justme
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Post by justme on Oct 22, 2013 10:53:23 GMT -5
As for every doctor having imagine devices...around me it's still limited to imaging companies for anything much beyond an X-ray machine - though I know several are co-owned by several doctors. It doesn't bother me that much though because I like having choice and getting in quick and getting the results quick. I wouldn't like a Dr telling me "It's probably nothing to worry about, but lets get you an MRI to make sure it's ok" and then wait weeks or longer to get the MRI done - that'd stress me the hell out not knowing. That is somewhat part of the issue, the Dr may tell you that in his opinion it is nothing, but offer the MRI, because it doesn't cost the patient anymore than the deductible. It cost the patient the deductible and the coinsurance - a lot of the plans through ACA have deductibles way higher than one MRI. People must have crappy doctors though, I've never had one push tests on me for "nothing". Most of the time it's the doctor telling me it's nothing, but I insist on a test because the problem isn't going away and the test often finds the problem...though I also then stop going to the doctor that doesn't take me seriously.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 10:53:26 GMT -5
OK, I will admit that I don't have all of the facts at my finger tips- nor unfortunately the time to find them, but this claim has been refuted, not least of which was by the SCOTUS. Plus, the bill passed- with all of the above provisions, in the US House of Representatives. It is constitutional. No. It was declared Constitutional as a tax. It still must pass Constitutional muster as a tax. This challenge has yet to be brought- but it will, and then it will be gone in its entirety. Obamacare will be defeated, and it will be a stain on the Democrats for eternity. We will never again come close to anything like it- let alone single payer. This battle will be won by the people. i have been saying the same thing about non-militia members having the right to own assault weapons for years.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Oct 22, 2013 11:06:55 GMT -5
No. It was declared Constitutional as a tax. It still must pass Constitutional muster as a tax. This challenge has yet to be brought- but it will, and then it will be gone in its entirety. Obamacare will be defeated, and it will be a stain on the Democrats for eternity. We will never again come close to anything like it- let alone single payer. This battle will be won by the people. i have been saying the same thing about non-militia members having the right to own assault weapons for years. If you are able body you are part of the militia.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Oct 22, 2013 11:08:47 GMT -5
That is somewhat part of the issue, the Dr may tell you that in his opinion it is nothing, but offer the MRI, because it doesn't cost the patient anymore than the deductible. It cost the patient the deductible and the coinsurance - a lot of the plans through ACA have deductibles way higher than one MRI. People must have crappy doctors though, I've never had one push tests on me for "nothing". Most of the time it's the doctor telling me it's nothing, but I insist on a test because the problem isn't going away and the test often finds the problem...though I also then stop going to the doctor that doesn't take me seriously. Depends on you plan, and I only pay 1 deductible while at the dr's office including blood work and other tests. There not crazy and there certainly not pushing tests for nothing, just nothing to the patient.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 11:16:11 GMT -5
i have been saying the same thing about non-militia members having the right to own assault weapons for years. If you are able body you are part of the militia. not unless you receive training, and are on call if needed. that is what Jefferson had in mind, anyway.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Oct 22, 2013 11:20:03 GMT -5
It is difficult to tell how much 3rd party payer is effecting the costs, something should be done to encourage the patient to make wise choices.
And if health care costs where spread fairly equally amongst the consumers getting rid of 3rd party payer would probably dramatically effect the cost and price and raise the quality. Unfortunately or fortunately I guess, the costs are concentrated is a very small group mostly elderly.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 22, 2013 11:23:59 GMT -5
It cost the patient the deductible and the coinsurance - a lot of the plans through ACA have deductibles way higher than one MRI. People must have crappy doctors though, I've never had one push tests on me for "nothing". Most of the time it's the doctor telling me it's nothing, but I insist on a test because the problem isn't going away and the test often finds the problem...though I also then stop going to the doctor that doesn't take me seriously. Depends on you plan, and I only pay 1 deductible while at the dr's office including blood work and other tests. There not crazy and there certainly not pushing tests for nothing, just nothing to the patient. Well yeah, but as I stated at least where I've lived the doctors don't have MRI or cat scans in their office so that would be handled differently and not under the doctor copay. I also know it depends on the plan, but I stated a lot of the plans I've heard/seen about that the ACA offers are more like HDHP.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 22, 2013 11:37:58 GMT -5
If you are able body you are part of the militia. not unless you receive training, and are on call if needed. that is what Jefferson had in mind, anyway. Yeah, that "well regulated" thingee.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 11:40:21 GMT -5
not unless you receive training, and are on call if needed. that is what Jefferson had in mind, anyway. Yeah, that "well regulated" thingee. yeah, that. it didn't say "for hobbyists". ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 12:28:00 GMT -5
Seems like the best thing the republicans could have done was stay out of the way and let it fail under its own weight. I think the best the could have done was also propose better ideas. I saw Jeb Bush mention this the other day. At least somebody is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 12:33:50 GMT -5
If everyone knew that it would raise the deficit by $100B/yr, don't you think it would have lost some votes? And don't you think if it included new taxes on everyone (not just the rich), that it would have lost some votes? Everyone who? A great deal of people seemed to think that it contained a death panel and it still passed. I really don't give much credence to what the general public knows or doesn't know anymore. Way too many people had opinions on the ACA without actually knowing any facts. Whether or not congress would have voted it through with addtional taxes, I have no idea. Since it wasn't bipartisan, then I could see it still getting through the dems when raising taxes. Wasn't there already an estimated deficit by the CBO before it passed? Or do I remember wrong? I don't know, but the point was that the law was structured knowing that the CBO uses ten year horizons for doing it's analyses. So the bill was structured such that deficits did not become apparent until beyond the 10yr window. So then when the analysis was done a couple years later, all of the sudden it showed deficits. Now, supposedly it doesn't show deficits, but as I mentioned, the bill mandates artificially low increases in cost which, just like Medicare/Medicaid, will be waived when the time comes. Since the bill was passed along party lines and just barely, if it were a bill that was going to add $100-200B/yr to the deficit, only a couple of Democrats or Independents would have had to have dropped their support.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 22, 2013 12:44:15 GMT -5
Here is a history of the CBO estimates. It really looks like the estimate hasn't changed much since it was passed in 2010. ![](http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/images/pubs-images/44xxx/44176-land-ACA.png) So unless I am missing something (which is always possible) it seems like they always knew there would be a deficit and it still passed.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 12:50:38 GMT -5
i think the idea was that the cost savings on MC would pay for it.
and, unfortunately, this is an idea that cannot be "proven" until it comes to pass or does NOT.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2013 12:53:49 GMT -5
How long until it's gone? ![](https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1378230_10202185444217375_582148076_n.jpg) (and yes, this is courtesy of The Onion- it's parody. Sort of. Software would be an upgrade from the 1-800 plus if you act now phone number) we still use floppies at work. they are useful for keeping CNC's isolated and storing programs. You're kidding. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif) You couldn't fit half this webpage on a single floppy disk.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 13:01:08 GMT -5
we still use floppies at work. they are useful for keeping CNC's isolated and storing programs. You're kidding. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif) You couldn't fit half this webpage on a single floppy disk. no, i am not. CNC programs are really small. you know what else is funny? a lot of the readers are using 486's. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 22, 2013 16:27:55 GMT -5
I did a quick search. It appears to me that Green Mountain Care is Vermont's new name for Medicaid. Washington changed theirs to Apple Health but it is their Medicaid program. That's not it- VT plans to be completely out of 'Obamacare' through a mostly single payer system. They actually wanted out earlier and were pursuing an early waiver- don't know where they are at. Won't be long before CA goes single payer either. That's the Obamacare catch- a state is free to come up with a better plan and obtain a waiver. So we are waiting TX and other red states- let's hear your better plan ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 16:47:16 GMT -5
I did a quick search. It appears to me that Green Mountain Care is Vermont's new name for Medicaid. Washington changed theirs to Apple Health but it is their Medicaid program. That's not it- VT plans to be completely out of 'Obamacare' through a mostly single payer system. They actually wanted out earlier and were pursuing an early waiver- don't know where they are at. Won't be long before CA goes single payer either. That's the Obamacare catch- a state is free to come up with a better plan and obtain a waiver. So we are waiting TX and other red states- let's hear your better plan ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) LOL!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2013 17:08:44 GMT -5
not unless you receive training, and are on call if needed. that is what Jefferson had in mind, anyway. Yeah, that "well regulated" thingee. The purpose of the Second Amendment is to arm people in order to prevent future tyranny. They need the tools to do this. The term "Well Regulated" in the Second Amendment meant "Well Manned and Equipped " in 1791 as was determined in the 1939 United States v. Miller case after referencing the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. The concept of Government Regulation, as we understand it today, did not exist at the time. United States v. Miller also determined that the term "Arms" refers to "Ordinary Military Weapons" (not crew operated). American Citizens have the right to Keep and Bear, which means Own and Carry, any weapons that a soldier carries into battle. That includes past, present and future weapons. A Militia consisted of armed volunteers willing to fight with their personal arms and not under government control. The 2008 Heller v. Washington DC decision reaffirmed that the Right to Bear Arms was an Individual right. The 2010 McDonald v. Chicago decision reaffirmed it yet again and made it clear that it applies to every state, every city and every town in the United States. To limit the Second Amendment to muskets would be the equivalent of limiting the First Amendment to writings in quill pens. Liberty is worth the risk of death! I wish I could find some historical reference to what you said about "state of freedom". That would shut the gun grabber up for once and for all. The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment: 1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations." 1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world." 1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial." 1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor." 1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding." 1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city." The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 17:20:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that "well regulated" thingee. The purpose of the Second Amendment is to arm people in order to prevent future tyranny. They need the tools to do this. The term "Well Regulated" in the Second Amendment meant "Well Manned and Equipped " in 1791 as was determined in the 1939 United States v. Miller case after referencing the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. The concept of Government Regulation, as we understand it today, did not exist at the time. United States v. Miller also determined that the term "Arms" refers to "Ordinary Military Weapons" (not crew operated). American Citizens have the right to Keep and Bear, which means Own and Carry, any weapons that a soldier carries into battle. That includes past, present and future weapons. A Militia consisted of armed volunteers willing to fight with their personal arms and not under government control. The 2008 Heller v. Washington DC decision reaffirmed that the Right to Bear Arms was an Individual right. The 2010 McDonald v. Chicago decision reaffirmed it yet again and made it clear that it applies to every state, every city and every town in the United States. To limit the Second Amendment to muskets would be the equivalent of limiting the First Amendment to writings in quill pens. Liberty is worth the risk of death! I wish I could find some historical reference to what you said about "state of freedom". That would shut the gun grabber up for once and for all. The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment: 1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations." 1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world." 1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial." 1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor." 1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding." 1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city." The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it. without reading this, let me guess: you completely ignored Jefferson's abhorrence of standing armies?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 22, 2013 17:23:03 GMT -5
... The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. ... And that "something" in this case is a militia. Any descriptors of what a militia was back in the day?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 17:40:56 GMT -5
... The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. ... And that "something" in this case is a militia. Any descriptors of what a militia was back in the day? guys shooting beer cans off fence posts on weekends.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 22, 2013 17:42:24 GMT -5
And that "something" in this case is a militia. Any descriptors of what a militia was back in the day? guys shooting beer cans off fence posts on weekends. whiskey bottles off the heads of federal revenuers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 19:49:04 GMT -5
Here is a history of the CBO estimates. It really looks like the estimate hasn't changed much since it was passed in 2010. ![](http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/images/pubs-images/44xxx/44176-land-ACA.png) So unless I am missing something (which is always possible) it seems like they always knew there would be a deficit and it still passed. I don't know. That's just the cost, not the revenue. And the cost is where they have to use artificially low escalation rates.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 22, 2013 20:21:40 GMT -5
Actually, no. Heller created an individual right. It did not reaffirm one. And even if Miller had in fact held that gun ownership was an individual right and not a collective one (which it didn't), it would only have been affirmed, not reaffirmed.
I am much more persuaded by Justice Stevens dissenting opinion. (It may not be clear but the word "opinion" is a link.)
(I tried to format that better but it wouldn't work. Sorry.)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 22, 2013 22:18:04 GMT -5
"Enrollee's Bank Accounts Can Be Easily Drained By Hackers" Do you have to give bank accounts to sign up for Obamacare?? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) As Virgil points out, hackers can go after any bank information you post on line as it is, Obamacare or any new website with bank info won't be immune. ever. And on easily, I doubt anyone really knows how easily unless they were the implementers or have tried already. My guess it is alarmist Fox stuff for ratings. Loved the Onion piece. If I was in a better mood I'd be laughing my ass off. 16 VGA colors LOL, mouse compatible O M Deity how funny is that! DJ, impressive you still have 486's in service. What year did those come out anyway? I remember 386's and 286's year-wise(I worked for AT&T), but 486 I think I tossed my 486 or Pentium PC out in 2000 when we(co-worker) and I couldn't get Linux to load on it. This was back when corporations did't want to embrace Linux because it was open source and Red Hat had limited support compared to Solaris(SUN), HP-UX(HP) and AIX(IBM). To name three. Now its popular in part because its cheap and there are 300 plus unique flavors and growing. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/zipit.png)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 22, 2013 22:32:41 GMT -5
I disagree. The purpose might have been to arm people to prevent future tyranny but in my opinion and many others it was added to the constituition to prevent standing armies.
Very little can be created that can be true for all situations that could not be comprehended when it was created. Also, since we do not have the original authors to quiz we can only interpret what we believe it means. Well regulated meant well-regulated. Not going to buy your explanation just because you typed it in. Bottom line is life and weapons have changed drastically from when the second amendment was passed. Gun owners do not generally got drafted into the army and definitely do not use their own weapons while fighting on foreign soil or even here in the US if it ever came to that again.
While it might be a big leap for those like you who believe it has always meant what you believe it to be today, there is a very good reason the Supreme Court has been appointed to interpret the Constituition including the second amendment. Not all courts are going to agree on the interpretations of the same words and the courts are influenced by the times they live in and their own biases. An example of a document that has been interpreted many different ways by many different groups of people. There are jews, catholics, lutherans, methodists, baptists, and even muslims that interpret certain passages passed on their own worldview and biases. Think of the old testament adomition(sp) on eating pork. Some jews and all muslims follow it. Very few Christian denominations do. That's just one thing and a simple one at that.
I agree with TG that the recent court decision created a right that previously did not explicitly exist. If you all defended the first amendment with the vigor you do your belief the constiution grants you the rights to guns the world would be a better place. (Bonus points if you can explain why you have a constitutional right to bear guns but not say cane swords, or nunchuks.)
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 22, 2013 22:34:41 GMT -5
How long until it's gone? McAfee Drops Obamacare mcafee sucks. they are such a joke, i can't believe anyone uses them. update- the CEO of this business is a serious loon. if he had anything to do with the "drop", i wouldn't read too much into it. Way beyond loon- Wired had an article on him a while back. Might have killed his neighbor in South America. I thought he was long gone as CEO?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2013 22:40:33 GMT -5
mcafee sucks. they are such a joke, i can't believe anyone uses them. update- the CEO of this business is a serious loon. if he had anything to do with the "drop", i wouldn't read too much into it. Way beyond loon- Wired had an article on him a while back. Might have killed his neighbor in South America. I thought he was long gone as CEO? i am reading more about him now. he is a wanted fugitive. the guy he (may have) murdered was a US citizen. but i guess that is all cool with Paul and the right wing nutbutter machine. he is just the spokesperson they want against ObamaCare. whew. i would not even take a picture of this guy- bragging about his wild sex life and drug use- he sounds like Charlie Sheen. but older.
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Post by Opti on Oct 22, 2013 22:43:21 GMT -5
Slightly OT, I listened to a speaker concerning healthcare job growth today at the local One Stop Career Center aka part of a NJ unemployment office. The presenter said she expects the PPACA law to drive adoption of standardized medical records probably by 2016.
One interesting factoid(to me anyway) is medical providers are required to keep medical records(paper) for 7 years unless it concerns a newborn which must be kept 21 years, i.e. until they reach adulthood. The presenter was obviously not an IT person because she initally actually said or implied strongly that medical records would be kept forever once they became electronic. Being a know at all PITA, I pointed out that in order to do so the records have to be transferred to the electronic medium of the day and hence it is likely the 7 year rule may remain. (7 years is standard for the pharma industry as well.)
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 22, 2013 23:07:58 GMT -5
Way beyond loon- Wired had an article on him a while back. Might have killed his neighbor in South America. I thought he was long gone as CEO? i am reading more about him now. he is a wanted fugitive. the guy he (may have) murdered was a US citizen. but i guess that is all cool with Paul and the right wing nutbutter machine. he is just the spokesperson they want against ObamaCare. whew. i would not even take a picture of this guy- bragging about his wild sex life and drug use- he sounds like Charlie Sheen. but older. Worse- there was a lot of crazy shit going on at his place- the article had pictures of one of his girlfriends/teenager- that was going to kill him at one point, he hired some lady to work in a 'lab' in his house, other madness. I doubt PBP looked into it- it was a calculation: Well known company allegedly shits on the healthcare act- good enough for the front page ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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