Ava
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Post by Ava on Nov 10, 2013 21:22:40 GMT -5
I'm surprised and sad how this thread has evolved into a hate and bash immigrants. The intention of the thread was to discuss and comment possible ideas of what other countries do better and we could think about implementing them here, nothing else. I guess it's my fault in part because I answered those initial comments about immigration with my own personal story. I don't feel I owe anyone an explanation. If I'm reading the comments correctly I'm not worth of being here in the U.S., a country I love by the way, because I don't have special skills or because I had a tough go at it during my first years. Why all the hate and anger towards immigrants? We are not the worst problem the country has, and we are not taking anything away from you personally. We are just people who are trying to live and get ahead, just like you. Never happened to me before in this country, but I feel discriminated here right now. I've been a member of this online community for years, and many members have been a sounding board, and in a certain way, some company for a woman who is very much alone and doing what she can with her life. I am going to take a break from this community for a little while; it's becoming a negative experience for me lately, between seeing how many posters get nasty and rude comments and then disappear from here, to the amount of negativity I'm perceiving right now. Happy holidays everyone.
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justme
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Norway
Nov 10, 2013 21:37:45 GMT -5
Post by justme on Nov 10, 2013 21:37:45 GMT -5
I've been wracking my head as a read through this thread for an internationally known and respected university from Norway. Also, any new inventions from there. There probably are some, but I can't think of the last thing.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 10, 2013 21:47:13 GMT -5
A a, I was not trying to discriminate against you. But I had to reply to your comments as you wrote them and your feelings of "how is it fair that I didn't have health care in a country of which I wasn't even a citizen" in particular. We all do what is best for us and as such, people come to the US ivy the hundreds of thousands. We are in debt up to our eyeballs and can't afford to be a safety net for not only our own citizens but the citizens of every other country that come here.
I did not intend to offend you but I'm also not going to stand behind what I think or believe is best for our country.
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econstudent
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Post by econstudent on Nov 10, 2013 22:54:28 GMT -5
No offense, but you weren't a citizen. Why would it be fair for the taxpayers to pay for anything for you? This is going to sound snarky and I don't mean it to be, but if you thought the US was so unfair why didn't you return to your own country? I'm not sure what being a citizen has to do with it. There are certainly plenty of citizens without access to coverage, or affordable coverage.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 11, 2013 0:17:58 GMT -5
I don't know very much about Norway. About all I know about it is that's it's very into socialism, and it's cold as balls there. Oh, and that it's a tiny country with a tiny, homogionious population. I don't think many of the ideas of governance employed there can be really applied to a country as large and diverse as the U.S.
As others have said, the social services provided over there come at heavy cost to the citizens in the form of taxes. Therefore there's no incentive to get ahead and work hard. That's something many Americans have trouble accepting. Perhaps it's just culterual differences. Socialism has always been met with deep distrust in American society.
However, over the last 8 years or so, I have noticed a turn towards socialism by the country.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 11, 2013 0:32:52 GMT -5
The idea of your professor moving to Norway to get a free education paid for by the taxpayers of that country then bailing and not contributing back is not endearing.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 11, 2013 0:35:23 GMT -5
I stayed here because the economy was horrible back home. Horrible in the way it is horrible now in Spain, with about 25% unemployment rate.Young people getting drugged, violence, robberies, a general sense of despair and no future. Who can live that way? My brother and other people formed clubs and traded services in a barter system, in order to survive. And he's a high school teacher who always had a job, not someone with no education. No offense, but you weren't a citizen. Why would it be fair for the taxpayers to pay for anything for you? I am now a citizen and if it wasn't because I went to school while working full-time, I would still be in the same exact situation I was back then. I am an honest, decent and reliable worker. I was then in my thirties, I spoke good English and I already had an education from the country I came for. None of that counted. Like I said, I still would be without insurance if I hadn't gone to school here. If I had kept working two full-time jobs and not gone back to school, I would still be very poor and no health coverage. But you guys don't like any of the things countries like Norway are doing? You don't think any of their ideas are good enough that you'll like to "steal" them? I like some of their ideas, although I agree that giving people no incentives makes them lazy and depressed. We see it in the U.S. with welfare. I still like some of the things they do, though I wouldn't do everything their way. You're entitled to your opinion Ava. There's nothing wrong with thinking that way. Just many on this message board may disagree, which is fine too.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 11, 2013 7:20:26 GMT -5
I have a problem with someone coming to this country because their own country wasnt a good fit for them and then proceeding to bite the hand that feeds them. So sorry you had to work two jobs. Lets see, my Dad swept floors and drove a taxi, for a very long time, to support his siblings. No free food, no free health care, no subsidized housing and utilities, no free cell phones, the list is endless. They were grateful this country took them in and sheltered them and gave them the opportunity to have a better life. Nowadays, it seems the immigrants just aren't satisfied with what they can do for themselves but what ours should be doing for them. If its so great in other countries, I suggest you go there. It's been suggested that American citizens who don't like the way this country is headed, to leave, so why not vice versa?
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Cookies Galore
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Nov 11, 2013 7:32:59 GMT -5
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Post by Cookies Galore on Nov 11, 2013 7:32:59 GMT -5
Sorry people have been assholes to you for asking some questions, ava. I happen to admire what you have been able to accomplish on your own in a new country.
And just for the record for the main point of this thread, but the US has some of the highest healthcare expenditures (GDP percentage) at 17%. I had to look up Norway and it's 9.4%. I always thought of the high US' GDP spending to be common knowledge.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 11, 2013 8:25:23 GMT -5
I don't know much about Norway, but I agree that the US has much room for improvement via a real safety net and equality of opportunity through schooling without being saddled with huge costs.
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Miss Tequila
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Nov 11, 2013 10:01:50 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 10:01:50 GMT -5
Sorry people have been assholes to you for asking some questions, ava. I happen to admire what you have been able to accomplish on your own in a new country. And just for the record for the main point of this thread, but the US has some of the highest healthcare expenditures (GDP percentage) at 17%. I had to look up Norway and it's 9.4%. I always thought of the high US' GDP spending to be common knowledge. I don't see any hate going on.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 10:08:06 GMT -5
No offense, but you weren't a citizen. Why would it be fair for the taxpayers to pay for anything for you? This is going to sound snarky and I don't mean it to be, but if you thought the US was so unfair why didn't you return to your own country? I'm not sure what being a citizen has to do with it. There are certainly plenty of citizens without access to coverage, or affordable coverage. And our country is addressing that (quite poorly i might add). Even if I agree that we owe the citizens of our country health care I sure as hell don't believe we owe citizens of the world healthcare.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 10:13:37 GMT -5
"I arrived here in 2002 and didn't have access to health insurance until 2008. Until then, I lived on a hope and a prayer that my appendix wouldn't explode, for instance, or I didn't get any illness or accident. I was working two fast-food jobs and barely making it to the end of the month. I was a legal alien. The only health care I got during those years were checkups when I visited the old country. How is that fair?"
I've been in this country since 1994, first as a student (had insurance through school), then working for a company that didn't offer health insurance (so I got my own for about $125/mo without maternity coverage), then finally had insurance through my work. It was your choice to not get insurance. I am still not a US citizen. I have been legally here the whole time, student visa, H1, then finally green card. I am finally eligible to apply for my citizenship (which I will soon). I would never think to complain that the government is not giving me free healthcare even if I was a citizen. And I would not like it if the government was taking 70% taxes out of my paycheck (which I worked hard for) to sponsor somebody who just got to this country or even someone that was born in this country who didn't feel like working as hard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 10:18:06 GMT -5
"I'm surprised and sad how this thread has evolved into a hate and bash immigrants."
I am sorry you feel that way but as an immigrant myself, I don't feel anybody is bashing immigrants. I think zib said it the best "I have a problem with someone coming to this country because their own country wasnt a good fit for them and then proceeding to bite the hand that feeds them."
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Nov 11, 2013 10:30:17 GMT -5
I see how Ava feels attacked. From my understanding she came to the US to be with her husband. Ex turned out to be an abusive asshole. She left him, and then proceeded to work 2 minimum wage jobs while putting herself through school. She graduated, got a job in her field and now she's enrolled in a masters program. Pretty much what we want from people, citizens or not. She also became a citizen in that time frame. But she starts a post to talk about benefits of another culture and is told that if she doesn't like it here she should just leave.
Saying that she likes the idea of universal healthcare and education doesn't say to me that she doesn't like the US.
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skubikky
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Nov 11, 2013 10:39:38 GMT -5
Post by skubikky on Nov 11, 2013 10:39:38 GMT -5
I am reading a series of mysteries by Willow Rose set in Denmark. Admittedly, it is fiction, but I guess she knows her locale. One minor character only works because it is required for him to get his public aid. Another minor character who is killed gets subsidized housing, benefits, etc. because she is so obese that she has to have a social service health care person come to give her a bath. I lived and worked in Denmark. It'is true that income tax rates are quite high. How else would the govt be able to finance the free healthcare and college educations? That being said, the Danes that I had come to know were for the most part very modest and educated. They don't possess the level of focus on material possessions that we do here. Owning a car was/is very expensive so most used bicycles and public transportation. Their work week at Ericsson was 37 hours. Weekends were devoted to visiting family and friends. They had an interesting love for badminton? We played in a company league.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 11, 2013 10:46:41 GMT -5
I see how Ava feels attacked. From my understanding she came to the US to be with her husband. Ex turned out to be an abusive asshole. She left him, and then proceeded to work 2 minimum wage jobs while putting herself through school. She graduated, got a job in her field and now she's enrolled in a masters program. Pretty much what we want from people, citizens or not. She also became a citizen in that time frame. But she starts a post to talk about benefits of another culture and is told that if she doesn't like it here she should just leave. Saying that she likes the idea of universal healthcare and education doesn't say to me that she doesn't like the US. No one told her that she should leave. No one jumped on her bandwagon, and I don't think that she sees the hypocrisy where a professor that she admires uses a country for their free education (and likely healthcare), then jumps ship to teach in another country where he doesn't have to pay back to the country. I think that that's a pretty crappy thing to do. I have a lot of friends who come to the US and many at the bottom of the pecking order in order to work their way back up again. I worked with one guy who came to the US when he was 50, from China. He spoke very little English but was a VERY well regarded physician in China. He cannot practice in the US, but he worked his ass off to remake himself as a researcher (making barely over minimum wage, which many do). He brought his wife and daughter over, wife was also a researcher (previous physician) who managed to remake herself as well and their daughter went to medical school. Husband now runs his own lab, wife works for another PI, they all are now US citizens. This is only one of the examples of about 8 other families that I know from across the world that did this, from China to India, to Denmark, Sweden, Turkey and a few other countries that escape me. She did have the opportunity to buy healthcare, working 2 jobs. She chose not to, because she thought it was a better use of her money to use it to travel home. But that was HER choice to make. Speaking of which, while my dad was in the military defending this country, HE worked 2 jobs as well and my mother worked too in order to keep money flowing in (one was the night shift at the local 7-11 in Washington DC where he got robbed one night) and they were not immigrants. So working 2 jobs is not out of the norm.
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Norway
Nov 11, 2013 10:58:58 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 11, 2013 10:58:58 GMT -5
They don't possess the level of focus on material possessions that we do here.
It's probably largely because they are so heavily taxed. I was the token lab person to show one of the dentists from Sweden that came to work in our lab around Boston. He wanted to go into a store, so I took him into Filene's at downtown crossing. He went utterly nuts in the household goods department as he said that cotton was incredibly expensive in Sweden, so they usually bought very little with no spares. When he flew home for a visit, he took back a large suitcase that contained only sheets and towels to his family that was still in Sweden (I was a pack mule that day). He said the couple hundred $$ he spent would have cost way more over there.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 11:15:27 GMT -5
I see how Ava feels attacked. From my understanding she came to the US to be with her husband. Ex turned out to be an abusive asshole. She left him, and then proceeded to work 2 minimum wage jobs while putting herself through school. She graduated, got a job in her field and now she's enrolled in a masters program. Pretty much what we want from people, citizens or not. She also became a citizen in that time frame. But she starts a post to talk about benefits of another culture and is told that if she doesn't like it here she should just leave. Saying that she likes the idea of universal healthcare and education doesn't say to me that she doesn't like the US. I never said a word until she said she didn't have insurance and how fair is that....I asked how fair it was to expect health insurance from a country of which you aren't even a citizen My great grandparents were immigrants and I'm greatful that they came here. But I also know that times were different back then. Immigrants didn't expect anything from this country but a chance to work hard and earn a good life for their family.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 11:17:30 GMT -5
I am reading a series of mysteries by Willow Rose set in Denmark. Admittedly, it is fiction, but I guess she knows her locale. One minor character only works because it is required for him to get his public aid. Another minor character who is killed gets subsidized housing, benefits, etc. because she is so obese that she has to have a social service health care person come to give her a bath. I lived and worked in Denmark. It'is true that income tax rates are quite high. How else would the govt be able to finance the free healthcare and college educations? That being said, the Danes that I had come to know were for the most part very modest and educated. They don't possess the level of focus on material possessions that we do here. Owning a car was/is very expensive so most used bicycles and public transportation. Their work week at Ericsson was 37 hours. Weekends were devoted to visiting family and friends. They had an interesting love for badminton? We played in a company league. I don't want to live in a country that is so expensive that I can't afford a car and need to rely on public transportation.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Nov 11, 2013 12:30:27 GMT -5
What ever happened to "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? Americans seem to forget that they are a nation of immigrants. I doubt the bulk of people milking the system are recent immigrants who have had the hutzpah to leave everything they know and love behind simply for an opportunity at a better life. Hmm, I don't seem to remember that phrase in any of our nation's governing documents. Oh, yeah, that phrase somes from a poem by Emma Lazarus. The aspirations, vision, and opinion of a poet that are inscribed on a plaque that was placed on the foundation of the Statue of Liberty. Certainly fitting that such an aspirational work should be placed in what many consider to be the symbol of liberty and freedom. But, I think we also need to recognize that, while a nation of immigrants, the US has not typically accepted anyone who appeared on our door step, or walked across our borders. The US history of restrictions on immigration go back to the Naturalization Act of 1790. At the beginning of our contry, our citizens had the economic vision to understand that the US could not provide a home and life's necessities for everyone who wanted to come. So those who would be a burden on our society were turned away. Not an action consistent with Lazarus' vision. But, certainly consistent with economic reality.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 11, 2013 12:36:05 GMT -5
To get back to the OP -
No, I don't want to live in a socialist(ic) country.
That said, I think the US has huge problems with: maternity leave, mental health/sick leave, and health care.
We could take a few notes from most of the rest of the world in these areas, and still be left with 50% of our own money.
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HoneyBBQ
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Nov 11, 2013 12:36:15 GMT -5
Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 11, 2013 12:36:15 GMT -5
oops, sorry double post
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Baby Fawkes
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Nov 11, 2013 12:40:19 GMT -5
Post by Baby Fawkes on Nov 11, 2013 12:40:19 GMT -5
I never said a word until she said she didn't have insurance and how fair is that....I asked how fair it was to expect health insurance from a country of which you aren't even a citizen I'm definitely not in the camp that everyone should get access to health coverage/insurance immediately or at no personal cost, but I would definitely not claim that being a citizen should be the defining factor. I've been here for 9 years now and still don't even qualify to apply for citizenship. I've paid the exact same taxes as any citizen would, so I would argue that it's not necessarily citizenship, but the fact of contributing to the system that would be the defining factor.
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Deleted
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Nov 11, 2013 12:42:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 12:42:46 GMT -5
"I'm definitely not in the camp that everyone should get access to health coverage/insurance, but I would definitely not claim that being a citizen should be the defining factor. I've been here for 9 years now and still don't even qualify to apply for citizenship. I've paid the exact same taxes as any citizen would, so I would argue that it's not necessarily citizenship, but the fact of contributing to the system that would be the defining factor."
I have been here for 19 years and I think it should be both: citizen and contributing. I am not even a citizen yet. I assume you mean access to FREE health coverage/insurance because I have had insurance and access to health care the whole time I have been here.
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Baby Fawkes
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Nov 11, 2013 12:47:06 GMT -5
Post by Baby Fawkes on Nov 11, 2013 12:47:06 GMT -5
"I'm definitely not in the camp that everyone should get access to health coverage/insurance, but I would definitely not claim that being a citizen should be the defining factor. I've been here for 9 years now and still don't even qualify to apply for citizenship. I've paid the exact same taxes as any citizen would, so I would argue that it's not necessarily citizenship, but the fact of contributing to the system that would be the defining factor." I have been here for 19 years and I think it should be both. Citizen and contributing. So how would that work for someone like myself? Does that mean I shouldn't have access to healthcare/insurance even after contributing to society for over 9 years? I definitely contribute financially in the exact same way as a citizen does. It's not for the lack of desire to apply for citizenship, but I'm just not applicable to even file the application yet, so where does that leave someone like me? Also, I'm not attacking you opinion, just interested in what you would suggest in this case?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 12:57:46 GMT -5
"So how would that work for someone like myself? Does that mean I shouldn't have access to healthcare/insurance even after contributing to society for over 9 years? I definitely contribute financially in the exact same way as a citizen does.
It's not for the lack of desire to apply for citizenship, but I'm just not applicable to even file the application yet, so where does that leave someone like me? Also, I'm not attacking you opinion, just interested in what you would suggest in this case?"
Do you mean access to FREE healthcare/insurance? Because you already have access to both assuming you are legal, you just have to pay for it, you don't have to be a citizen. I have been here since 1994, I have been legal the whole time. I have been paying taxes for the past 13-14 years and before that I was paying for school. I had insurance the whole time. I finally became eligible to apply for citizenship this year in june so I have been in your shoes for a long time. What would I suggest in your case? I would suggest getting your own insurance.
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Baby Fawkes
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Nov 11, 2013 14:19:59 GMT -5
Post by Baby Fawkes on Nov 11, 2013 14:19:59 GMT -5
I'm not advocating for free healthcare over here. I thought you were saying that a non-citizen shouldn't have access to anything so I guess I misunderstood your point... sorry.
My stance on it is that it should be a function of contribution and legal residence regardless of citizenship. If the country you are living in doesn't provide government provided healthcare, then you have to buy it like anyone else, but it should be available to you (as it is). Likewise though, I think that if you're legally in a country that does provide free healthcare and contributing in the same way as a citizen does as far as taxes are concerned, then I think you should have access to that same resources. To me it's more a function of legal residence and contribution, not necessarily the fact of whether or not you are citizen.
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skubikky
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Nov 11, 2013 14:47:56 GMT -5
Post by skubikky on Nov 11, 2013 14:47:56 GMT -5
I lived and worked in Denmark. It'is true that income tax rates are quite high. How else would the govt be able to finance the free healthcare and college educations? That being said, the Danes that I had come to know were for the most part very modest and educated. They don't possess the level of focus on material possessions that we do here. Owning a car was/is very expensive so most used bicycles and public transportation. Their work week at Ericsson was 37 hours. Weekends were devoted to visiting family and friends. They had an interesting love for badminton? We played in a company league. I don't want to live in a country that is so expensive that I can't afford a car and need to rely on public transportation. This was in Copenhagen so public transportation was pretty good. Overall, the Danes seemed very happy. I know many New Yorkers(NYC) that don't own cars because keeping a car in a big city like that is very expensive. Especially the car insurance and parking costs.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2013 14:57:23 GMT -5
I don't want to live in a country that is so expensive that I can't afford a car and need to rely on public transportation. This was in Copenhagen so public transportation was pretty good. Overall, the Danes seemed very happy. I know many New Yorkers(NYC) that don't own cars because keeping a car in a big city like that is very expensive. Especially the car insurance and parking costs. Gotcha. I like having my car so I'm not a person that would choose to live in NYC, either
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