skweet
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Post by skweet on Feb 19, 2011 22:29:26 GMT -5
I am anti-union. I don't buy union company stocks. I try not to purchase union company goods. I would allow my company to disintegrate, before allowing a union to control it. That ... being ... disclosed. What is the limit to pro-union support. Would you support solving the immigration issue, and giving the union lobby most of its demands if: It raised your taxes $500 per year, and raised the cost of general living goods by 3%. What if: It raised your taxes $20k per year and the cost of goods by 25%. I am just curious. Again, fully disclosed, I think people have no idea the cost of union activity to their daily life, today. I, personally, suspect that ridding the country of unions could save the general consumer 50% of their costs of living in product prices and (passed through) taxes, but I am curious what the level of support actually is.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 19, 2011 22:52:39 GMT -5
No support here
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 19, 2011 23:08:52 GMT -5
Surprisingly, I am not pro-union. But I have to respect the unions in place.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 20, 2011 0:19:08 GMT -5
Unions improve the lives of my fellow citizens.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Feb 20, 2011 0:35:35 GMT -5
Unions improve the lives of my fellow citizens. Yeah, pushing manufacturing out of the US is great for the citizens. I don't like unions for their arrogance, including how the UAW doesn't like non American cars to park in their parking lots BUT they get their cronies to strongarm the US to bailout their worthless companies. I will NEVER buy a GM or Chrysler; NEVER.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 20, 2011 0:45:26 GMT -5
We are going to see the advancements of the last century in the lives of the general population quickly slip away. The loss of the significant right to assembly is one step in it.
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skweet
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Post by skweet on Feb 20, 2011 1:46:31 GMT -5
Unions improve the lives of my fellow citizens. What value do you place on this improvement to your fellow citizens? I assume you refuse to shop Walmart, drive a GM etc. Would you pay 10% more on your daily expenses for greater improvement to the lives of your fellow citizens? 15%?
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skweet
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Post by skweet on Feb 20, 2011 1:52:09 GMT -5
We are going to see the advancements of the last century in the lives of the general population quickly slip away. The loss of the significant right to assembly is one step in it. Right to assemble, and right to force assemblement on everyone in a group is not the same. I agree that individuals that want to collectively bargain, is fair, if the right to bargain individually is not eliminated by the group.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 20, 2011 2:46:42 GMT -5
I am anti-union. I don't buy union company stocks. I try not to purchase union company goods. I would allow my company to disintegrate, before allowing a union to control it. That ... being ... disclosed. What is the limit to pro-union support. Would you support solving the immigration issue, and giving the union lobby most of its demands if: It raised your taxes $500 per year, and raised the cost of general living goods by 3%. What if: It raised your taxes $20k per year and the cost of goods by 25%. I am just curious. Again, fully disclosed, I think people have no idea the cost of union activity to their daily life, today. I, personally, suspect that ridding the country of unions could save the general consumer 50% of their costs of living in product prices and (passed through) taxes, but I am curious what the level of support actually is. whew , the fact is union membership in unions is a bit above 12 % of the work force, yes it is, we went through this last week. Now if you think that 12 % union membership by American workers is causing our problems today , to be polite it isn't. As far as a union controlling your company, how about working as a jr partner, or possible you just like the idea that at any time, for what ever reason, good , bad , indifferent , as silly as it might be, you don't like the color of the socks a employee is wearing, you have the power to just let him go. No real reason reason given. Oh you make up a story , your the owner, your smart, but in the back of your mind as you escort him to the door wishing him well , of course you didn't tell him it was the socks ,you made up some cockamainee reason , to keep the troops happy , sad , but happy it wasn't them who was being walked to the door, but in the back of your mind your thinking, and that will teach the SOB to wear a yellow on one foot and purple on the other sock to my business.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 20, 2011 7:43:37 GMT -5
how about working as a jr partner, or possible you just like the idea that at any time, for what ever reason, good , bad , indifferent , as silly as it might be, you don't like the color of the socks a employee is wearing, you have the power to just let him go. No real reason reason given. Oh you make up a story , your the owner, your smart, but in the back of your mind as you escort him to the door wishing him well , of course you didn't tell him it was the socks ,you made up some cockamainee reason , to keep the troops happy , sad , but happy it wasn't them who was being walked to the door, but in the back of your mind your thinking, and that will teach the SOB to wear a yellow on one foot and purple on the other sock to my business. Unfortunately, in "right to work" states, that's exactly the situation workers face. An employee can be fired without cause. Conversely, an employee can quit without cause.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 20, 2011 7:55:30 GMT -5
I an not anti-union. My dad was in a union way back from about the mid 60s to roughly the mid to late 70s. We were poor and essentially living pay check to pay check. I had to pay for my college myself. When my dad was extricated from the death grip of the union and was moved into management, only then did my family's life improve dramatically. I had moved out by that time and was living out of state where I went to college. My families financial position change some much for the better that they were able to buy a house, and pay for my brothers complete college education.
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Post by frankq on Feb 20, 2011 9:41:24 GMT -5
It is extremely important to remember that PUBLIC EMPLOYEE unions and PRIVATE Employee unions are two VASTLY different things. The problem with the media is that they don't differentiate the two. The problem with average people is that they don't know the difference. There is NO PRIVATE employment union, like the electricians, pipefitters, etc that are supported with tax dollars. As a union member who contributes to his own benefits out of his compensation package, I find it disgusting that public employees refuse to do so. For decades, government/school employees have enjoyed real income gains and immunity from economic circumstances. It's time to end that practice. On the flip side, there isn't a white collar exec out there working without a contract. If a contract is good for them, it's good for every worker. That is what union representation is. It is obvious from many of the statements out here, that most don't have a clue as to what union representation is or does.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 20, 2011 10:20:11 GMT -5
This Pro Labor vs Non Labor state workers needs to be resolved not only in Wisconsin but in other states that also have unfunded State Pension Liabilities, or else these workers could end up with Zero Pensions...Private sectors employees who don't belong to unions are being asked to contribute more to their pensions and health care costs and that is why many of them are angry with the state unions...not only in Wisconsin but in Ohio, Michigan, New York, and California who are not going to be able to fund their state pensions in a few years without some concessions by the unions.
So I don't think it is a Union vs Non Union issue but rather a budget issue in states who cannot meet their obligations to the state pension funds or liabilities now or in the future without some union concessions as to contributions to health care and pensions....IMHO
Schwarzenegger tried for a year to negotiate this issue in CA with teachers and state workers unions and got nowhere. So in frustration he issued a proposal to pay state workers only the minimum wage since they refused to contribute to their health care and pensions. And that idea was easily rebuffed by the Dems who control this state and the unions who held some very active demonstrations in Sacramento and Los Angeles for a few weeks last year.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 20, 2011 10:26:24 GMT -5
Unions improve the lives of my fellow citizens.
how?
and break it down between private sector unions and public sector unions. TIA.
Frank,
#15
spot on ! three thumbs up.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 20, 2011 10:37:28 GMT -5
I was a union member for 32 years. My union negotiated a tuition package that allowed me to go back to college (on my own time after work) and complete my degree. Thanks to my union, I was not fired just prior to being eligible to retire. When times were tough, the union gave up a cola in order to preserve jobs. I'm now retired with an adequate, if not generous, pension. I do have healthcare (and contribute to the premium), thanks to the same union. People love to demonize unions, but I'm sorry to see unionized jobs go away. And, yes, I am willing to spend more when I can find union made products.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 20, 2011 10:40:05 GMT -5
I'm pretty divided on the subject. I have to really bite my tongue sometimes when family members start getting all amped up about unions (which seems to come around every time contract negotiations are imminent lol). I've got a lot of relatives who either were or currently are in the UAW, and sometimes they just make no sense whatsoever. For instance, I own some stock in the company my mother-in-law works for. When stocks were going south a couple years ago, I brought up the subject of this company's quarterly report because I was surprised they had a profitable quarter (I was expecting a loss for the quarter). This actually got her upset, and I said something to the effect of "that's why the company's in business, too make a profit." She responded "yeah, but they don't have to make so much!" Really? Seriously? I would think as an employee you would want your company to do well, because then when you are negotiating salaries you can reasonably expect more than if your company is going bankrupt lol. I dunno, that's one of those cases were I find it's best to keep quiet because it isn't worth arguing with family over. It's not like I could convince any of them otherwise anyway, so all it would do is create hard feelings in the long run. In California the state employees unions and teachers unions have their lawyers and union officials who represent them in collective bargaining with the Governor each year. And during the last decade these unions have not conceded or relented on anything and are now being blamed for being too greedy or too out of touch with the state budget woes. So this could be why there is now some who think the state unions right to negotiate should be eliminated but that is going to be a tough fight as we see in Wisconsin. But it may just be reality when states go bankrupt and don't pay for health care or for penions....Brown has mentioned this several times lately out here but has yet to sit down with anyone in the state or teacher unions to work our some compromise..
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 20, 2011 10:44:32 GMT -5
I was a union member for 32 years. My union negotiated a tuition package that allowed me to go back to college (on my own time after work) and complete my degree. Thanks to my union, I was not fired just prior to being eligible to retire. When times were tough, the union gave up a cola in order to preserve jobs. I'm now retired with an adequate, if not generous, pension. I do have healthcare (and contribute to the premium), thanks to the same union.
what municipality did you work for?
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 20, 2011 10:45:39 GMT -5
I've got a lot of relatives who either were or currently are in the UAW,
is that a public sector union now?
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 20, 2011 10:51:13 GMT -5
i'm all for an "office workers" union. maybe that way, i won't have to have a contracting company between me and my money, like desktop support has denigrated into.
but you see, i'm not asking the taxpayers to fund it.
although this thread may not be about only public sector unions, that what the current hot button issue is.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 20, 2011 10:52:19 GMT -5
But in Wisconsin you have three parties involved in this dilemma:
1. Governor Walker a Republican
2. State Legislators who are have a Republican Majority, and Democratic Minority
3...State Workers Unions
1, Governor Walker wants to have the state workers contribute to their health care and pensions, and eliminate collective bargaining/
2. The Dems will not go along with the governor will agree to the state workers contributing to their health care and pensions but not to eliminate collective bargaining
3....State Workers Unions Will not agree to anything but just want to protest ad infinetum....
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skweet
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Post by skweet on Feb 20, 2011 10:54:37 GMT -5
I don't get why we should distinquish between public and private unions. They are both input costs to everything we purchase. Private unions add to the cost of production of a product or service, public unions add to the taxes that are paid on the company's profit or at the register in a sales tax. Everything we do that costs money, costs more because of union control. If life costs you $20k per year, then a piece of that goes to funding strong unions. I was not trying to switch opinion for those that are pro, simi-pro, or anti union. I was just curious how much value you place on union particpation. GG you are willing to pay more, if you find union products. How much more?
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 20, 2011 10:57:19 GMT -5
My point, the taxpayers are funding private employees in a round about way as well. Since it changes hands between middle men, you don't see it so instead we garner a lot of anger directly at public employees. How about this? How about the legislators propose cutting themselves FIRST as the leaders and go from the top down? They want to cut where it would do the most good in most states and that is the state workers salaries, pensions, and health care costs. Elected officials are able to grant themselves raises and perks behind closed doors and the public is not aware of their salaries or other benefits...but Brown in CA is trying to change that with some success so far...and not sure about other states in this area??
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 20, 2011 11:21:00 GMT -5
Unions improve the lives of my fellow citizens. Not quite...Unions improve the lives of union members - at the cost of everyone else. And Public unions are worse because they forcibly TAKE people's money whereas a private company with a union would need to find ways to EARN the money needed for the contracts. Someone who is retired, or on a fixed income, or who didn't get an annual raise did not get their life improved by having another $100+ taken from them via their property taxes now did they??? This is why I feel so many pro-public-union types are so ignorant on the subject - they don't seem to be able to comprehend WHERE that money comes from to pay those increasing public union contracts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2011 11:32:38 GMT -5
Yeah... teachers rarely ever EARN their money...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 20, 2011 11:35:40 GMT -5
Unions improve the lives of my fellow citizens. Not quite...Unions improve the lives of union members - at the cost of everyone else. And Public unions are worse because they forcibly TAKE people's money whereas a private company with a union would need to find ways to EARN the money needed for the contracts. Someone who is retired, or on a fixed income, or who didn't get an annual raise did not get their life improved by having another $100+ taken from them via their property taxes now did they??? This is why I feel so many pro-public-union types are so ignorant on the subject - they don't seem to be able to comprehend WHERE that money comes from to pay those increasing public union contracts. MINE, MINE, MINE, FUCK YOU, MINE, MINE, MINE. I know where it comes from and I am okay with it.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Feb 20, 2011 11:53:36 GMT -5
Unions in 1860 = great, Unions now= horrible. This is all due to greed and corruption from humans. Great ideal, bad implementation.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 20, 2011 11:57:39 GMT -5
Unions improve the lives of my fellow citizens. Not quite...Unions improve the lives of union members - at the cost of everyone else. And Public unions are worse because they forcibly TAKE people's money whereas a private company with a union would need to find ways to EARN the money needed for the contracts. Someone who is retired, or on a fixed income, or who didn't get an annual raise did not get their life improved by having another $100+ taken from them via their property taxes now did they??? This is why I feel so many pro-public-union types are so ignorant on the subject - they don't seem to be able to comprehend WHERE that money comes from to pay those increasing public union contracts. Um, I DO know where the money comes from and I'm not ignorant. Unions improve the lives of union members - at the cost of everyone else.I take particular exception to this statement. The 5 day workweek? It's the norm - not only for union members. An 8 hr workday? Again, the norm. Lots of companies NOW offer 401Ks, although my union had to bargain that one for me. As union membership declines, so does the middle class, but a lot of folks are too ignorant to recognize it.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 20, 2011 12:22:17 GMT -5
or some reason, it is OK for others to want to earn more money, have money to raise their families, send their kids to college, etc. For TEACHERS that is BAD. They are supposed to take a vow of poverty, be missionairies and fall on their sword.
LOL, Snerdley, <<<karma>>>
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Post by rocketman on Feb 20, 2011 12:51:46 GMT -5
This quote by FDR says it all concerning public employee unions:
"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations.
Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees.
A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. "
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 20, 2011 13:42:58 GMT -5
I don't get why we should distinquish between public and private unions.
imho, private sector unions are needed for safety concerns, compensation(paychecks) concerns, working hours concerns, etc.
the private sector has proven it will take advantage of it's labor force, if it can.
however, what where govt jobs like before govt unions?
dangerous, under paid, long hour sweatshops?
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