Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Feb 18, 2011 12:24:57 GMT -5
Hoops- The ex suggested the clause. He also wrote in how much money she had to make to "qualify" for child support. If she doesn't make 30 k a year, he can petition to have his support reduced. She was in panic mode when she was laid off last year. He is a mentally abusive "douchecanoe" and a real manipulator. Unfortunaley, she needed out- fast and signed it.
That aside- it was a designated college fund with kid as beneficiary. I don't know if it was a 529 or a cloverdale.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 18, 2011 12:33:34 GMT -5
"The ex suggested the clause. He also wrote in how much money she had to make to "qualify" for child support. If she doesn't make 30 k a year, he can petition to have his support reduced. She was in panic mode when she was laid off last year. He is a mentally abusive "douchecanoe" and a real manipulator. Unfortunaley, she needed out- fast and signed it"
So she either didn't have a lawyer, or had a terrible one. I don't buy the "she needed out fast" stuff, you can get out and away from someone without being divorced, that's no reason to blame your divorce settlement on some made up necessity to have it done immediately.
"That aside- it was a designated college fund with kid as beneficiary. I don't know if it was a 529 or a cloverdale. "
I'm by no means an expert in these kinds of things, but my personal opinion would be that if he was allowed to withdraw funds from these for his own education, he wasn't stealing (as that's essentially saying "I have this money saved up, it's for the education of either me or him" and then choosing to use it for yourself). If he had to forge something to say the expenses were for his kid, then yes he was.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Feb 18, 2011 12:51:31 GMT -5
I'm glad you live in such a rosy world. Unfortunately, she did not and I'll not go into details.
You are technically correct that he is the owner of the account, I don't think most kids who are told they have college money and the parents have spent it, would see it that way. In case of extreme need, I'm sure they would understand. But not in general use.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 18, 2011 13:13:59 GMT -5
"I don't think most kids who are told they have college money and the parents have spent it, would see it that way."
I think the most important issues are if the kids are told and how close they are to using those funds. Taking money your kid knows nothing about and isn't relying on at age 10 is a lot different than taking money you've promised to put toward college at 18 IMO.
"I'm glad you live in such a rosy world. Unfortunately, she did not and I'll not go into details."
What rosy world? I know people who have needed restraining orders against their spouses. My cousin had a spouse try to kill her during the divorce. None of the scenarios dictate that someone rush to sign the papers. "I had to sign the papers fast" is nothing more than an excuse. If she really cares about her child's college expenses she should be ashamed of herself for allowing such a meaningless clause.
I understand signing quickly because it's convenient for you to do so, but you still take responsibility for what you signed. They're equally responsible for the fact that there is $500 in the college fund with no necessity that he contribute more. All things must be weighed. Convenience of signing quickly vs getting a bad deal for you and your son. If it was worth it to her then she made the right call. She doesn't get absolved of responsibility just because she'd prefer to blame others though.
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misspt
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Post by misspt on Feb 18, 2011 13:23:37 GMT -5
Firebird posted: Personally, I couldn't care less if my kids go to college or not. My aim is to equip them to make their own choices about their futures, not to direct those futures to look a certain way. College isn't for everyone, and if they decide that it's for them then they need to do what it takes to make that happen. If they decide it's not for them then they need to live with the consequences.
Thumbs up for this comment! I wish more parents were thinking this way!
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Feb 18, 2011 13:29:21 GMT -5
understand signing quickly because it's convenient for you to do so, but you still take responsibility for what you signed. They're equally responsible for the fact that there is $500 in the college fund with no necessity that he contribute more. All things must be weighed. Convenience of signing quickly vs getting a bad deal for you and your son. If it was worth it to her then she made the right call. She doesn't get absolved of responsibility just because she'd prefer to blame others though
Umm- just where did I say she wasn't taking resposiblity for signing the papers or blaming him. I mearly stated what the agreement was and asking the question of whether it was felt it was stealing.
And to answer your questions- yes he told child one of the money and how much good it was going to do for college. And yes, the child is old enough to know what happened and what Dad did.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 18, 2011 14:38:16 GMT -5
Thumbs up for this comment! I wish more parents were thinking this way!
;D Thanks. It's a strong opinion of mine, mostly because a lot of things would have been different for me if I had spent the first 20 years of my life learning to take responsibility for my choices and figuring out what was best for me instead of trying to please my parents. I should like to teach my children that lesson quite a bit earlier than I learned it myself.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Feb 18, 2011 15:40:56 GMT -5
I think it depends. If you kept the existence of the account quiet, then I agree. It is a different story IMO if you told the kid, and already promised this support. Then it's not as ok I think.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 18, 2011 20:11:00 GMT -5
I don't think it was bitchy, Daphne... I am extremely impressed with the way you've handled this feedback and with your commitment to fixing things with your daughter.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 18, 2011 20:18:14 GMT -5
DD knew the amount in the college fund because her dear father told her.
Daphne, sorry, that s.ucks. But he could have only done that if you had told him. Why would you have shared that info with him?!
I have money for college for my two younger kids set aside too. (I was very lucky, my ex and his parents gave my two older kids a free ride.)
But the two younger kids don't know how much is available, because I don't even know how much is available. Since my finances are in flux rather than stable, so is their money for college. So all they know is, if you do well in school, we will help you.
DD is a senior in HS. This year I told her, we will pay for the best school you get into. She didn't get it, given that we're always saying we can't afford this and we can't afford that. BUT, it is only because we have always said "we can't afford this and we can't afford that" that we can now tell her go to the best school you can. (caveat I'm in Europe and the most expensive school she is looking at is 12K per year for three years). We can also say that because she wants to live at home (not because of us LOL).
Which is a very different thing than giving a precise amount and then having that amount disappear into thin air your senior year of HS.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 20:21:39 GMT -5
DD knew the amount in the college fund because her dear father told her.
Daphne, sorry, that s.ucks. But he could have only done that if you had told him. I have money for college for my kids set aside too. They don't know how much because I don't even know how much. Since my finances are in flux, so is money for college. So all they know is, if you do well in school, we will help you. DD is a senior in HS, I have told her, we will pay for any school you want. She doesn't really get that, given that we're always saying we can't afford this and we can't afford that. BUT, it is only because we have always said that that we can tell her go anywhere you want (caveat I'm in Europe and the most expensive school she is looking at is 12K per year for three years). We also say that because she wants to live at home (not because of us LOL). Which is a very different thing than giving a precise amount and then having that amount disappear into thin air your senior year of HS. Um she didn't tell him because she wanted to. In the very next sentence she said it was part of him taking her back to court.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 18, 2011 20:27:29 GMT -5
Sorry Pooks, my bad. I'm guessing (not sure) that that could have been avoided if it had just been "savings" rather than earmarked for college.
Daphne, I too admire you for the grace with which you have dealt with the posts. Best to you and your DD.
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998fbird
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Post by 998fbird on Feb 19, 2011 11:44:40 GMT -5
IMO as a parent you don't owe you kids higher education, although if you can afford to help them it is a good thing. However personal experience has taught me that if you are saving money for your kids for post secondary education or if there is some type of investment that it is better NOT to tell the youngster. That way no expectation has been created and if you get into a situation where you must use the money no resentment is created by not fulfilling the expectation.
But using your DS' education fund to give your new husband a dream house is just plain stupid. But how many times have the posts on the boards about mixing money and 'love' gone to 10 pages or more...many a work day I've enjoyed the posts as my form of soap opera.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Feb 19, 2011 21:13:16 GMT -5
my g-ma use to do nickel savings (I think the kids brought a nickel a week to school and it went into a savings statement acct) My Great Grandfather took all the money at one point to feed the family. My grandmother has never forgotten that. I think he truly needed the funds to put food on the table but he never repaid it and I think it left a permanent scar so think about what you do to your children if you take what is "their" money regardless of where it came from.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2011 16:02:49 GMT -5
;D Thanks. It's a strong opinion of mine, mostly because a lot of things would have been different for me if I had spent the first 20 years of my life learning to take responsibility for my choices and figuring out what was best for me instead of trying to please my parents. I should like to teach my children that lesson quite a bit earlier than I learned it myself. [/quote]
I am sure that when your kids are grown they will be second guessing and disparaging your parenting choices as well. Unfortunately - they will probably be doing so behind the deep fryer of a fast food place or from the attendant booth at the parking garage. Though I realize there are many jobs that don't require additonal training/education - there are much better chances statistically that workers who have training beyond high school have more successful careers.
Sadly - if you don't care if your children improve themselves it is unlikely they will care either.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Feb 20, 2011 19:59:39 GMT -5
I thought it was 'her' dream house.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 22, 2011 11:52:01 GMT -5
Sadly - if you don't care if your children improve themselves it is unlikely they will care either.
Show me where I said I didn't care? I don't care if my kids go to college, that's true, but that's a far cry from not caring if they improve themselves or have a worthwhile life. About the latter, I very much care.
A lot of people hear "I don't care if my kids go to college" exactly the way you did. They miss the deeper meaning behind that statement, which is "I refuse to control the lives of my children by making them believe (inaccurately) that only one choice for their future is acceptable."
By the way, at 20 I was making more money than all of my friends with degrees except one. And I certainly wasn't behind the counter of a fast food restaurant (I did that two years later, when I went back to college ;D). Leaving school was the best decision I ever made for myself.
Not caring if my kids go to college or not =/= not caring about my kids' futures.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 22, 2011 18:42:37 GMT -5
DD knew the amount in the college fund because her dear father told her.
Daphne, sorry, that s.ucks. But he could have only done that if you had told him. I have money for college for my kids set aside too. They don't know how much because I don't even know how much. Since my finances are in flux, so is money for college. So all they know is, if you do well in school, we will help you. DD is a senior in HS, I have told her, we will pay for any school you want. She doesn't really get that, given that we're always saying we can't afford this and we can't afford that. BUT, it is only because we have always said that that we can tell her go anywhere you want (caveat I'm in Europe and the most expensive school she is looking at is 12K per year for three years). We also say that because she wants to live at home (not because of us LOL). Which is a very different thing than giving a precise amount and then having that amount disappear into thin air your senior year of HS. Um she didn't tell him because she wanted to. In the very next sentence she said it was part of him taking her back to court. So she had a savings account. She doesn't need to label that savings account "college fund for daughter" unless she chooses to. Particularly if she's not going to use it as a college fund. She could just as easily have said "this $40K is a downpayment on a new house". My guess is she didn't do it because "it's my daughter's college fund" looks a lot better than "this is money I'm just going to spend" on paper when you're going to court with an ex over your child.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 22, 2011 18:46:14 GMT -5
"Sadly - if you don't care if your children improve themselves it is unlikely they will care either. "
Sadly-some people still continue to believe in the myth that the only way to improve yourself is to go to college.
I only want my children going to an Ivy League school. Obviously anyone who thinks otherwise must not care about their child improving themself...everyone knows the Ivy League is the only way to improvement right?
People who really "care" if their kid goes to college are precisely the ones who have kids going to college and hanging out for 4 years without learning anything because it was simply important to their parents that they go and get a piece of paper indicating they "went".
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 22, 2011 18:54:24 GMT -5
She could just as easily have said "this $40K is a downpayment on a new house". Agreed, Hoops. She could have. But she didn't. She told her DD that she was contributing 40K for her college funds, then retracted that. THAT is the issue here with most people. My DD is currrently a senior in HS. I have to admit we sighed in relief when she announced she didn't want to go away to school because she wanted to stay at home near her BF and her BFF (and for other reasons too). So, we told her if you want to live at home, we will pay for the best hospitality school you get into. (Her chosen field). BUT, we never set a dollar (euro?) amount. I think that is the key here. We have ALWAYS told her we would "help her" for college but we never assigned an amount to that "help". Hoops, if this is for me, fair enough. But if it's for Daphne, I think she has more than "gotten it". ETA: Hoops are you trying to say she did it intentionally? In that case, I really don't think so. I think her DH was probably freaking out and it was easier to use her DD's college money than to confront him about taking out a loan. I also feel badly about rehashing this ... I feel that "enough is enough" here and would not have reposted on this had you not cited me directly. Feel free to PM me but I don't want Daphne to have to rehash this. Hope you understand.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 22, 2011 19:04:09 GMT -5
She could just as easily have said "this $40K is a downpayment on a new house".
Agreed, Hoops. She could have. But she didn't. She told her DD that she was contributing 40K for her college funds, then retracted that. THAT is the issue here with most people.
She didn't tell her DD that apparently. THe ex did, because she listed it on some financial form when they went back to court. That was my point, you can't blame the ex for "telling" if you're trying to use the account in your favor in court.
It's not really for anyone in particular, just kind of in general for the people pointing out that the ex told the daughter, not daphne. I just don't think you can really blame the ex for telling the daughter. Her telling her daughter, or the ex telling the daughter I think is kind of irrelevant only because she made it a point to earmark that money as "college money for daughter" in a court case with the ex.
I'm not saying she did it intentionally. I don't think for a minute that at the time of the court case that she had any intention of using that money for anything other than college. But I think at the time you decide to list that on court papers, that's kind of the time you're "telling" your daughter about it, even if you aren't actually saying it. (kind of back to the argument some people have about it being hers once you "gift it to her". IMO the point that you're willing ot put it on legal documents that it's her college money, that's enough from a moral perspective to say it's hers).
I think daphne gets it too, nothing I say in this thread is really about her personally anyways. It's more of a "case study" imo, with her situation as the hypothetical to be discussed.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 22, 2011 19:04:29 GMT -5
She could just as easily have said "this $40K is a downpayment on a new house".
Agreed, Hoops. She could have. But she didn't. She told her DD that she was contributing 40K for her college funds, then retracted that. THAT is the issue here with most people.
She didn't tell her DD that apparently. THe ex did, because she listed it on some financial form when they went back to court. That was my point, you can't blame the ex for "telling" if you're trying to use the account in your favor in court.
It's not really for anyone in particular, just kind of in general for the people pointing out that the ex told the daughter, not daphne. I just don't think you can really blame the ex for telling the daughter. Her telling her daughter, or the ex telling the daughter I think is kind of irrelevant only because she made it a point to earmark that money as "college money for daughter" in a court case with the ex.
I'm not saying she did it intentionally. I don't think for a minute that at the time of the court case that she had any intention of using that money for anything other than college. But I think at the time you decide to list that on court papers, that's kind of the time you're "telling" your daughter about it, even if you aren't actually saying it. (kind of back to the argument some people have about it being hers once you "gift it to her". IMO the point that you're willing ot put it on legal documents that it's her college money, that's enough from a moral perspective to say it's hers).
I think daphne gets it too, nothing I say in this thread is really about her personally anyways. It's more of a "case study" imo, with her situation as the hypothetical to be discussed.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 22, 2011 19:17:40 GMT -5
She didn't tell her DD that apparently. The ex did, because she listed it on some financial form when they went back to court. That was my point, you can't blame the ex for "telling" if you're trying to use the account in your favor in court.
Hoops, my bad (for the second time!) The fact that the ex got the info from the court docs was indeed already pointed out to me by somebody else (Pooks). I didn't realize that was your point (it's late here LOL).
I totally agree, you can't blame the ex for that.
ETA: I have to admit, this thread has definitely made me think twice about what we divulge to our younger two kids about their college funds. I have never been very specific, I have always used the term "help" but our DS3 (12) is all about numbers. (DH couldn't be specific if he wanted to LOL.) DS3 is always asking for a number for this and a number for that.
Looks like I'd better nip that in the bud now, as far as college is concerned LOL.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 22, 2011 19:27:59 GMT -5
People who really "care" if their kid goes to college are precisely the ones who have kids going to college and hanging out for 4 years without learning anything because it was simply important to their parents that they go and get a piece of paper indicating they "went".
Precisely. The above is a perfect description of me for the first two years I attended college. It wasn't until I decided to get my own dreams and stop living my parents', quit school to go work in New York, and decided two years later to come back on my own terms that I thrived in (and loved) college.
It didn't work for me until I went for my own reasons. Good grades, good social life - everything was dandy from an outsider's perspective. But I was one miserable kid because I wasn't making my own choices, and nothing else about my life changed until that did.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 14:32:35 GMT -5
By the way, at 20 I was making more money than all of my friends with degrees except one.
Just out of curiousity - what job were you doing that allowed you as a HS graduate 20 year old that put you so far ahead of people with 4 year degree? I don't mean this as argumentative - I'm just really curious.
Leaving school was the best decision I ever made for myself.
But just because that is the best decision for you doesn't mean that it is the best decision for everyone or even for a majority - look at the earnings figures for college grads vs high school grads. That being said - the major benefits provided by college to me are not economic - but rather the experience and worlds that are opened up to many that they may not have encountered otherwise.
And though I agree college is not for everyone - it is in our society today a serious boost up in the job market. Certainly not a silver bullet and not a guarantee - but in my business (financial services and insurance) you couldn't get in the door to apply for any managerial, non- clerical job without your degree.
Not caring if my kids go to college or not =/= not caring about my kids' futures.
Happy to hear that. But I am just curious - what and how are you providing guidance for their future?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 23, 2011 14:51:29 GMT -5
Just out of curiousity - what job were you doing that allowed you as a HS graduate 20 year old that put you so far ahead of people with 4 year degree? I don't mean this as argumentative - I'm just really curious.
I was an executive assistant, and I'm the first to admit that I was lucky to land that job with very little experience and no degree - usually both are required. But I was fortunate to find a great company run by wonderful guys who I still consider good friends and were willing to look past my age and inexperience. I made $45-50k - my five closest friends with degrees working in the same area topped out at about $40k at the time (like I said, there was one exception - I think he made $55k back then).
But just because that is the best decision for you doesn't mean that it is the best decision for everyone or even for a majority - look at the earnings figures for college grads vs high school grads. That being said - the major benefits provided by college to me are not economic - but rather the experience and worlds that are opened up to many that they may not have encountered otherwise.
I agree that for many people, college is a good decision. And certainly my experience was not what anyone would call typical, so it doesn't really matter for the purposes of generalizing about college.
However, I personally know a handful of kids who went to "the best school they could get into" for a teaching degree and wound up $100k in debt working for $35k a year because they listened to Mom and Dad. Sure, they may make it up over time but they're certainly struggling from where I'm sitting today.
I will also concede that for many kids, college is their ticket out of a small-minded environment, which is unquestionably a Good Thing. (Again, for me it was LEAVING college that provided that experience, but that's not the way it works for most people.) I really can't argue with anything that broadens one's worldview, and for a lot of 18 year olds, that means college.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 23, 2011 15:13:32 GMT -5
Happy to hear that. But I am just curious - what and how are you providing guidance for their future?
I don't have kids yet so this is hypothetical ;D But I do plan to set aside money for them. It'll be more of a trust fund than a college fund, and when they get it depends on how they plan to use it. For example, I wouldn't be opposed to giving them some or all of the money to buy their first investment property if they decided to pass on college.
And, it's not that I plan to discourage college. Believe me, I'm glad I went back (and I've already made more than enough to cover my out-of-pocket cost, so for me it has paid for itself barely a year later). I just don't plan to present it as "COLLEGE OR BURGER KING, KIDDO." I also plan to make sure they have a solid, well-planned approach to the financial aspect. I do NOT want to see my kids buried by loans the day they graduate, particularly if they get unmarketable degrees.
And I will certainly encourage them to get marketable degrees to circumvent some of that. My kid wants to be an artist? I will soundly encourage her to get a business degree, because that will be useful to her as an artist and it provides so many more fallback options than an art degree if her art career doesn't pan out.
So it's not that I'm against college by any means. I'm just against this ridiculous rhetoric that it's the only way to be a success in life, and I'm definitely against this idea that you should do anything to get there and pay whatever you have to because "it's an investment." Well, sure it is. But like any investment, you can choose poorly and wind up losing money. Only with college, a bad investment doesn't just cost you money - it also costs you precious time, which is worth much more IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 0:26:10 GMT -5
Firebird - Thanks so much for the clarification. I agree with you that college is not a magic bullet and graduating with a bunch of debt is certainly crippling. And having been the owner of (albeit years before the current economy and job market) an unmarketable degree it is not pleasant.
I realize being of another generation and time, my experiences are not necessarily applicable to today's situation. But college was probably the greatest gift I was ever given. Being the smartest kid in a small town and going to a big university was the biggest eye opener in the world. I remember telling a teaching assistant my freshman year that I didn't get "C"s. What an arrogant little puke I was. They kicked that out of me in one semester.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 24, 2011 11:04:32 GMT -5
I realize being of another generation and time, my experiences are not necessarily applicable to today's situation. But college was probably the greatest gift I was ever given. Being the smartest kid in a small town and going to a big university was the biggest eye opener in the world. I remember telling a teaching assistant my freshman year that I didn't get "C"s. What an arrogant little puke I was. They kicked that out of me in one semester.
O&C, I understand where you're coming from too. It's the same place my parents were coming from, and I can't fault them for wanting the great experience for me that college was for them. Neither they nor I had any way of knowing how much college would suck for me the first time around (if anything, I was chomping at the bit to get to college and out of my own town, a suburban deathtrap of beige if you will).
My mom, notably, WAS discouraged from going to college by her family. And, as with you, it was her ticket out of an incredibly small-minded, ill-educated environment that it still depresses me to visit. It was the only way she would ever be able to get out.
But I appreciate your concession that times have changed. It really scares me (and even pisses me off a little) that kids are encouraged to take on heavy debt just so they can go to Yale and study English. I wouldn't go so far as to say it would be better not to go to college at all, but certainly if one plans to be an English major and has the discipline and intellect to get into Yale, it is a much better financial decision to study their subject at a major state school. They'll still do fine and they won't be crippling themselves financially.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 24, 2011 11:12:04 GMT -5
I think that is where a lot of parents including my DF went wrong. Both he and I went to state schools and majored in fields that would get us jobs when we graduated. Both of my children did the same and their funds were TIED to that goal. No way were either of them going to major in crap on my nickel. DF's DD went to a fancy expensive no-name school and majored in nothing but lucked out and actually got a job 10 months after graduation. If she had at least gone to a NAME school that could have justified that ridiculous tuition, maybe she'd have gotten a job earlier. A friend of mine's daughter wanted to be a teacher. Low paying and hard work so she lived at home and gotr the free tuition that the state offers to B or better students. No fancy college "experience" for her. NO horrendous school loans or money out of her parents for that career path. She got paid the same amount of money as those who spent a lot of money on their degrees.
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