Ava
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 18:27:05 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 9, 2013 18:27:05 GMT -5
This morning I had my Finance class. The professor is a very interesting guy who started his life in Nigeria, then went to Norway because he could study for free there, and then ended up living here in the good old U.S. This morning, because we had time, he talked about his experience in Norway. By his account it seems a very good society to be part of. There's universal healthcare, good public transportation systems, and free higher education. He said certain percentage of money is put aside by the government and then invested, and politicians cannot change that because it's written in the Constitution. He also said he can easily determine if someone has financial means here, but there he never knew who had money and who didn't, because they all lived in good apartments and took public transportation. Also, there is an array of services offered to all the citizens, and there isn't a big income inequality like we have here. Of course it's a small country with a small population, but I'm sure there are things we could learn from them. I like the idea of saving and investing and not allowing politicians to play with our money. I love the idea of universal healthcare and free higher education available for everybody. What do you know about Norway? What could we use here to improve our country?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 9, 2013 18:48:01 GMT -5
Because there is no incentive to make money. I can't begin to count the number of Scandinavians who have bailed from their home country and are now working in the US that I've run into. One guy told me that the government takes 70% of his income right off the top, he has absolutely NO intention on going back because the government takes such a large percentage.
If you think about it, if everyone has parity....that they live in the same areas, get the same healthcare, etc. why should someone work hard at getting educated, putting their money on the line for a dental practice (these were all dentists or scientists that I've had contact with), work their ass off only to receive exactly the same benefits as the bank clerk who works a 40 hour week with far less grief and risk?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 19:20:02 GMT -5
I am not making a joke, I promise. I thought a fairly large percentage of Scandinavian citizens were druggies. It is because of what Mich tried to describe. There is no incentive to be gainfully employed or to get ahead. I am reading a series of mysteries by Willow Rose set in Denmark. Admittedly, it is fiction, but I guess she knows her locale. One minor character only works because it is required for him to get his public aid. Another minor character who is killed gets subsidized housing, benefits, etc. because she is so obese that she has to have a social service health care person come to give her a bath. I'm not saying this is gospel truth based on what I read there and online, but I do think Scandinavia is much more socialistic than most Americans can accept. I don't think most Americans could thrive in that world. We are competitive, we believe hard work is rewarded, we believe in pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps (what are those, again?), and so on. I am not trying to be offensive, Ava; in fact, I am trying to be the opposite. But you are newly "American." That may appeal to you more than it does to most of us. I honestly can understand that.
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Ava
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 19:24:25 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 9, 2013 19:24:25 GMT -5
I understand your point of view. Personally, I have more than just financial goals. And I would love to have a safety net the size they have there. I'm not saying their society is perfect; nothing humans can create is perfect. I'm just saying bits and pieces of what works for other countries could be adapted here to make our lives better as members of a society. About the Gov. taking 70% of income; that's a lot. But I also think we pay one way or the other. The Gov. takes around 23% of my income, but then I pay taxes on everything I consume. I'm talking about basic stuff such as gas for my car, groceries for my meals, taxes on my little simple condo, and my winter electricity bill. It doesn't get to 70% but I can guess is easily 35% when you add it all up. Then I pay for my education and healthcare on top of that. Again, no society is perfect and I wouldn't move there if you paid me. I just think some aspects of our society could improve such as healthcare, education, and not having such a huge income inequality.
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Ava
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 19:31:52 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 9, 2013 19:31:52 GMT -5
Susana; you are right. I am newly "American", lol. I became a citizen in 2011, and I've been here for 11 years. The country I come from is more socialistic than the USA but not as much as Norway, nowhere near that. I think it depends on your goals and personality. I like to work, but I would love to know I'll still have a home and food if I become unemployed. I have goals that are not financial. Not everything is measured in financial achievements. Again, I'm sure it's not perfect. But some things such as universal healthcare and education for all are, in my view, a plus. Obviously I come from a different culture and those ideas are not as "foreign" to me as they can be to average Americans. Of course we are not going to become a socialistic country, but we have to recognize that some things seem to work pretty well, and we are not using them.
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 19:54:03 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 9, 2013 19:54:03 GMT -5
About the Gov. taking 70% of income; that's a lot. But I also think we pay one way or the other. The Gov. takes around 23% of my income, but then I pay taxes on everything I consume. I'm talking about basic stuff such as gas for my car, groceries for my meals, taxes on my little simple condo, and my winter electricity bill. It doesn't get to 70% but I can guess is easily 35% when you add it all up. Then I pay for my education and healthcare on top of that.
Ava, that's 70% income tax, not total tax. You don't think that they pay taxes on their goods too? Norway has a 25% VAT on goods on top of their income tax, so they are paying quite a bit more than what we are paying in the US. The highest rate of sales tax in the US is less than half that. Norway not only has a gas tax, they have a road use tax and a CO2 tax.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Nov 9, 2013 20:02:54 GMT -5
Somebody has to pay for all that universal what have you. Scandinavian countries pay for it with confiscatory taxes. There's a huge difference between taxes at 23% and taxes at 70%. Scandinavian countries have a fairly high suicide rate, if I recall correctly, and it's not just because of the long winters. Like Mich, I am acquainted with several transplants from that area, all of whom left because they had life goals that didn't include clinical depression and "parity" with everyone else, and they didn't want to be punished for being successful. As others have pointed out, there is no incentive to do much more than is absolutely necessary. That kind of environment doesn't foster innovation or other attributes that American society values. If you want us to stagnate and decline, I think the Scandinavian model would be a good start.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 9, 2013 20:26:59 GMT -5
Ava....if things are so good in Norway, why did your professor leave? I wonder if he is like one of the overtaxed professionals I've met.
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Nov 9, 2013 20:44:39 GMT -5
Somebody has to pay for all that universal what have you. Scandinavian countries pay for it with confiscatory taxes. There's a huge difference between taxes at 23% and taxes at 70%. Scandinavian countries have a fairly high suicide rate, if I recall correctly, and it's not just because of the long winters. Like Mich, I am acquainted with several transplants from that area, all of whom left because they had life goals that didn't include clinical depression and "parity" with everyone else, and they didn't want to be punished for being successful. As others have pointed out, there is no incentive to do much more than is absolutely necessary. That kind of environment doesn't foster innovation or other attributes that American society values. If you want us to stagnate and decline, I think the Scandinavian model would be a good start. A nice way of articulating what I've been thinking. I loathe the direction I see our country heading in. Everyone gets a trophy won't keep us fed.
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Ava
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 21:49:12 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 9, 2013 21:49:12 GMT -5
I don't want the U.S. to stagnate and fail. Of course not.
Ava....if things are so good in Norway, why did your professor leave? I wonder if he is like one of the overtaxed professionals I've met.
My professor was there for three years. He went there to get an education for free. I don't know the details, but I think he never intended to stay, probably did have a student visa only.
I wouldn't like to pay 70% taxes on my income and then pay taxes on everything else. I could never live in a country with the weather they have; I can hardly deal with winters in CT anymore, and I'm looking forward to moving south. But I still think they do some things better than here. There's nothing wrong with admitting that others have a better idea and adapt it to our own culture. Again, universal healthcare, education, maternity leave, for example. We are a rich country and many people don't have access to these things. All of them are available in Argentina. You cannot consider Argentina a socialist country. I arrived here in 2002 and didn't have access to health insurance until 2008. Until then, I lived on a hope and a prayer that my appendix wouldn't explode, for instance, or I didn't get any illness or accident. I was working two fast-food jobs and barely making it to the end of the month. I was a legal alien. The only health care I got during those years were checkups when I visited the old country. How is that fair?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 9, 2013 21:57:38 GMT -5
I don't want the U.S. to stagnate and fail. Of course not. Ava....if things are so good in Norway, why did your professor leave? I wonder if he is like one of the overtaxed professionals I've met.
My professor was there for three years. He went there to get an education for free. I don't know the details, but I think he never intended to stay, probably did have a student visa only. I wouldn't like to pay 70% taxes on my income and then pay taxes on everything else. I could never live in a country with the weather they have; I can hardly deal with winters in CT anymore, and I'm looking forward to moving south. But I still think they do some things better than here. There's nothing wrong with admitting that others have a better idea and adapt it to our own culture. Again, universal healthcare, education, maternity leave, for example. We are a rich country and many people don't have access to these things. All of them are available in Argentina. You cannot consider Argentina a socialist country. I arrived here in 2002 and didn't have access to health insurance until 2008. Until then, I lived on a hope and a prayer that my appendix wouldn't explode, for instance, or I didn't get any illness or accident. I was working two fast-food jobs and barely making it to the end of the month. I was a legal alien. The only health care I got during those years were checkups when I visited the old country. How is that fair? No offense, but you weren't a citizen. Why would it be fair for the taxpayers to pay for anything for you? This is going to sound snarky and I don't mean it to be, but if you thought the US was so unfair why didn't you return to your own country?
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dannylion
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 22:07:32 GMT -5
Post by dannylion on Nov 9, 2013 22:07:32 GMT -5
If everything is so much better somewhere else, why do so many people still want to come here?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 9, 2013 22:16:38 GMT -5
I don't want the U.S. to stagnate and fail. Of course not. Ava....if things are so good in Norway, why did your professor leave? I wonder if he is like one of the overtaxed professionals I've met.
My professor was there for three years. He went there to get an education for free. I don't know the details, but I think he never intended to stay, probably did have a student visa only. I wouldn't like to pay 70% taxes on my income and then pay taxes on everything else. I could never live in a country with the weather they have; I can hardly deal with winters in CT anymore, and I'm looking forward to moving south. But I still think they do some things better than here. There's nothing wrong with admitting that others have a better idea and adapt it to our own culture. Again, universal healthcare, education, maternity leave, for example. We are a rich country and many people don't have access to these things. All of them are available in Argentina. You cannot consider Argentina a socialist country. I arrived here in 2002 and didn't have access to health insurance until 2008. Until then, I lived on a hope and a prayer that my appendix wouldn't explode, for instance, or I didn't get any illness or accident. I was working two fast-food jobs and barely making it to the end of the month. I was a legal alien. The only health care I got during those years were checkups when I visited the old country. How is that fair? So your professor got his education at the expense at the expense of the Norwegian taxpayer. Do you think that is fair? And then he left Norway, so he didn't have to contribute the fruits of his education (I.e. taxes) for other generations. BTW...you had access to healthcare, you just didn't pay for it. No one stopped you from buying a policy.
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Ava
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 22:20:19 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 9, 2013 22:20:19 GMT -5
I stayed here because the economy was horrible back home. Horrible in the way it is horrible now in Spain, with about 25% unemployment rate.Young people getting drugged, violence, robberies, a general sense of despair and no future. Who can live that way? My brother and other people formed clubs and traded services in a barter system, in order to survive. And he's a high school teacher who always had a job, not someone with no education.
No offense, but you weren't a citizen. Why would it be fair for the taxpayers to pay for anything for you?
I am now a citizen and if it wasn't because I went to school while working full-time, I would still be in the same exact situation I was back then. I am an honest, decent and reliable worker. I was then in my thirties, I spoke good English and I already had an education from the country I came for. None of that counted. Like I said, I still would be without insurance if I hadn't gone to school here. If I had kept working two full-time jobs and not gone back to school, I would still be very poor and no health coverage.
But you guys don't like any of the things countries like Norway are doing? You don't think any of their ideas are good enough that you'll like to "steal" them? I like some of their ideas, although I agree that giving people no incentives makes them lazy and depressed. We see it in the U.S. with welfare. I still like some of the things they do, though I wouldn't do everything their way.
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Ava
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 22:26:28 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 9, 2013 22:26:28 GMT -5
So your professor got his education at the expense at the expense of the Norwegian taxpayer. Do you think that is fair? And then he left Norway, so he didn't have to contribute the fruits of his education (I.e. taxes) for other generations.
Yes, that's exactly what he did. They educate anyone, no matter where they come from or whether they plan to stay or not. I am not saying what he did was right, by the way. It's the way it happened.
BTW...you had access to healthcare, you just didn't pay for it. No one stopped you from buying a policy.
I couldn't afford to pay a policy. I worked two almost full-time minimum wage jobs, and had a lot of expenses; first when I lived with my husband, and then when I lived on my own. Rent, groceries, heating, etc. My husband made o.k. money for a little while, then injured his back and got hooked in drugs and alcohol. It was a long, painful downward spiral to hell, and I was trying to hold it together for a long time. I look for policies online but they were really expensive for me. I couldn't pay that kind of money.
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 22:31:17 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 9, 2013 22:31:17 GMT -5
But you guys don't like any of the things countries like Norway are doing? You don't think any of their ideas are good enough that you'll like to "steal" them? I like some of their ideas, although I agree that giving people no incentives makes them lazy and depressed. We see it in the U.S. with welfare. I still like some of the things they do, though I wouldn't do everything their way. Where do you think the money to pay for these ideas will come from? Right now, if you want to get ahead, there is incentive to do so. So it makes sense in your mind to take that incentive to better themselves away? Why did you work your tail off for all these years if it wasn't to have a better life? Would you be as willing to work so hard so Joe Schmoe could watch TV and drink beer all day while you work?
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Ava
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Norway
Nov 9, 2013 23:58:44 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 9, 2013 23:58:44 GMT -5
Where would the money come from? I think there's a lot of waste in Government expenses. It would be good rearranging that.
Would I work hard so someone can stay home and watch TV?
I would work hard so a new mom can take a decent maternity leave, or people can go to school without worrying about student debt, or to make sure all of us, born here, recent immigrant, whatever, have access to health care. While you can argue that maternity is an option, education and health care should be a given. It benefits all of us to have an educated and healthy population.
I like this country and there is a lot of opportunity here. But in order to succeed you not only have to work hard, but you also have to be very lucky. I worked hard for many years before I started having some sort of success and I could see a light at the end of the tunnel. It all came because someone I know brought me an application for a cashier position. That job was entry-level but paid 1 1/2 time minimum wage, came with benefits, and had available overtime on Saturdays. That's when I finally could go to only one job and attend school. If that friend hadn't thought of me when the job became available, maybe I'll still be working two minimum wage jobs just to survive. Who knows? It took me years to find that opportunity. And I was lucky because I lived in an unsafe place, but never got attacked. I never got sick, and my depression never got to paralyze me. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't close our mind to other ideas because they are not "capitalist", or they are different to what we generally do. It doesn't mean we have to change our whole system, but we can tweak it here and there if it means improvement. There's always going to be a percentage of abuse of whatever program you provide, be it food stamps, free education, maternity leave. I learned to live with it. We'll never completely eliminate abuse from our programs, so that shouldn't stop us.
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Ava
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Norway
Nov 10, 2013 0:32:53 GMT -5
Post by Ava on Nov 10, 2013 0:32:53 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Norway
Nov 10, 2013 2:36:25 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2013 2:36:25 GMT -5
Assuming Wikipedia is right - The tax level in Norway is among the highest in the world. In 2009 the total tax revenue was 41.0% of the gross domestic product (GDP). Many direct and indirect taxes exist. The most important taxes—in terms of revenue—are income tax and VAT. When the employers' social security contribution is included, the maximum marginal tax rate on labour costs is 54,3%. Add in VAT taxes and other taxes and I want no part of that system. The reason wealth is not seen is that there is little or no new money and old money is very adept at hiding their wealth or leaving the country. In addition Norway has significant oil production and revenues and still taxes like this.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 10, 2013 6:58:45 GMT -5
I stayed here because the economy was horrible back home. Horrible in the way it is horrible now in Spain, with about 25% unemployment rate.Young people getting drugged, violence, robberies, a general sense of despair and no future. Who can live that way? My brother and other people formed clubs and traded services in a barter system, in order to survive. And he's a high school teacher who always had a job, not someone with no education. No offense, but you weren't a citizen. Why would it be fair for the taxpayers to pay for anything for you? I am now a citizen and if it wasn't because I went to school while working full-time, I would still be in the same exact situation I was back then. I am an honest, decent and reliable worker. I was then in my thirties, I spoke good English and I already had an education from the country I came for. None of that counted. Like I said, I still would be without insurance if I hadn't gone to school here. If I had kept working two full-time jobs and not gone back to school, I would still be very poor and no health coverage. But you guys don't like any of the things countries like Norway are doing? You don't think any of their ideas are good enough that you'll like to "steal" them? I like some of their ideas, although I agree that giving people no incentives makes them lazy and depressed. We see it in the U.S. with welfare. I still like some of the things they do, though I wouldn't do everything their way. Honestly, you saying that you couldn't afford to support yourself when you came here tells me exactly what is wrong with our immigration policy. You weren't able to support yourself (if you got really sick and wound up in the ER the taxpayers would have been footing the bill) yet our country let you in anyway. Hat is what pisses me off about immigration. We have enough people that need jobs, we don't need to bring in other people that aren't qualified for anything but unskilled jobs.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Nov 10, 2013 8:17:05 GMT -5
What ever happened to "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? Americans seem to forget that they are a nation of immigrants. I doubt the bulk of people milking the system are recent immigrants who have had the hutzpah to leave everything they know and love behind simply for an opportunity at a better life.
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milee
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Post by milee on Nov 10, 2013 8:34:45 GMT -5
What ever happened to "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? Americans seem to forget that they are a nation of immigrants. I doubt the bulk of people milking the system are recent immigrants who have had the hutzpah to leave everything they know and love behind simply for an opportunity at a better life. When the phrase "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" was penned, there were no social programs. Everybody who wanted a chance at a better life was welcome to come on in and try it and it didn't cost the other citizens a thing if the immigrants failed. Reasonable system. I'm well aware I'm the only one on the board who feels this way, but I actually support more immigration and a path to citizenship for immigrants. In Arizona I knew many illegal immigrants and IMHO anyone who is willing to walk 100 miles across that desert to work hard for a better life is exactly the type of person that made this country great. But along with that, I think we need to return to the older model with less of a social safety net, so the immigration system does attract and reward the hard workers, the innovators, the risk takers and not people who move because they have better free stuff in one place than they have where they currently live.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Nov 10, 2013 8:42:58 GMT -5
I don't know if there have been any studies to this effect, in my opinion people who are willing to walk across a desert, are NOT the ones taking advantage of social programs. For example, in my area we have 10% unemployment. While citizens are protesting cuts to employment insurance making harder for them to repeatedly abuse it, they are bringing in foreign workers who are willing to do the minimum wage jobs. That's where I think e protectionist ideal is wrong. It is not immigrants who are lazy and not willing to work it is entitled citizens.
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milee
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Post by milee on Nov 10, 2013 8:57:06 GMT -5
I don't know if there have been any studies to this effect, in my opinion people who are willing to walk across a desert, are NOT the ones taking advantage of social programs. For example, in my area we have 10% unemployment. While citizens are protesting cuts to employment insurance making harder for them to repeatedly abuse it, they are bringing in foreign workers who are willing to do the minimum wage jobs. That's where I think e protectionist ideal is wrong. It is not immigrants who are lazy and not willing to work it is entitled citizens. Agree. In the past, the USA attracted the best, brightest and hardest working because there were opportunities to use those skills to be successful. If we take away the ability to be successful by excessive taxation, then we no longer attract those people. We attract the second tier and the users - like the professor who went to another country for the free education and then moved here to actually work.
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alabamagal
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Norway
Nov 10, 2013 8:58:01 GMT -5
Post by alabamagal on Nov 10, 2013 8:58:01 GMT -5
I spent ~6 months total on a work assignment in Norway, and still have some friends there.
First of all Norway is not a member of the EU. The reason I heard is that they did not want to share their riches with other countries. Norway has a lot of valable natural resources, mainly oil and timber.
Norway has a very high GDP and also a large welfare state, paid for by high taxes. It also has one of the lowest wage difference from highest to lowest paid.
My impression from my time there is that you didn't see any poor, but you didn't see any rich either.
I worked in a small town about an hour from Oslo. There was not a lot of diversity there. One of my co-workers was of Ethiopian descent, and he really stood out everywhere we went in the small town. Oslo was more diverse. I do not know their immigration policy.
The people in Norway were the friendliest of all the places I visited for work in Europe. English is spoken by a lot of people there. I was told that this was mainly because there are few TV shows in Norweigan, so they watch lots of English language TV. I really enjoyed my time in Norway. But I was also there during the mostly summer months. I bet the winters are long there.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Nov 10, 2013 9:11:42 GMT -5
One thing I do like about Norway is how they handle maternity leave. I don't know how many weeks they currently get off from work, but you can get a bunch of weeks off at 100% pay, or an even longer stretch at 80% pay. I'm past the "making babies" stage, but I've often thought the US lags behind the rest of the world in maternity leave policies. Like 6 weeks is a long time with a new baby. My grandparents were immigrants. They were given NOTHING for coming over here. Only the opportunity to make it. They didn't even get social security in their old age. Not sure how they did it, but they did o.k.
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Formerly SK
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Norway
Nov 10, 2013 10:22:20 GMT -5
Post by Formerly SK on Nov 10, 2013 10:22:20 GMT -5
Assuming Wikipedia is right - The tax level in Norway is among the highest in the world. In 2009 the total tax revenue was 41.0% of the gross domestic product (GDP). Many direct and indirect taxes exist. The most important taxes—in terms of revenue—are income tax and VAT. When the employers' social security contribution is included, the maximum marginal tax rate on labour costs is 54,3%. Add in VAT taxes and other taxes and I want no part of that system. The reason wealth is not seen is that there is little or no new money and old money is very adept at hiding their wealth or leaving the country. In addition Norway has significant oil production and revenues and still taxes like this. I don't see the difference between paying $1000/mo in health insurance premiums and $1000/mo in taxes. Either way I'm still out the $1000. Say a typical US family pays $1000/mo in taxes, $1000/mo in health insurance premiums, and $300/mo in student loan payments. Is that worse than a typical Norwegian family paying $2300/mo in taxes? Sure the Norwegian family has a huge tax bill, but that is in name only - the financial output per family is the same. I don't know if Norway's system is better than ours. What are their employment stats? What about health care spending as a percentage of GDP? What condition is their infrastructure in? What is their crime rate? These are the things that would tell me whether their system is better, not some tax percentage.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 10, 2013 10:35:24 GMT -5
One thing I do like about Norway is how they handle maternity leave. I don't know how many weeks they currently get off from work, but you can get a bunch of weeks off at 100% pay, or an even longer stretch at 80% pay. I'm past the "making babies" stage, but I've often thought the US lags behind the rest of the world in maternity leave policies. Like 6 weeks is a long time with a new baby. My grandparents were immigrants. They were given NOTHING for coming over here. Only the opportunity to make it. They didn't even get social security in their old age. Not sure how they did it, but they did o.k. And that is the difference between the immigrants of the old days versus the immigrants of today. I bet your grandparents didn't whine that it wasn't fair that they landed here penniless and the US wouldn't give them hinge like healthcare for free
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mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
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Norway
Nov 10, 2013 11:13:57 GMT -5
Post by mmhmm on Nov 10, 2013 11:13:57 GMT -5
Assuming Wikipedia is right - The tax level in Norway is among the highest in the world. In 2009 the total tax revenue was 41.0% of the gross domestic product (GDP). Many direct and indirect taxes exist. The most important taxes—in terms of revenue—are income tax and VAT. When the employers' social security contribution is included, the maximum marginal tax rate on labour costs is 54,3%. Add in VAT taxes and other taxes and I want no part of that system. The reason wealth is not seen is that there is little or no new money and old money is very adept at hiding their wealth or leaving the country. In addition Norway has significant oil production and revenues and still taxes like this. I don't see the difference between paying $1000/mo in health insurance premiums and $1000/mo in taxes. Either way I'm still out the $1000. Say a typical US family pays $1000/mo in taxes, $1000/mo in health insurance premiums, and $300/mo in student loan payments. Is that worse than a typical Norwegian family paying $2300/mo in taxes? Sure the Norwegian family has a huge tax bill, but that is in name only - the financial output per family is the same. I don't know if Norway's system is better than ours. What are their employment stats? What about health care spending as a percentage of GDP? What condition is their infrastructure in? What is their crime rate? These are the things that would tell me whether their system is better, not some tax percentage. This article may help to answer some of your questions, SK: OECD
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zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 10, 2013 19:48:17 GMT -5
My dad and his siblings were those immigrants. He worked so the other 3 could go to school. They took English classes from the rich ladies who donated their time to settlement houses. THAT is what immigrants got for free back then. My Dads sisters went to secretaryl school because that's all women were back then and his brother went to HS, college, and then law school on my dad. The 4 of them shared a nasty apartment for years in order to succeed. Once my one aunt was married and the other was living still with my dad, and his brother out of school, my Dad turned his attention to himself and made a success of himself. He had a plane and a Cadillac convertible. The American dream to him it seems! By the time he got everyone situated he was in his 40s. Along comes my mom, the rest is history. But there was no safety net. You had to be healthy and self supporting to get in this country. After that, it was up to you to succeed. Most did. I'm for legal immigration and no welfare for any immigrant no matter what. Free education is enough of a gift. You want to eat and live somewhere? Get aJOB.
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