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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 8:59:53 GMT -5
I remember a couple of months back a lady wrote on the board how her husband was a financial wreck and how he used money that they have set aside in a trust for their kids. They said he was a thief.
On another thread, they are bashing a mother for using her daughter's college fund that the mother has put aside. Again, they say she stole for her daughter.
Call me crazy or retarded but that is not true. Life happens, you make plans for the money and guess what... did not go as plan. I am putting aside money to buy a new car cash when the times comes; but if something urgent arises and I need to use that cash: TOUGH LUCK!
If it is money given to your child by grandparents/uncles/aunts/godparents/and other loving relatives, and you use it without putting it back than yes that is stealing from your child.
But if you are the one saving the money with the intent of paying for college with it and end up using it for something else: that is not stealing. Until you gift that money to your child, it is still yours.
I do plan to start saving to pay for my kids college (at least partially pay for it) and guess what: if 15 years down the road I need to use that money, I will not feel guilty one bit.
One thing I know for sure: from the moment they can understand it I will let my kids know that mommy and daddy has no money saved for college and no plans on paying for college; so please decide wisely.
If like their mommy they want to go to a super expensive school, it will cost them at the end $700/month and they will still be paying it 30 years down the road and will costs them ~ $140,000 in interests (yes after it is all said and done my wife education will costs us close to 250K)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 9:04:30 GMT -5
A trust is a legal document which states how someone wants their money spent. If the trustee does not spend the money according to the trust documents then it is theft.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 18, 2011 9:09:39 GMT -5
You can have a revocable trust, so that won't be an issue
I don't remember a thread about a guy, but with the woman it was a about the fact that she PROMISED money to the DD. And if that was the case and she really needed the money for life emergencies, there was a better way to handle the situation that just take it and tell DD you are now SOL. And building your "dream" house is not a life emergency.
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 9:15:22 GMT -5
A trust is a legal document which states how someone wants their money spent. If the trustee does not spend the money according to the trust documents then it is theft. Not if the parents were the ones that set up the trust / revocable trust.
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misspt
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Post by misspt on Feb 18, 2011 9:17:53 GMT -5
ITA with what Archie said about the Trust. In regard to the other thread about the daughter's college money. The daughter was told there was money for college, but then the money was used for a want not a need, and the daughter witnessed that. Plus, on the other thread there appeared to be a lot of using this money to placate the OPs current husband (the daughter's stepdad), who can't "handle" borrowing. And I know, the OP stated that only she is responsible for taking the money to finish the house, but when reading all her responses, it really seemed she robbed Peter (her daughter) to pay Paul (the stressed out stepdad) for a want, "the dream house". I have money saved for my children's college education, but they don't know that and I am not going to tell them. I want them to work for good grades for scholarships and I will supplement what they need. IF any emergency arises, and I NEED the money I will think about using it, but it will be for a need.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 9:19:13 GMT -5
You can have a revocable trust, so that won't be an issue I don't remember a thread about a guy, but with the woman it was a about the fact that she PROMISED money to the DD. And if that was the case and she really needed the money for life emergencies, there was a better way to handle the situation that just take it and tell DD you are now SOL. And building your "dream" house is not a life emergency. Lena I feel that the only mistake she made was just that: promising her child to pay for college. And that is the lesson I am taking out of it; I am making no such promises in the future. As for the house, it may not have been an emergency, but she saw it as an opportunity. And like I said: it was her money!
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Post by justwhoever on Feb 18, 2011 9:19:43 GMT -5
The title reminded me of what someone I knew/know use to tell her step-kids. If they went to the kitchen and got food when it was not a meal time...she told/yelled at them for stealing food from her and their dad. I was happy when she left, for the kids but it still didn't help. Those kids are young adults now(the boy is over 18) and let me tell ya they are f-ed up beyond repair.
Having money earmarked for something and then having life happen, good bad or indifferent, and using that money doesn't mean it was stolen.
Walking into your kids bedroom and breaking their little tin safe and taking the money out IS stealing. Opening up their bday cards from grandparents who live far away and taking the money out before they see it...IS stealing.
But is washing clothes and finding that $1 bill in the washer or dryer and putting it in your own pocket stealing? Everyone's clothes are in the wash...so knowing who's pocket it came out of is not possible to know...so does that count?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 18, 2011 9:26:25 GMT -5
"I do plan to start saving to pay for my kids college (at least partially pay for it) and guess what: if 15 years down the road I need to use that money, I will not feel guilty one bit. "
This is a lot different than "I took the money saved up for my kids to spend on my own unnecessary wants and won't tell my child that the money I'd been promising won't be available until the last minute".
"One thing I know for sure: from the moment they can understand it I will let my kids know that mommy and daddy has no money saved for college and no plans on paying for college; so please decide wisely. "
I don't think there's anything wrong with this. There's something wrong with telling your child there is money and creating that expectation when the reality is that money is no longer there.
"If it is money given to your child by grandparents/uncles/aunts/godparents/and other loving relatives, and you use it without putting it back than yes that is stealing from your child."
Technically speaking this usually isn't stealing either, as the assets of the child technically belong to the parents in most cases.
"But if you are the one saving the money with the intent of paying for college with it and end up using it for something else: that is not stealing. Until you gift that money to your child, it is still yours."
I see no real difference between other people giving your child gifts which are still technically the property of the parents, and parents telling their child "this money is yours for X purpose". Both situations the assets technically belong to the parents anyways. When you tell your child "I'm putting this money into a trust FOR YOU" or "This is money FOR YOU for college", how is that any different than if Grandma gives you money for college and mom takes it? There's no difference in those gifts vs gifts given by others. Both technically belong to the parents in almost all cases. It's absolutely no different than if Grandma gives Junior $10,000 and mom takes it to buy herself a new car. It was likely all mom's money anyways legally speaking.
How would you feel about a scenario where Grandma gives Mother $40,000 and says "this is for Junior's college" and mom spends it on a house? Is that different than Mother saying "Junior this $40,000 I have saved is for your college" and then spending it on a house?
I think some of the issue is the issue of "stealing" and whether people are using it in the legal sense, or the moral/ethical sense. That's one of the issues I always run into in some of these discussions.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 18, 2011 9:27:53 GMT -5
A trust is a legal document which states how someone wants their money spent. If the trustee does not spend the money according to the trust documents then it is theft. Not if the parents were the ones that set up the trust / revocable trust. Yes, it absolutely is. The ones who set up a revocable trust might revoke the trust. But they cannot act as trustees and spend the money contrary to the trust documents.
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greenstone
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Post by greenstone on Feb 18, 2011 9:53:34 GMT -5
In the case of the mother spending her daughter's college fund, most posters prefaced their comments by stating the mother had the legal right to spend the money as she saw fit. The issue is that most people, myself included, believe it to be morally wrong. As the saying goes "A (wo)man is only as good as his/her word." Once she told the daughter there was money set aside for her college expenses, then the mother should have kept her fingers out of the pot. Reading that thread I did wonder why to mother thought her daughter needed to know the exact dollar amount. Parents should teach their children about finances but they don't have to open up their own books completely. There is a happy medium between full disclosure and saying "We (your parents) won't be paying anything for your college education." Telling your kids that you would like to contribute some, not all, if you're in financial position to do so at the time would create a lot of goodwill between you and your children.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 18, 2011 10:01:20 GMT -5
On another thread, they are bashing a mother for using her daughter's college fund that the mother has put aside.
I guess I view it as she took that money because she decided she wanted a dream home. Her dream home was more important than her promise to her daughter AND on top of that because of how things panned out due to her husband's mental issues and the biological father she can't even pay the money back like she promised.
I think it'd be one thing if they were struggling and took the money to pay bills. It's another to take money you promised someone and spend it on a want that even after you spent the money are in trouble.
Same with the guy who spent the trusts. It's one thing to take a risk, it's another to take trust fund money to spend on every ponzi scheme that comes your way (at lesat that is how I interpreted it when she said he invests in get rich quick venues).
I know this is YM and it is all about money and the fact that is YOUR money, but what happened to wanting the respect of your children/spouse?
Personally I find it a slippery slope to say "It's MY money, I can do whatever I want with it" when it has been promised to someone else.
We're saving for DD's college. If she doesn't intend to go or doesn't honor her commitments yeah I have no problem taking the money back. I also have no problems if we NEED the money to take it because college has other ways it can be paid for.
That being said personalyl I could never live with myself if I took it to invest in get rich quick schemes or took it because I decided I wanted a bigger house.
Personally if I can't save for both then I am not raiding her college fund for it. I'll stop putting money in so I can boost the savings for other things, but I am not going to raid it.
I knew my entire life my grandmother had money set aside for me for school and I never picked a super expensive school to major in underwater basket weaving. I understood it was a GIFT,but a gift that came with expectations and strings.
I honored those strings.
I am not going to hide I am saving for college, but there will be strings attached with that money and if she chooses not to accept the strings I have no problems taking the money back.
In that way I do see it as MY money. But far as taking what I have saved for her to buy myself a bigger house because I happened to have the opportunity? No. I don't consider it my money to spend on wants.
If that is the case why the hell am I saving for college in the first place? Just put it all in the wants or general savings pool and if there is anything left over, spend it on college.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 10:16:07 GMT -5
I agree. You can't steal your own money. Just because you made plans for it doesn't mean it will turn out that way. Life happens. I agree 100%. But if you put it into a trust it is no longer your money.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 18, 2011 10:50:19 GMT -5
The lesson I took away from the "Daughter's College" thread is that, if you ARE saving for their college fund, it'd be wise not to make explicit promises. I am saving for my grandkids college - and I've told them so. I want them to understand how important it is. But I have not given them any specific amounts and I've stated that my plan is to "help" them with college, not pay for it in full. (I've also told them that it's for their education and if they don't go to college, then I'm going to take a nice trip with the money )
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 18, 2011 10:55:22 GMT -5
I'm also surprised by the number of posters who say they don't plan on paying for anything or plan to tell their kids they're not planning on paying for anything. The number 1 incentive for my academic and sports achievement was my parents telling me very early on they would help me out in college if I made good grades and stayed out of trouble.
I ended up getting into several strong universities as a result. Even though my parents planned on paying for college, I chose a reputable and well known state school that was only $2k/semester. I worked in high school and college so that my parents wouldn't have to carry the full financial burden, but they were very generous and I appreciate it to this day.
If my parents had told me from the get go that I would be on my own for college, I probably would have barely taken school seriously, skipped classes, prioritized partying and planned on just getting a job after senior year. I likely would still need to rely on my parents for financial support. My life would be completely different if they hadn't set me up for success.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 18, 2011 11:03:22 GMT -5
Gooddecisions,
The other way to look at it is that some people want their kids to go to college because that's really what they want to do, rather than going simply because it's something free.
Essentially what your parents did was bribe you to get good grades and stay out of trouble, not everyone believes in bribing their kids to do things they should be doing anyways. I don't really have a problem with it, the whole ends justifying the means thing...but some people obviously do and I can understand why.
"I probably would have barely taken school seriously, skipped classes, prioritized partying and planned on just getting a job after senior year. I likely would still need to rely on my parents for financial support."
So then at the purest form of "you", you didn't value education or your future...i think most of us seek to inspire more than that from our kids.
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Urban Chicago
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Post by Urban Chicago on Feb 18, 2011 11:05:25 GMT -5
I wonder how the poster of the "Daughter in college" thread would feel if her Ex did the same thing she did, i.e. promised DD college money, spent in on something else that wasn't an emergency but went to directly benefit a new spouse, and then didn't fess up to the DD immediately so she could make other plans.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 18, 2011 11:15:12 GMT -5
On another thread, they are bashing a mother for using her daughter's college fund that the mother has put aside. Again, they say she stole for her daughter.
Nobody's bashing anyone. That mother agrees that her actions were wrong. In fact, she continues to thank us for helping her see that.
I just posted a question for one of the posters who keeps insisting that she didn't do anything wrong, and I'll ask that same question of you now: Do you consider all of your kids' possessions to be yours? If you decide that you want one of their toys because it's an antique and you can sell it on Ebay for a thousand bucks, are you entitled to take that toy away from them?
Or, perhaps more relevantly, do you feel entitled to swipe your kids' piggy bank if you need beer money, since it's just money that they saved from their allowance which is technically "your" money anyway?
At what point does your kids' money (which was once your money in some form or another) actually become theirs? Does something only belong to them if they earned it themselves?
I think that's the REAL question for parents (or potential parents-- I just spotted your other thread ;D) to work out. The answer may be different for everyone, but at least do your child the courtesy of figuring it out in advance so that you can be consistent. Either you own everything they have, or at some point "their" stuff actually becomes theirs.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 18, 2011 11:20:10 GMT -5
We save for college in 529 plans. One can take money out of a 529 account, but that's like taking money out of a retirement account. So, the likely hood of the money getting spent on a car or house, well, is minimal.
My kids also have normal savings accounts. I wouldn't take money out of their accounts though, to make up for mistakes I made. I'm sure this would go over real well with my kids "Oh sorry, children, I made poor financial decisions. You have to pay for it, too bad, so sad! I didn't act like an adult, but I expect as a child you'll take it like an adult!"
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 18, 2011 11:22:08 GMT -5
Gooddecisions, The other way to look at it is that some people want their kids to go to college because that's really what they want to do, rather than going simply because it's something free. Essentially what your parents did was bribe you to get good grades and stay out of trouble, not everyone believes in bribing their kids to do things they should be doing anyways. I don't really have a problem with it, the whole ends justifying the means thing...but some people obviously do and I can understand why. "I probably would have barely taken school seriously, skipped classes, prioritized partying and planned on just getting a job after senior year. I likely would still need to rely on my parents for financial support." So then at the purest form of "you", you didn't value education or your future...i think most of us seek to inspire more than that from our kids. Harsh but true. Personally, I couldn't care less if my kids go to college or not. My aim is to equip them to make their own choices about their futures, not to direct those futures to look a certain way. College isn't for everyone, and if they decide that it's for them then they need to do what it takes to make that happen. If they decide it's not for them then they need to live with the consequences.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 18, 2011 11:22:37 GMT -5
I wonder how the poster of the "Daughter in college" thread would feel if her Ex did the same thing she did, i.e. promised DD college money, spent in on something else that wasn't an emergency but went to directly benefit a new spouse, and then didn't fess up to the DD immediately so she could make other plans. Douchecanoe x 2? ;D
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 18, 2011 11:29:18 GMT -5
Here is MY, half-serious half-not answer: yes, everything is MINE MINE MINE, but if I told my kid he can have that last ice-cream in the freezer, even if I really really want it, I wouldn't take it.
Lena
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 18, 2011 11:31:40 GMT -5
I just posted a question for one of the posters who keeps insisting that she didn't do anything wrong, and I'll ask that same question of you now: Do you consider all of your kids' possessions to be yours? If you decide that you want one of their toys because it's an antique and you can sell it on Ebay for a thousand bucks, are you entitled to take that toy away from them? In most (if not all) states, legally, a child can own pretty much anything....cars, property, toys, etc. Parents still maintain parental rights over that (minor) child and his/her belongings. A child will lose control of his/her entertainment (tv, game console, whatever) as punishment. Even items such as clothes, which most people would agree belong to the child, are handed down to other siblings all the time, showing parents still maintain control despite the appearance of ownership by the child. Any savings with the parents name on it will be considered an asset of the parent though. Ownership questions may arise if the parents file for BK. Any real property owned by a minor would be examined very closely, but, for the most part, kids will not lose any of their "every day" items in the process. IMHO, it's still morally bankrupt to blow your kids savings on anything other than a true make or break emergency situation.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 18, 2011 11:34:34 GMT -5
And on a more serious note, my DH already told me that he doesn't want me to get rid of any of their toys. He wants wait for THEM to decide when they are old enough. I think that's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in my life, but evidently that's what happened to him and he was all sad. I can't stand the clutter and "stuff", so this should be interesting.
Lena
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 18, 2011 11:34:59 GMT -5
I see what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree with it. A lot of choices are made for kids and their path in life is determined by decisions made by their parents. Case in point, I wouldn't have gone to church if my parents hadn't put me in church, same for school, sports, music, etc. Kids have to be guided and don't necessarily understand the whys behind it at early age. It was around sixth grade when my parents started explaining the importance of college and the impact grades have on that possibility.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 18, 2011 11:40:45 GMT -5
~ $140,000 in interests (yes after it is all said and done my wife education will costs us close to 250K) Impressive, in what field is her education?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 18, 2011 11:49:06 GMT -5
"Kids have to be guided and don't necessarily understand the whys behind it at early age."
I agree, but I guess I wasn't taking what you wrote as from an early age perspective. I can't imagine you would have been skipping school, partying, and planning on getting a job after senior year at the "early age" mark. At that point you do stuff because your parents make you.
"Case in point, I wouldn't have gone to church if my parents hadn't put me in church"
To continue the comparison, I think a lot of kids had things this way, they were forced into it because they weren't old enough to make a decision. I don't think that most of us want our older children going because we're either forcing them to go to church or because we've bribed them with something if they do. Eventually we want them to go because they believe it's important, in the same way we want our kids to want to go strive to do well in school because they value education, and not because we've promised them a cushy 4 years at college if they do.
For the record, I dont' have a problem bribing kids to do stuff. I'm all for my kids getting A's just because I'm paying them as long as they're getting A's
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Feb 18, 2011 12:02:33 GMT -5
I have a friend who is in a similar situation. Her divorce agreements says the ex has to place money into a college account for their son, but does not specify an amount. He had about 10 k in there. Along comes baby number 2 with current wife. The ex decided to get "further education" and uses all but $500 dollars of the money. He quits school - because of time issues with new baby. He is now not putting anything away monthly stating that since the account is still open, he's fulfilling his obligation.
So you tell me- did he still from his first kid?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 18, 2011 12:10:12 GMT -5
"I have a friend who is in a similar situation. Her divorce agreements says the ex has to place money into a college account for their son, but does not specify an amount."
Without seeing the divorce agreement somehow I doubt this is true as written, or whoever suggested this clause doesn't really care about the kid's college.
"So you tell me- did he still from his first kid?"
Not enough detail to know. Did ex tell the son the $10K was his for college? What kind of account was it held in?
Just because I save up $100K thinking I'll use that to help my kid buy a house eventually doesn't mean I have even the slightest of ethical obligations to give it to him. Even if I open up a separate account to track the money separately...it DOES matter if I tell him the money is his to use for a house someday.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 18, 2011 12:20:37 GMT -5
I see what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree with it. A lot of choices are made for kids and their path in life is determined by decisions made by their parents. Case in point, I wouldn't have gone to church if my parents hadn't put me in church, same for school, sports, music, etc. Kids have to be guided and don't necessarily understand the whys behind it at early age. It was around sixth grade when my parents started explaining the importance of college and the impact grades have on that possibility.
That is precisely why I HATE IT when parents force their kids to go to church and get all these ideas into their head about evil and hell and punishment from big people who seem to know everything and have all the answers. But that's a whole different rant...
To a certain extent, yes, kids need to be told what to do. At a certain age, though (and I say the earlier the better) they need to be taught to take responsibility for their choices.
ETA: Hoops said it better. And for the record, parents SHOULD make their kids do x, y, and z-- at least for a little while, if only because hard work as a kid teaches good lessons about discipline, and because A's in school give more options at age 18.
I'm never going to say you shouldn't ever make a kid do anything they don't want to do. That's bad parenting. However, as soon as the kid is old enough to have some cognizance of the results of their decisions, they need to start making their own. They can start small, but they gotta start somewhere.
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kansasflower
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Post by kansasflower on Feb 18, 2011 12:24:35 GMT -5
From a financial standpoint, college savings from the parents, belong to the parents.
However, if they choose to spend the money on something other than their child's college, they risk losing their relationship with their kids. Most kids would understand if their parents spent the money on needs, but if parents choose to spend the money on wants, they should consider the "value" of the relationship with their kids.
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