Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 15:01:46 GMT -5
This was in Copenhagen so public transportation was pretty good. Overall, the Danes seemed very happy. I know many New Yorkers(NYC) that don't own cars because keeping a car in a big city like that is very expensive. Especially the car insurance and parking costs. Gotcha. I like having my car so I'm not a person that would choose to live in NYC, either NYC is a liberal, socialist hell hole, so it is almost like living in Norway.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 15:12:17 GMT -5
Gotcha. I like having my car so I'm not a person that would choose to live in NYC, either NYC is a liberal, socialist hell hole, so it is almost like living in Norway. Lol! I've already been called an asshole once in this thread so I thought I would be PC with my post...but pretty much "yeah that" :-p
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Nov 11, 2013 15:57:31 GMT -5
If everything is so much better somewhere else, why do so many people still want to come here? What sort of question is that? Why are there so many Americans living as expats in different parts of the world? I premuse it is beause individual people have different decision-making criteria? These sorts of knee-jerk defensive responses to anyone suggesting that another country might have a good idea are pointless. Did someone say that "everything" is "so much better" somewhere else?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 16:35:04 GMT -5
Ava, should you happen to lurk while taking your hiatus, try to understand that the U.S. is not an old, compact country like most of Europe. The population of Norway is about 5.1 million (2012), and the population of Alabama is 4.8 (2012). Alabama isn't a particularly populous state at that.
The scale of the idea is too large, and the population too diverse. There was an article linked on Facebook the other day that divides the U.S. into eleven distinct "nations" of basically homogenous people. The Deep South, with its distrust of the central government and strong belief in states' rights, would have a different perspective on this from those who settled Pennsylvania and Ohio (ironically Scandinavian and Germanic as well as English). Those who scrabbled an existence during the Westward expansion are very independent and believe in taking care of yourself and your family first.
Scandinavia, however, consists of small countries. That article you linked talked about "coziness" as a national attribute, an offshoot of the fact that they got little daylight in winter and had to huddle together to keep warm. Huddling isn't really an American characteristic. Most of us like some space.
So while there is nothing wrong with the idea, everyone was telling you how it wouldn't work for the U.S. And as they told you, they were reflecting aspects of our national identity. We believe in taking care of yourself. If you don't work, you don't eat (a very basic concept to the founding of America). If you work hard enough, you will succeed. These are our national philosophies.
Nothing was meant to be personal. Something that I am thinking you need to remember is that there are two "you's" in English. One of them means you, Ava. The other one means people in general. It is very hard sometimes to differentiate between the two of them because they are spelled exactly the same.
I think you took some of the you's that were meant to be generic too personally.
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zibazinski
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Norway
Nov 11, 2013 16:38:36 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Nov 11, 2013 16:38:36 GMT -5
Wasn't it the king of Denmark who recently mentioned his country couldn't do cradle to grave welfare anymore? Simply can't afford it? Wonder if they still behead rulers who say what the masses don't wish to hear?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Nov 11, 2013 17:21:57 GMT -5
What sort of question is that? Why are there so many Americans living as expats in different parts of the world? I premuse it is beause individual people have different decision-making criteria? These sorts of knee-jerk defensive responses to anyone suggesting that another country might have a good idea are pointless. Did someone say that "everything" is "so much better" somewhere else? I think the sentiment is for people who either came to live and be a member of a country or worse don't even live in the country, why? The assumption is that you chose where to live, and it's a bit baffling to me, to come to a very capitalistic country and suggest that they follow in the footsteps of one of the most socialist countries. I would say the same thing about an American ex pat lobbying their new country of residence for change. To me it's like those people who buy or build houses next to airports, then complain about the noise... So if you choose where to live you are not allowed to think any other country ever has a better way of doing any single thing? That is ridiculous. I also choose to work at my company, it doesn't mean I can't suggest that some processes be improved. I choose to live with my boyfriend and I sure as hell try to improve him! Again, to me it comes off as a ridiculous hyper-defensiveness. Honestly, the "oh yeah, well if it's so great then why don't you go live there" responses are very schoolyard and serve no purpose. And why shouldn't anyone be able to lobby for what they see as an improvement anywhere they see fit?
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zibazinski
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Norway
Nov 11, 2013 17:23:36 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Nov 11, 2013 17:23:36 GMT -5
Well, that's what some posters get when they complain about the way the country is headed. But I guess it all depends on who is posting, huh?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Nov 11, 2013 17:29:42 GMT -5
Well, that's what some posters get when they complain about the way the country is headed. But I guess it all depends on who is posting, huh? LOL. I'm not sure specifically what you are referring t, but I'd wager there is a different response to a comment that comes off as "this country does X and it seems like a great idea. Do you think we could try that?" than to a comment that comes off more like "fuck the poor, let them starve in the street, and oh btw we should impeach that kenyan socialist". No?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Nov 11, 2013 17:37:57 GMT -5
So if you choose where to live you are not allowed to think any other country ever has a better way of doing any single thing? That is ridiculous. I also choose to work at my company, it doesn't mean I can't suggest that some processes be improved. I choose to live with my boyfriend and I sure as hell try to improve him! Again, to me it comes off as a ridiculous hyper-defensiveness. Honestly, the "oh yeah, well if it's so great then why don't you go live there" responses are very schoolyard and serve no purpose. And why shouldn't anyone be able to lobby for what they see as an improvement anywhere they see fit? So do you suggest to your employer that they start modeling the competition because they are better? Or how about trying to change your current boyfriend by saying your ex was so much better? I think it's the scope and degree of the suggestion that tends to rankle people. I personally do find it a bit ridiculous to suggest that one of the most capitalistic societies model one of the most socialist. And there's that whole... but umm... you came here knowing what this country was all about. Do you think my company is so stupid they wouldn't be modeling the competition if the competition was in fact better? And if the competition IS better and other companies don't take notice, do you think that serves them well long-term? Do you think it would make more sense for my company to refuse to acknowledge that another company did something better, and just stick its head in the sand or respond to detractors with "oh yeah, well if it's so good, why don't you go buy your stuff there instead"? I also very much doubt that people move to a country fully informed of the entirety of the tax code and every social program. Should they have to believe every single US policy could not be improved upon in any way before being allowed to live here? (If so, I'm going to get deported!) She's paying taxes, she's working legally. I seriously don't understand the anger and defensiveness.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Nov 11, 2013 17:51:40 GMT -5
To get back to the OP - No, I don't want to live in a socialist(ic) country. That said, I think the US has huge problems with: maternity leave, mental health/sick leave, and health care. We could take a few notes from most of the rest of the world in these areas, and still be left with 50% of our own money. Honeybbq, I think you could find that you really don't want to get what you wish for. I'm not claiming to be an expert. I can only tell you what I observed about the British style of national health care. The care is adequate. But what we are used to is lavish, by comparison. So, maybe we do get what we pay for. While visiting Northern Ireland, my Mom fell, hit her head and split open her cheek. Causing a concussion and an injury that required close to 20 stiches to close. Mom was transported to the regional hospital for care. On what would typically be a busy Friday evening, we found that the emergency room of the hospital serving about a 20 mile radius just outside Belfast was staffed by a single Doctor and a couple of nurses. Mom got priority treatment because of the head injury. During the time we waited for Mom to be treated, I chatted with a fellow who had brought in a daughter with a broken leg. She had been at the emergency room for eight hours, and had not been treated yet, because of the steady flow of more critical cases and the lack of resources to treat a non-critical patient. About five hours after arriving at the emergency room, Mom was admitted to the hospital for overnight observation. The hospital did not have private or double rooms. Patients were treated in wards, which housed between 15 and 20 people. It was abut 1:00 AM when they checked Mom into the hospital. Could you imagine being one of the 15 or so people trying to sleep in a ward where they are getting people settled in all night long, with the associated noise, lights, and the like? I think that Mom got the last bed available. I was under the imprssion that, at midnight, they moved another patient they didn't have to monitor as closely in order to make room for Mom. The ward appeared to be staffed with one nurse to care for all 15 - 20 patients. The ward was strictly utilitarian from a medical care perspective, with no creature comforts. No curtains separating beds, no TV, no phone. The only phones available for patient use were a couple of pay phones at the edge of the hospital lobby area. While visiting Ireland, we visited a cousin of my MIL, who was getting on in years. Cousin Kathleen's Doctor had diagnosed her with bad cataracts in one eye. She was put on the list of citizens needing cataract surgery. After three years of waiting, Kathleen made it to the top of the list for catract surgery. By that time, she had catracts in her other eye, to the point that she was virtually blind. Cataract surgery was done on the first eye, and Kathleen was put on the list of citizens needing catract surgery for the second eye. Cousin Kathleen died while waiting for cataract surgery on the second eye. She'd spent at least the last five years of her life trying to cope with vision problems that would have been corrected in a matter of weeks, under our medical care system. Kind of like the old saying. "You can have good and you can have cheap. You just can't have both of them at the same time." So when you compare the cost of medical care between countries, you might ask yourself if the lower cost reflects the level of services provided? And whether, as a paticipant in that medical system, you would have access to the medical treatment you need, when you need it, or if you will go on a list.
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Baby Fawkes
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Post by Baby Fawkes on Nov 11, 2013 17:54:02 GMT -5
So if you choose where to live you are not allowed to think any other country ever has a better way of doing any single thing? That is ridiculous. I also choose to work at my company, it doesn't mean I can't suggest that some processes be improved. I choose to live with my boyfriend and I sure as hell try to improve him! Again, to me it comes off as a ridiculous hyper-defensiveness. Honestly, the "oh yeah, well if it's so great then why don't you go live there" responses are very schoolyard and serve no purpose. And why shouldn't anyone be able to lobby for what they see as an improvement anywhere they see fit? So do you suggest to your employer that they start modeling the competition because they are better? Or how about trying to change your current boyfriend by saying your ex was so much better? I think it's the scope and degree of the suggestion that tends to rankle people. I personally do find it a bit ridiculous to suggest that one of the most capitalistic societies model one of the most socialist. And there's that whole... but umm... you came here knowing what this country was all about. I guess it's just a matter of perception, but I didn't take the OP's comments as suggesting the US should model itself on Norway. It read to me like she was pointing out her understanding of how it working and trying to spark a debate about what the good and bad points are. It seemed that the thread took a rather quick turn to suggesting that Ava was wrong to bring it up because she isn't a US citizen (and that her professor was wrong for what he did), which seemed more like a tangential point to the original question(s) posed.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 11, 2013 18:47:38 GMT -5
To get back to the OP - No, I don't want to live in a socialist(ic) country. That said, I think the US has huge problems with: maternity leave, mental health/sick leave, and health care. We could take a few notes from most of the rest of the world in these areas, and still be left with 50% of our own money. Honeybbq, I think you could find that you really don't want to get what you wish for. I'm not claiming to be an expert. I can only tell you what I observed about the British style of national health care. The care is adequate. But what we are used to is lavish, by comparison. So, maybe we do get what we pay for. While visiting Northern Ireland, my Mom fell, hit her head and split open her cheek. Causing a concussion and an injury that required close to 20 stiches to close. Mom was transported to the regional hospital for care. On what would typically be a busy Friday evening, we found that the emergency room of the hospital serving about a 20 mile radius just outside Belfast was staffed by a single Doctor and a couple of nurses. Mom got priority treatment because of the head injury. During the time we waited for Mom to be treated, I chatted with a fellow who had brought in a daughter with a broken leg. She had been at the emergency room for eight hours, and had not been treated yet, because of the steady flow of more critical cases and the lack of resources to treat a non-critical patient. About five hours after arriving at the emergency room, Mom was admitted to the hospital for overnight observation. The hospital did not have private or double rooms. Patients were treated in wards, which housed between 15 and 20 people. It was abut 1:00 AM when they checked Mom into the hospital. Could you imagine being one of the 15 or so people trying to sleep in a ward where they are getting people settled in all night long, with the associated noise, lights, and the like? I think that Mom got the last bed available. I was under the imprssion that, at midnight, they moved another patient they didn't have to monitor as closely in order to make room for Mom. The ward appeared to be staffed with one nurse to care for all 15 - 20 patients. The ward was strictly utilitarian from a medical care perspective, with no creature comforts. No curtains separating beds, no TV, no phone. The only phones available for patient use were a couple of pay phones at the edge of the hospital lobby area. While visiting Ireland, we visited a cousin of my MIL, who was getting on in years. Cousin Kathleen's Doctor had diagnosed her with bad cataracts in one eye. She was put on the list of citizens needing cataract surgery. After three years of waiting, Kathleen made it to the top of the list for catract surgery. By that time, she had catracts in her other eye, to the point that she was virtually blind. Cataract surgery was done on the first eye, and Kathleen was put on the list of citizens needing catract surgery for the second eye. Cousin Kathleen died while waiting for cataract surgery on the second eye. She'd spent at least the last five years of her life trying to cope with vision problems that would have been corrected in a matter of weeks, under our medical care system. Kind of like the old saying. "You can have good and you can have cheap. You just can't have both of them at the same time." So when you compare the cost of medical care between countries, you might ask yourself if the lower cost reflects the level of services provided? And whether, as a paticipant in that medical system, you would have access to the medical treatment you need, when you need it, or if you will go on a list. Meh, I said take a few notes. Not change to completely socialized medicine. I work in health care. I know who makes the money and who suffers. I would rather have a safer and healthier society with a minimum universal healthcare. I still think $$ options should be available to those who can afford it. But I don't think people with no money should go without. I especially think those people who are mentally ill need more help than our society provides. A lot of random violence happens because people don't get the mental healthcare they need. I'd pay another 2-3% in taxes if I knew our country would be a safer place and people would be healthier. "They" claim Obamacare will actually save money by providing minimum health services to people. I know from my work experience this is true. If you get a pap smear every two years - you can diagnose cervical cancer when it is tiny. You get a LEEP and you are on your way. If you wait 20 years - you need PET scans for staging, you need chemo, you need 8-10 weeks of radiation therapy, and then you'll die anyways. And you're indigent anyways, so tax payers pay for your care anyhow. Easier, cheaper, quicker to do a little in the beginning than a lot in the end. If we're sharing anecdotal stories - I had to go to the ER in Australia. I got my own room, attended to right away, excellent care, the whole nine yards. I was discharged about 12 hours later with some medication in hand. They charged me $50 because they didn't know what to do with me. **edit** They charged me $50 AUD, which at the time, was approximately equivalent to $25 USD LOL!!!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 19:39:02 GMT -5
So do you suggest to your employer that they start modeling the competition because they are better? Or how about trying to change your current boyfriend by saying your ex was so much better? I think it's the scope and degree of the suggestion that tends to rankle people. I personally do find it a bit ridiculous to suggest that one of the most capitalistic societies model one of the most socialist. And there's that whole... but umm... you came here knowing what this country was all about. I guess it's just a matter of perception, but I didn't take the OP's comments as suggesting the US should model itself on Norway. It read to me like she was pointing out her understanding of how it working and trying to spark a debate about what the good and bad points are. It seemed that the thread took a rather quick turn to suggesting that Ava was wrong to bring it up because she isn't a US citizen (and that her professor was wrong for what he did), which seemed more like a tangential point to the original question(s) posed. I was the first one to bring up her citizenship and it had nothing to do with her posing the question about Norway. It had everything to do with her saying "is that fair" to the fact that she couldn't afford health care I our country ( before she was a citizen).
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Baby Fawkes
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Nov 11, 2013 19:50:30 GMT -5
Post by Baby Fawkes on Nov 11, 2013 19:50:30 GMT -5
In terms of the "is that fair" comment, I agree with you. It's the way it currently is in the US and everyone, regardless of citizenship, has the same issue.
I made my original comment just because I don't think that citizenship should have any difference on it though. I think legal residence and contribution should be the requirement and that citizenship should not be a differentiating factor for healthcare/insurance related concerns. Admittedly, my original comment was in reference to @bunnysmom and I misunderstood her comments, but citizenship definitely shouldn't be a requirement for equal access to whatever the healthcare options are in the country.
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Miss Tequila
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Nov 11, 2013 20:41:38 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 20:41:38 GMT -5
In terms of the "is that fair" comment, I agree with you. It's the way it currently is in the US and everyone, regardless of citizenship, has the same issue. I made my original comment just because I don't think that citizenship should have any difference on it though. I think legal residence and contribution should be the requirement and that citizenship should not be a differentiating factor for healthcare/insurance related concerns. Admittedly, my original comment was in reference to @bunnysmom and I misunderstood her comments, but citizenship definitely shouldn't be a requirement for equal access to whatever the healthcare options are in the country. See...so I'm not an asshole after all :-p
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 11, 2013 22:22:48 GMT -5
My sister lived in Norway - it was, by FAR their most modest accommodations. It is true that there wasn't as large of a difference between the lifestyles of the poor and the lifestyles of the rich as there is in the grand ol' USA. That is a fantastic deal if you are poor. But, for my sister...it was a severe downgrade from her life in the states.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 12, 2013 5:58:18 GMT -5
I think the sentiment is for people who either came to live and be a member of a country or worse don't even live in the country, why? The assumption is that you chose where to live, and it's a bit baffling to me, to come to a very capitalistic country and suggest that they follow in the footsteps of one of the most socialist countries. I would say the same thing about an American ex pat lobbying their new country of residence for change. To me it's like those people who buy or build houses next to airports, then complain about the noise... So if you choose where to live you are not allowed to think any other country ever has a better way of doing any single thing? That is ridiculous. I also choose to work at my company, it doesn't mean I can't suggest that some processes be improved. I choose to live with my boyfriend and I sure as hell try to improve him! Again, to me it comes off as a ridiculous hyper-defensiveness. Honestly, the "oh yeah, well if it's so great then why don't you go live there" responses are very schoolyard and serve no purpose. And why shouldn't anyone be able to lobby for what they see as an improvement anywhere they see fit? I can't speak for anyone else, but I had no issue with the question she posed. I would absolutely not want to live in a country with social policies like Norway but that is just me. What irritated me was the "is it fair" that I come to your country, can't make ends meat and can't afford health insurance (but she could afford trips back home-I fly to South America regularly, trust me the airfare would pay for health insurance). I am not angry at Ava but I am angry at our system. If a person can of afford to support themselves, I do not understand why we are allowing them in. The fact that she came here legally is great, but why don't we have standards in place in the first place? I am pretty sure we have a boatload of people that can work unskilled labor and have no health insurance, to we really need to import more? Again, I would never have brought it up is she didn't complain a out inability to get a job or afford health care. That is what bothered me, not her asking if we can get some ideas from Norway. And yeah, yeah, I've already been called an asshole earlier and I'm fine with that ;-)
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thyme4change
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Nov 12, 2013 9:05:48 GMT -5
Post by thyme4change on Nov 12, 2013 9:05:48 GMT -5
Bad idea.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Nov 12, 2013 9:35:15 GMT -5
So if you choose where to live you are not allowed to think any other country ever has a better way of doing any single thing? That is ridiculous. I also choose to work at my company, it doesn't mean I can't suggest that some processes be improved. I choose to live with my boyfriend and I sure as hell try to improve him! Again, to me it comes off as a ridiculous hyper-defensiveness. Honestly, the "oh yeah, well if it's so great then why don't you go live there" responses are very schoolyard and serve no purpose. And why shouldn't anyone be able to lobby for what they see as an improvement anywhere they see fit? I can't speak for anyone else, but I had no issue with the question she posed. I would absolutely not want to live in a country with social policies like Norway but that is just me. What irritated me was the "is it fair" that I come to your country, can't make ends meat and can't afford health insurance (but she could afford trips back home-I fly to South America regularly, trust me the airfare would pay for health insurance). I am not angry at Ava but I am angry at our system. If a person can of afford to support themselves, I do not understand why we are allowing them in. The fact that she came here legally is great, but why don't we have standards in place in the first place? I am pretty sure we have a boatload of people that can work unskilled labor and have no health insurance, to we really need to import more? Again, I would never have brought it up is she didn't complain a out inability to get a job or afford health care. That is what bothered me, not her asking if we can get some ideas from Norway. And yeah, yeah, I've already been called an asshole earlier and I'm fine with that ;-) I don't think she complained she couldn't get a job. She said she was working two jobs and couldn't afford healthcare. I think the basis of the "how is that fair" comment is the same as many of the rest of the working poor who want to know why healthcare is so expensive in this country that you can be working two minimum wage jobs and still find that decent healthcare is unaffordable to you. My point was that comments like "if the US is so awful, why don't you go back to where you came from" are dumb and serve no purpose in a reasonable conversation about what would be a good healthcare system.
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imawino
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Nov 12, 2013 9:36:45 GMT -5
Post by imawino on Nov 12, 2013 9:36:45 GMT -5
Awwwww. It was a joke. Which isn't to say I don't tell him to pick his shit up off the floor, and I am waging a protest against his fondness for No Shave November.
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thyme4change
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Nov 12, 2013 9:37:55 GMT -5
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 12, 2013 9:37:55 GMT -5
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Nov 12, 2013 9:41:11 GMT -5
Do you think my company is so stupid they wouldn't be modeling the competition if the competition was in fact better? And if the competition IS better and other companies don't take notice, do you think that serves them well long-term? Do you think it would make more sense for my company to refuse to acknowledge that another company did something better, and just stick its head in the sand or respond to detractors with "oh yeah, well if it's so good, why don't you go buy your stuff there instead"? I also very much doubt that people move to a country fully informed of the entirety of the tax code and every social program. Should they have to believe every single US policy could not be improved upon in any way before being allowed to live here? (If so, I'm going to get deported!) She's paying taxes, she's working legally. I seriously don't understand the anger and defensiveness. Nor do I understand yours You didn't answer the question about your boyfriend. Did you really respond to my legitimate questions with requests for more details about my love life? I had to assume you were kidding. But if you're not, I'll tell you I'm not shy about telling him that I would prefer if his tongue go up and down rather than side to side. But really, he's no amateur - he knows circles are the best.
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dannylion
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Nov 12, 2013 9:46:35 GMT -5
Post by dannylion on Nov 12, 2013 9:46:35 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone else, but I had no issue with the question she posed. I would absolutely not want to live in a country with social policies like Norway but that is just me. What irritated me was the "is it fair" that I come to your country, can't make ends meat and can't afford health insurance (but she could afford trips back home-I fly to South America regularly, trust me the airfare would pay for health insurance). I am not angry at Ava but I am angry at our system. If a person can of afford to support themselves, I do not understand why we are allowing them in. The fact that she came here legally is great, but why don't we have standards in place in the first place? I am pretty sure we have a boatload of people that can work unskilled labor and have no health insurance, to we really need to import more? Again, I would never have brought it up is she didn't complain a out inability to get a job or afford health care. That is what bothered me, not her asking if we can get some ideas from Norway. And yeah, yeah, I've already been called an asshole earlier and I'm fine with that ;-) I don't think she complained she couldn't get a job. She said she was working two jobs and couldn't afford healthcare. I think the basis of the "how is that fair" comment is the same as many of the rest of the working poor who want to know why healthcare is so expensive in this country that you can be working two minimum wage jobs and still find that decent healthcare is unaffordable to you. My point was that comments like "if the US is so awful, why don't you go back to where you came from" are dumb and serve no purpose in a reasonable conversation about what would be a good healthcare system. Just to be clear since the comment that seems to have set you off was mine, what I said was: If everything is so much better somewhere else, why do so many people still want to come here? I said nothing about anyone going back where they came from. I was simply commenting on the fact that so many people seeking a better life choose to come here as opposed to, say, Norway. I defy you to show me where I suggested Ava or anyone else should "go back where they came from." Please feel free to hate me or think I'm dumb or an asshole or a space alien or whatever reason you decide I require hating. I certainly don't care. All I ask is that you hate me for the right reason. Please do not twist my words to fit some agenda of your own.
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 16:31:12 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Norway
Nov 12, 2013 9:47:16 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 9:47:16 GMT -5
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door. I think they put a banner over that passage: "Fuggetaboutit."
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 16:31:12 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Norway
Nov 12, 2013 9:49:24 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 9:49:24 GMT -5
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.to verify their credentials before opening the gate!
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imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
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Norway
Nov 12, 2013 9:58:13 GMT -5
Post by imawino on Nov 12, 2013 9:58:13 GMT -5
I don't think she complained she couldn't get a job. She said she was working two jobs and couldn't afford healthcare. I think the basis of the "how is that fair" comment is the same as many of the rest of the working poor who want to know why healthcare is so expensive in this country that you can be working two minimum wage jobs and still find that decent healthcare is unaffordable to you. My point was that comments like "if the US is so awful, why don't you go back to where you came from" are dumb and serve no purpose in a reasonable conversation about what would be a good healthcare system. Just to be clear since the comment that seems to have set you off was mine, what I said was: If everything is so much better somewhere else, why do so many people still want to come here? I said nothing about anyone going back where they came from. I was simply commenting on the fact that so many people seeking a better life choose to come here as opposed to, say, Norway. I defy you to show me where I suggested Ava or anyone else should "go back where they came from." Please feel free to hate me or think I'm dumb or an asshole or a space alien or whatever reason you decide I require hating. I certainly don't care. All I ask is that you hate me for the right reason. Please do not twist my words to fit some agenda of your own. I know what you said. I quoted you and asked you a question in return. I never claimed you told her to go home. I do believe other people questioned why she didn't go back home, but I never attributed that to you. Do you see that somewhere?? However, I do believe that comments like "if it's so great elsewhere, why do people come here" and "if you think it's so bad here, you should go back where you came from" are equivalently pointless and overly defensive. Suggesting that one of the US's policies could be improved upon is not saying "the US sucks". ETA: I don't have an agenda and I did not twist your words in the slightest. I specifically asked you about your exact quote. Why is it that you perceived her as saying that "everything" is "so much better" elsewhere? And why do Americans sometimes choose to move to other countries?
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imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
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Norway
Nov 12, 2013 10:22:38 GMT -5
Post by imawino on Nov 12, 2013 10:22:38 GMT -5
Did you really respond to my legitimate questions with requests for more details about my love life? I had to assume you were kidding. But if you're not, I'll tell you I'm not shy about telling him that I would prefer if his tongue go up and down rather than side to side. But really, he's no amateur - he knows circles are the best. Umm... can't say I was going for details on your love life. You weren't? But you for some reason asked me about that again, while ignoring my questions about why you thought it would be a good business plan for my company to completely ignore ways the competition might be doing things better. I guess you can understand my confusion then.
But I guess good for you that he's trainable More to the fact that you brought up the fact that you chose your boyfriend and want to change him. I simply asked if it was a good method to compare him to your ex in order to accomplish that. I actually brought up business first, then made a joke about my boyfriend with the little jokey-face accompanying it and everything. Back to the topic at hand (if I can manage that without the brain bleach . You seem to be very obtuse regarding the points that are being made about the approach of Ava in regards to improvements of the US. Nobody has said that conversations and looking at other examples are bad, they are saying that the degree and the perspective from which Ava approached it was odd. Yes, it's unfortunate that I am so stupid. I guess the US public school system failed me? Maybe one day I will learn to understand why what Ava said was so odd and upsetting. Fingers crossed!
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dannylion
Junior Associate
Gravity is a harsh mistress
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 12:17:52 GMT -5
Posts: 5,212
Location: Miles over the madness horizon and accelerating
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Norway
Nov 12, 2013 11:16:14 GMT -5
Post by dannylion on Nov 12, 2013 11:16:14 GMT -5
Just to be clear since the comment that seems to have set you off was mine, what I said was: If everything is so much better somewhere else, why do so many people still want to come here? I said nothing about anyone going back where they came from. I was simply commenting on the fact that so many people seeking a better life choose to come here as opposed to, say, Norway. I defy you to show me where I suggested Ava or anyone else should "go back where they came from." Please feel free to hate me or think I'm dumb or an asshole or a space alien or whatever reason you decide I require hating. I certainly don't care. All I ask is that you hate me for the right reason. Please do not twist my words to fit some agenda of your own. I know what you said. I quoted you and asked you a question in return. I never claimed you told her to go home. I do believe other people questioned why she didn't go back home, but I never attributed that to you. Do you see that somewhere?? However, I do believe that comments like "if it's so great elsewhere, why do people come here" and "if you think it's so bad here, you should go back where you came from" are equivalently pointless and overly defensive. Suggesting that one of the US's policies could be improved upon is not saying "the US sucks". ETA: I don't have an agenda and I did not twist your words in the slightest. I specifically asked you about your exact quote. Why is it that you perceived her as saying that "everything" is "so much better" elsewhere? And why do Americans sometimes choose to move to other countries? Well bless your heart. You seem very angry. I really don't think you are looking for a response but rather just another opportunity to spew venom. I think I will just heed Ms. Hax's advice and simply refuse to engage further someone who seems so determined to seek offense where none was offered or intended.
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tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
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Norway
Nov 12, 2013 11:55:06 GMT -5
Post by tskeeter on Nov 12, 2013 11:55:06 GMT -5
Honeybbq, I think you could find that you really don't want to get what you wish for. I'm not claiming to be an expert. I can only tell you what I observed about the British style of national health care. The care is adequate. But what we are used to is lavish, by comparison. So, maybe we do get what we pay for. While visiting Northern Ireland, my Mom fell, hit her head and split open her cheek. Causing a concussion and an injury that required close to 20 stiches to close. Mom was transported to the regional hospital for care. On what would typically be a busy Friday evening, we found that the emergency room of the hospital serving about a 20 mile radius just outside Belfast was staffed by a single Doctor and a couple of nurses. Mom got priority treatment because of the head injury. During the time we waited for Mom to be treated, I chatted with a fellow who had brought in a daughter with a broken leg. She had been at the emergency room for eight hours, and had not been treated yet, because of the steady flow of more critical cases and the lack of resources to treat a non-critical patient. About five hours after arriving at the emergency room, Mom was admitted to the hospital for overnight observation. The hospital did not have private or double rooms. Patients were treated in wards, which housed between 15 and 20 people. It was abut 1:00 AM when they checked Mom into the hospital. Could you imagine being one of the 15 or so people trying to sleep in a ward where they are getting people settled in all night long, with the associated noise, lights, and the like? I think that Mom got the last bed available. I was under the imprssion that, at midnight, they moved another patient they didn't have to monitor as closely in order to make room for Mom. The ward appeared to be staffed with one nurse to care for all 15 - 20 patients. The ward was strictly utilitarian from a medical care perspective, with no creature comforts. No curtains separating beds, no TV, no phone. The only phones available for patient use were a couple of pay phones at the edge of the hospital lobby area. While visiting Ireland, we visited a cousin of my MIL, who was getting on in years. Cousin Kathleen's Doctor had diagnosed her with bad cataracts in one eye. She was put on the list of citizens needing cataract surgery. After three years of waiting, Kathleen made it to the top of the list for catract surgery. By that time, she had catracts in her other eye, to the point that she was virtually blind. Cataract surgery was done on the first eye, and Kathleen was put on the list of citizens needing catract surgery for the second eye. Cousin Kathleen died while waiting for cataract surgery on the second eye. She'd spent at least the last five years of her life trying to cope with vision problems that would have been corrected in a matter of weeks, under our medical care system. Kind of like the old saying. "You can have good and you can have cheap. You just can't have both of them at the same time." So when you compare the cost of medical care between countries, you might ask yourself if the lower cost reflects the level of services provided? And whether, as a paticipant in that medical system, you would have access to the medical treatment you need, when you need it, or if you will go on a list. Meh, I said take a few notes. Not change to completely socialized medicine. I work in health care. I know who makes the money and who suffers. I would rather have a safer and healthier society with a minimum universal healthcare. I still think $$ options should be available to those who can afford it. But I don't think people with no money should go without. I especially think those people who are mentally ill need more help than our society provides. A lot of random violence happens because people don't get the mental healthcare they need. I'd pay another 2-3% in taxes if I knew our country would be a safer place and people would be healthier. "They" claim Obamacare will actually save money by providing minimum health services to people. I know from my work experience this is true. If you get a pap smear every two years - you can diagnose cervical cancer when it is tiny. You get a LEEP and you are on your way. If you wait 20 years - you need PET scans for staging, you need chemo, you need 8-10 weeks of radiation therapy, and then you'll die anyways. And you're indigent anyways, so tax payers pay for your care anyhow. Easier, cheaper, quicker to do a little in the beginning than a lot in the end. If we're sharing anecdotal stories - I had to go to the ER in Australia. I got my own room, attended to right away, excellent care, the whole nine yards. I was discharged about 12 hours later with some medication in hand. They charged me $50 because they didn't know what to do with me. **edit** They charged me $50 AUD, which at the time, was approximately equivalent to $25 USD LOL!!! Honeybbq, I agree with several of the point that you have made. And I'm glad that your experience with the AU emergency room appears to have been very good. Mom's was. too. The ER Doc who stiched up her face did a wonderful job. A year later, unless you knew exactly where to look, you'd never see the very minor scaring on her face that ran from below her eye, beneath the cheek bone, and nearly to her ear. But, as we look at the disparity in the cost of delivering medical services between countries, I don't think that we can just look at the cost per citizen and assume that, somehow, cheaper is better. We also need to understand how those services are delivered and determine if the cost we'd like to pay will provide the means of delivery we desire. And, it's the anecdotal evidence passed along by those who have had pretty close contact with other medical care delivery systems that help us understand what people in other countries receive for the price they pay.
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
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Norway
Nov 12, 2013 15:30:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 12, 2013 15:30:31 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone else, but I had no issue with the question she posed. I would absolutely not want to live in a country with social policies like Norway but that is just me. What irritated me was the "is it fair" that I come to your country, can't make ends meat and can't afford health insurance (but she could afford trips back home-I fly to South America regularly, trust me the airfare would pay for health insurance). I am not angry at Ava but I am angry at our system. If a person can of afford to support themselves, I do not understand why we are allowing them in. The fact that she came here legally is great, but why don't we have standards in place in the first place? I am pretty sure we have a boatload of people that can work unskilled labor and have no health insurance, to we really need to import more? Again, I would never have brought it up is she didn't complain a out inability to get a job or afford health care. That is what bothered me, not her asking if we can get some ideas from Norway. And yeah, yeah, I've already been called an asshole earlier and I'm fine with that ;-) I don't think she complained she couldn't get a job. She said she was working two jobs and couldn't afford healthcare. I think the basis of the "how is that fair" comment is the same as many of the rest of the working poor who want to know why healthcare is so expensive in this country that you can be working two minimum wage jobs and still find that decent healthcare is unaffordable to you. My point was that comments like "if the US is so awful, why don't you go back to where you came from" are dumb and serve no purpose in a reasonable conversation about what would be a good healthcare system. Her post wasn't about affordable healthcare, though. More of a "what can we learn from Norway" and then healthcare was brought up. From a practical standpoint, shouldn't someone do a little research on a country before they decide to move there? I was born here so I am stuck with what we have. I find it a little stupid for someone to move here and not understand how expensive healthcare is. It isn't like that doesn't make the news. There are lots of countries that offer universal healthcare, the US isn't one of them
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