citizens or indirectly by our elected representatives<< And there's the rub...these elected representatives for the past few years have been in the pockets of unions. Not a very "fair" situation is it? It is the EXACT same thing that you libs complain about with Republicans and big business...oh, but that's right - hypocrisy is your M.O.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Feb 21, 2011 2:13:44 GMT -5
The whole issue of public vs. private unions seems to be getting a little muddled here. There are some unions which have only public sector employees: I remember the old AFSCME of state, county and municipal employees (I think that was the acronym). But many unions have both private and public sector employees, like the IBEW, my old union the Operating Engineers, SEIU and others.
Early in my life, I was also a member of the Steelworkers' Union. I never saw that my union affiliations helped me out one damned bit, save that I learned how they all work. When coming up upon a contract negotiation period, they call a meeting at a local hotel and get a room with a fully stocked bar. They get some stooges to go around to people in groups to bad mouth management with unsupported allegations about how much money they were making and how only the 'company men' were getting raises as the stooges pour the booze. They promote everybody to tell their own stories about how they think management was screwing them, and of course it wasn't hard to find volunteers after they had been adequately greased.
My experience was that having a union job was like having two bosses, both of which disagree with each other about everything.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Feb 21, 2011 7:53:22 GMT -5
I don't get why we should distinquish between public and private unions. They are both input costs to everything we purchase. Private unions add to the cost of production of a product or service, public unions add to the taxes that are paid on the company's profit or at the register in a sales tax. Everything we do that costs money, costs more because of union control. If life costs you $20k per year, then a piece of that goes to funding strong unions. I was not trying to switch opinion for those that are pro, simi-pro, or anti union. I was just curious how much value you place on union particpation. GG you are willing to pay more, if you find union products. How much more? As the owner of the company, except for the problem of keeping a good working environment so you keep your employees and are able to hire new ones if needed, your prime obligation is maximizing profits for the company, {You} , stockholders, {probably you too} and if you can do it, by taking $ from your employees, and still keeping them and being able to get new ones, you probably, [not probably but will } do so. A union will help protect the workers to get a fairer piece of the profits. If a good union, will work together as a team to protect workers as well as the company they work for to keep competitive and viable and able to continue to keep the workers employed. If a bad union, bad leadership, as with a bad employer, bad management, then the opposite happens, both sides have numerouse examples of both I am afraid. Are your workers union represented?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 21, 2011 8:17:27 GMT -5
Absolutly, the good lord above...he represents all the ones who are retired.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 21, 2011 8:25:08 GMT -5
The whole issue of public vs. private unions seems to be getting a little muddled here. There are some unions which have only public sector employees: I remember the old AFSCME of state, county and municipal employees (I think that was the acronym). But many unions have both private and public sector employees, like the IBEW, my old union the Operating Engineers, SEIU and others. Early in my life, I was also a member of the Steelworkers' Union. I never saw that my union affiliations helped me out one damned bit, save that I learned how they all work. When coming up upon a contract negotiation period, they call a meeting at a local hotel and get a room with a fully stocked bar. They get some stooges to go around to people in groups to bad mouth management with unsupported allegations about how much money they were making and how only the 'company men' were getting raises as the stooges pour the booze. They promote everybody to tell their own stories about how they think management was screwing them, and of course it wasn't hard to find volunteers after they had been adequately greased. My experience was that having a union job was like having two bosses, both of which disagree with each other about everything. "I never saw that my union affiliations helped me out one damned bit" I would suggest just look at your per hourly, figure in any benefits like health, possible if vested , a pension you put very little into...if a while ago ...vacation days or did the plant close down for maintenance once a year and you were still paid, vacation time. With all the hotel meeting rooms , I am sure the union , even of leadership was living high on the hog..it helped you out . You probab ly dkust didn't appreciate it, withn all it's possible warts, unless you think managemeent paid you what you were getting because they thought you were a good old boy and wanted to take as good care of you and possible family as they could. Pay what you were worth from a company stand point , plus a bit just because.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Feb 21, 2011 8:29:12 GMT -5
Absolutly, the good lord above...he represents all the ones who are retired. You mean the ones that believe in him right?
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 21, 2011 8:37:03 GMT -5
Re: Union vs Non-union
The crisis in Wisconsin may be perceived as Union vs Non-Union but if you research the issues they boil down to one major issue:
The Wisconsin state workers and the unions are protesting against the Republican's bill to eliminate collective bargaining rights for state workers. This is a state workers union protest and not unions in general..IMHO State Workers Union collective bargaining rules and regulations restrict the members and states from making concessions in a timely manner and often last for 12 to 18 months with no compromises...Walker may have discussed this with Schwarzenegger and other Republican Governors who got nowhere trying to cut salaries or benefits for their state workers. Schwarzenegger tried for 15 months to reach an agreement with the SEIU and Teachers Unions in CA but got nowhere.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 21, 2011 8:56:35 GMT -5
I can understand fully how some would see it as union vs non union . For years now the rhetoric against union workers ,private and public has been flying.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 21, 2011 9:00:21 GMT -5
I just don't see how the state workers unions will agree to the elimination of collective bargaining.. Union lawyers and National Unions would have to give up something they want and that is not likely IMHO
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 21, 2011 9:05:08 GMT -5
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 21, 2011 9:09:49 GMT -5
In Wisconsin the dems are willing to compromise on Walker's proposal except for the elimination of collective bargaining which is the sticking point. But we don't know if the State Workers Unions argee with the state Dems or not??
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 21, 2011 10:24:56 GMT -5
They can also vote in their representatives, who negotiate with the teachers and make hiring decisions.. or even run for those positions... they have a say... True, unless you live in WI.....
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 21, 2011 10:36:59 GMT -5
I, personally, suspect that... Skweet didn't state a fact....just a suspicion....right, wrong or indifferent, it's just his opinion.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 21, 2011 10:37:20 GMT -5
Absolutly, the good lord above...he represents all the ones who are retired. You mean the ones that believe in him right? Naaa , he over looks those who have that problem, but he might get back at them when they show up before him and do a bit of chastizing, time outs, sitting in the corner...or even.....
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 21, 2011 10:38:27 GMT -5
I, personally, suspect that...Skweet didn't state a fact....just a suspicion....right, wrong or indifferent, it's just his opinion. Opinions are good here , yup they are.... ;D
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 21, 2011 10:43:39 GMT -5
Seems the unions are in agreements of the give backs, those who are loudly protesting, well they don't like it , but from what I understand from the media, the Democrat legislatures who are AWOL are in agreement on two of the Governors planks , their objection seems to center on the "collective bargaining " issue.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 21, 2011 13:08:38 GMT -5
Union Protests are now spreading to other states......Ohio may start protests tomorrow, and then another 19 depending on how WI works out. So the question is if this happen what role with Obama play Will he back the state governors who want to reduce their state workers insurance and pension costs?? Or will he back the state unions?? This should be interesting I guess???
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 21, 2011 13:10:46 GMT -5
Union Protests are now spreading to other states......Ohio may start protest tomorrow, and then another 19 depending on how WI works out. WI Governor has scheduled a news conference today at 5PM today.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 21, 2011 14:47:15 GMT -5
The major difference I see is that there is really no comparison that can be done between a union of private sector employees and a union of public sector employees. In the private sector the union is somewhat self regulating because many have come to the realization that reducing the margins for your company could very easily result in your job leaving town or your country so there is risk in making to many or to large of a demand and the negotiator is responsible to someone for the results of their negotiations . In the public sector there is no "competition" for your job so there is little to no risk in holding out and negotiating for a larger increase or better benefits and the negotiating party has been allowed to just borrow the money to pay for it and kick the can down the road for the next generation to pay for.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 21, 2011 14:57:30 GMT -5
In the private sector the union is somewhat self regulating because many have come to the realization that reducing the margins for your company could very easily result in your job leaving town or your country so there is risk in making to many or to large of a demand and the negotiator is responsible to someone for the results of their negotiations. Unless you're a too big to fail US auto manufacturer.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 21, 2011 15:10:16 GMT -5
Actually even their employees came to the table and gave some pretty big concessions in recent years which has not always been easy to do with the automakers union. Of course there are also a lot of questions about the conflict of them becoming a major owner in the company that the employees pay them to represent them to and the wisdom of having the government give them billions of our tax dollars but I guess thats a whole different subject.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 21, 2011 15:22:30 GMT -5
Unions had their purpose but now work to keep the group as a whole equal. The people at the bottom know they don't need to work hard to get similar pay and benefits as the person who is the hardest workers. So, the hardest workers end up doing more than their fair share of work.
A hard and smart worker can use their union membership to their benefit. My mother's husband is a union worker.
We've negotiated an exclusive contract with a private company that allows him to work on union sites without the union tying itself to the private company and their shop [they will come in and try to take over the private company].
Now the private company doesn't have to pay the union worker and their own when they go out on these jobs and my mother's husband has more than quadrupled his overall income and taking full advantage of the solo 401k. We'll pay the union 1% for that. In a few more years, we'll begin cherry picking their best employees to be the employees of his company.
His pension from his previous employer is a f'ing joke. Can't believe how badly he was getting screwed by the previous set up.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 21, 2011 15:47:44 GMT -5
Re: Union vs Non-union The crisis in Wisconsin may be perceived as Union vs Non-Union but if you research the issues they boil down to one major issue: The Wisconsin state workers and the unions are protesting against the Republican's bill to eliminate collective bargaining rights for state workers. This is a state workers union protest and not unions in general..IMHOState Workers Union collective bargaining rules and regulations restrict the members and states from making concessions in a timely manner and often last for 12 to 18 months with no compromises...Walker may have discussed this with Schwarzenegger and other Republican Governors who got nowhere trying to cut salaries or benefits for their state workers. Schwarzenegger tried for 15 months to reach an agreement with the SEIU and Teachers Unions in CA but got nowhere. Why do you say it is a state worker's protest and it does not affect other Unions? You realize that Unions from all over the country were in Madison on Friday. My BIL a Local (MILW) Union rep was in Madison on Thursday and there were a lot of Union big wigs there. The issues all the unions are afraid of is 1) Not being allowed to force the collection of union dues. 2) losing the right to do collective bargaining for Benefits. And yes, the Milwaukee Teachers Union apparently has a rep of not supporting other unions. Those unions still showed up to support them because they [the unions] are very afraid this is the beginning of the end. BTW, since today is Presidents Day the Milwaukee and Madison School districts had a scheduled day off. I am sure there is going to be a huge crowd of protesting teachers in Madison today.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 21, 2011 15:52:48 GMT -5
In Wisconsin the dems are willing to compromise on Walker's proposal except for the elimination of collective bargaining which is the sticking point. But we don't know if the State Workers Unions agree with the state Dems or not?? P.I. Yes, the unions made that offer last Friday. Walker Declined to take them up on the offer. He says that the Benefits have too big an effect on the budgets and the Localities need to know that their budgets are set when they are drawing up a budget. WI schools get "Shared" revenue from the state in addition to relying solely on the property tax to support schools. To balance the budget, the shared revenues are dropping pretty drastically to my understanding. Which is why the Republicans feel this is very important to have it pass.
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