Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Nov 16, 2013 12:57:52 GMT -5
Why can't people just put forth their own view?
I'd love to hear how a program can expand coverage, improve quality, increase choice, preserve everyone's existing healthcare, change everyone's existing healthcare for the better, save money, and not compromise delivery. I'd love to hear how unicorns could sprout from cacti, but that won't happen either.
There are plenty of issues where people have different opinions and there may not be a "right" answer. If you say to me that you think provision of healthcare should be part of the social contract, I have a lot of sympathy for that view. Lobby for a constitutional amendment, make it part of the social contract, explain to people what it's going to mean. Give the average physician a $150,000 annual salary haircut, and explain to him that it's for the common good. Eradicate the insurance industry, and tell them that you'll offer federal money to retrain them so they can become the 19th and 20th applicants for jobs that are only turning away 17 applicants with more relevant industry experience right now. Explain to everybody who has longer wait times for less quality time with fewer doctors that this is a better system because it's fair and universal. Be honest about the fact that too many of us, the majority of us, have abused the healthcare system and got an unfairly cheap deal at the expense of the most vulnerable. Make that case.
Don't lie and lie and lie and lie about it. Don't lie about lying about it. Don't suborn others to your lie, and then throw them under the bus, and then lie about doing that. Don't lie to people about the available solutions to the mess you've made.
PPACA is fundamentally and profoundly flawed. Some of its flaws would definitely have been ironed out at conference, if it hadn't been bundled past that because Democrats knew it wouldn't survive conference. Some could definitely have been minimized by obtaining bipartisan buy-in - and yeah, that might have meant NOT DOING IT in 2010.
People will still die for lack of medical care after PPACA is fully implemented; this would have been the case even if it had been implemented as it was designed, because the design was flawed. Adverse selection will kill reform and necessitate a genuine revamp: but the way it has been done makes single payer a pipe dream for fringenuts to salivate over. There is no way that the government that acknowledges three years too late it has NO CLUE WHAT IT IS DOING is going to win the trust of the people to administer everybody's healthcare, cradle to grave; in this country particularly, a lot of people are really hostile to something they perceive as 'not paying their own way.' There is a low level of social trust in American society, compared to say France or Japan. The culture doesn't change because well-meaning Leftists wish it would, any more than healthcare reform magically inverts rational incentives by wishing them away.
I believe healthcare should be part of the social contract. I oppose Obamacare because it makes access to healthcare even more a province of the wealthy and well-connected than it is now; it puts barriers between people and their own care, and that's absolutely wrong.
What Obamacare should do, if implemented as designed, is make medical bankruptcy less likely to occur. It will make the out-of-pocket cost of healthcare greater, but not in a way that will drive market decisions, because it disempowers the purchasers of healthcare goods and services. It will not make people live longer or healthier; there are studies on record - one by RAND springs to mind - that show access to healthcare insurance does not materially impact healthcare outcomes. The same studies show other things that do, but PPACA doesn't address them since it was never about that. It wasn't about medical bankruptcy, either: it was about giving more people healthcare coverage as an entitlement through the state, either directly or through subsidy. Instead of educating the population to embrace and demand this change, which would have been leadership, the Obama administration elected to force through their one-eyed vision and condescendingly assure Americans they knew best. Thursday, the President admitted they didn't know best. They knew nothing. They knew nothing about website delivery, they knew nothing about insurance products, they knew nothing about the healthcare industry; they did not even know about federal procurement, which is an unforgivable lapse from the executive branch.
Obamacare doesn't in itself prove that government is the enemy; it does go a long way to proving that this government is too short-sighted, self-interested, hubristic, and frankly disconnected to be an ally.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 17:14:44 GMT -5
As much as I would like to tear apart our favorite poster's claims- there is no point. I have probably debunked around 100 bullshit posts or claims- and evidently he decided a while back to not answer criticism. No discussion is even on the radar- so why bother posting? I used to think the ignore feature was a way for people to avoid hearing conflicting information- but now I see it as a smart tactic to have people read your bullshit with impunity. So, I am not wasting my time with #829 or any other shit bombs he tosses and runs away from. Too bad- his crazy is driving a lot of topics. Maybe time to move on to Alex Jones PBP really gets to you, doesn't he? ObamaCare has imploded. It's past-tense. Now, what SHOULD happen is the GOP should (and should have) sit back and do absolutely nothing. No voting on "keep your plan" cosmetics to help the Democrats in 2014- nothing. And the GOP should simply wait with the rest of the country for nature to take its course: 1. Wait for the Democrats to finally acknowledge that the law is unworkable, and only full repeal can solve the problems it they have caused by supporting ObamaCare. 2. Wait for the Democrats to finally lead the charge for repeal- and they will. I've now come to the conclusion that the Democrats realize that they are going to live and die by ObamaCare, and only killing it quickly and putting it behind them as fast as humanly possible can save the Democratic Party politically. It's over. Distractions like the war on women and the supposed xenophobia and racism on the right-- it's over. Repealing ObamaCare is essential to the survival of America, and I know that makes it tough for Democrats to consider, but now that repealing ObamaCare is critical to the survival of the Democratic Party- I think they're going to do it, and probably sooner rather than later. Waiting until the mid-term campaigns are in full swing and be in the middle of trying to pretend this law still works in August and September is not tenable. In fact, if this whole thing was repealed by veto-proof majorities on Monday afternoon-- I don't think the Dems can escape the punishment due them in November 2014. This whole mess is great. Hopefully the idiots in the GOP won't do something asinine that gets their fingerprints on this turd. And that's a very real possibility- and right now, the Democrats all have to be praying, "GOP stupidity, don't fail us now!".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 16, 2013 17:33:32 GMT -5
PBP really gets to you, doesn't he? ObamaCare has imploded. It's past-tense. MittMentum. EVER.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Nov 16, 2013 17:42:40 GMT -5
ObamaCare has imploded. It's past-tense. MittMentum. EVER. <snicker>
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 17:47:03 GMT -5
The difference, dj, is that MittMentum was a prediction, whereas the collapse of ObamaCare is an observation- and nobody is 'observing' it like the Democrats up for re-election in 2014. 12 Senate seats must be defended by the Dems- 6 of them in 'red' states, the other 6 in swing states. Below, we rate the 10 seats that are most likely to flip in 2014. The top nine are all currently held by Democrats, and the 10th is Kentucky www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2012/11/09/senate-democrats-face-a-very-tough-2014-map/Now, this is a particularly interesting article- it's in the Hill and it dates back to July- well before the government shutdown, and well before the obvious implosion of Obama and the Democrat's cherished ObamaCare. thehill.com/homenews/senate/312339-mood-turns-somber-for-dems-in-2014-race-for-senateCould be burnt toast for the Dems Thanksgiving 2014... *Paul, you know the rule about photoshops. - mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 16, 2013 17:51:32 GMT -5
The difference, dj, is that MittMentum was a prediction, whereas the collapse of ObamaCare is an observation- and nobody is 'observing' it like the Democrats up for re-election in 2014. you felt that MittMentum was an observation, if you recall correctly. if you don't, i will happily remind you. edit: you are predicting the midterm elections, Paul. but what you are banking on is two things that i can almost guarantee are NOT going to happen: 1) that the ACA will not get "fixes" along the way, like RomneyCare did. it will. 2) that the GOP won't pull another foolish shutdown stunt again. they will. you have this tendency to see the moment as something that will last, that people will remember, and that will inspire people to vote. color me doubtful. and here is why. the people that hate this thing didn't vote for Obama. those that wanted it repealed voted for Romney. would Obama win if the election was held today? probably not. would he win a year from now?- you think not. and you are entitled to that PREDICTION. but you are not seeing the HUNDRED things that can happen between now and then. another war. another terrorist attack. 3.5% economic growth. two more government shutdowns. unemployment falling to 6%. YOU DON'T KNOW. neither do i. so please don't preach to me with conviction that the ACA is over, and that Obama is finished, and that Benghazi is going to be Obama's Waterloo. none of that is true. NONE of it. my prediction: the ACA is going to be around in 2016, and it is very unlikely that it will be repealed by that time. or, to use your language, this is my "observation" based on RomneyCare and Medicare Part B.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 17:57:44 GMT -5
And I may be lousy at predicting what will happen at the polls, but when Democrats start to panic, I start to become very, very optimistic that things are changing for the better. I just heard a speech on Common Core, and do you know how Communist Corps was described?
...as the "ObamaCare of education". By a liberal speaker, in support of the teachers and the NEA... Oh, my...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 16, 2013 18:00:32 GMT -5
And I may be lousy at predicting what will happen at the polls, but when Democrats start to panic, I start to become very, very optimistic that things are changing for the better. i wish i shared your optimism. all i see is bandaid fixes from here to 2016.I just heard a speech on Common Core, and do you know how Communist Corps was described? ...as the "ObamaCare of education". By a liberal speaker, in support of the teachers and the NEA... Oh, my... i don't know enough about Common Core to comment. there is about an 80% chance that my son is going to private school for the remainder of his educational life, so i am not that interested in finding out about it, either, at this point in time. the reason my son is in private school is because of NCLB, which i know a great deal about. but that is where my interest stopped.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 18:00:55 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 16, 2013 18:03:11 GMT -5
it is a PR stunt. and there will be a LOT more. and?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2013 18:44:03 GMT -5
The strutting and crowing is the highlight of the barnyard. The cry of the peacock... not so much so. But the braying... the braying is terribly annoying.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 16, 2013 18:58:22 GMT -5
The strutting and crowing is the highlight of the barnyard. The cry of the peacock... not so much so. But the braying... the braying is terribly annoying. the GOP would be +3% in straw polls right now if they had not shut the government down. but that little stunt cost them 5%. they are still making it up. if they do it again, it will cost them ANOTHER 5%. they WILL do it again. it is their new MO.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2013 20:05:59 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 21:07:25 GMT -5
The strutting and crowing is the highlight of the barnyard. The cry of the peacock... not so much so. But the braying... the braying is terribly annoying. I believe you have me confused for your mascot. That, I am not.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 21:09:03 GMT -5
Not that mascot, either. I'm no one's mascot, really-- this would be another one of yours.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 21:10:16 GMT -5
The strutting and crowing is the highlight of the barnyard. The cry of the peacock... not so much so. But the braying... the braying is terribly annoying. the GOP would be +3% in straw polls right now if they had not shut the government down. but that little stunt cost them 5%. they are still making it up. if they do it again, it will cost them ANOTHER 5%. they WILL do it again. it is their new MO. The gov't shutdown blip is gone. You're way behind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2013 21:33:52 GMT -5
It's difficult to "keep up with" all the stuff spewed by self-styled "prognosticators"... whose strategy is to "predict" a bunch of rubbish and claim to be clairvoyant if any of the stuff "sticks". (Pay no attention to the 99.7% that they get dead wrong!) "Nattering Nabobs", indeed.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 16, 2013 21:47:53 GMT -5
It's difficult to "keep up with" all the stuff spewed by self-styled "prognosticators"... whose strategy is to "predict" a bunch of rubbish and claim to be clairvoyant if any of the stuff "sticks". (Pay no attention to the 99.7% that they get dead wrong!) "Nattering Nabobs", indeed. The difference I guess when it comes to statism and central planning is that it's a lot like flying. It takes a lot of power to get off the ground, a lot of fuel to stay up there and it's fun while you can stay flying, but eventually it runs out of gas. Gravity eventually pulls it back down. It's never worked, and the statists always assumes that it's because there wasn't enough funding, or it wasn't the right tyrants running the show, and if it could only be them then "This Time" it'll work. The trouble with the Democrats this is not politics. This isn't a shutdown where PR stunts, press conferences, and bureaucrats running around annoying people with locked gates and barricades is going to go unnoticed. They're fucking with real people's lives here. They're screwing with people who have children in cancer treatment that are going to lose their insurance and/or their doctors. They're messing with families who are already strained by the pressures of Obamanomics finding out not only have they lost their coverage, and that they don't qualify to be sluffed off on Medicaid, but that their premiums are double, tripple, or more what they used to be and they can't afford them. The lie to cover the lie that it was "if" your policy changes, and really even then you're getting a better government-mandated product, and you're gonna save money-- isn't working. The Democrats of course always knew this- this was the plan-- to totally collapse what was left of the private sector health insurance market and force everyone into single payer after they've screwed things up so badly nobody will have a choice. And it may well work. I don't know. People will be looking for answers now that Obama and the Democrats have fucked them over. The question is, I guess, are they going to accept the answers from the same people that screwed them? Wouldn't be the first time. But I still hold out hope that Americans are different. That culturally, we're just a little less tyrant-prone than others have been to this point. Could I be wrong? Sure. Human nature doesn't change over time, and the history of the world is not one in which people have been free. The American experiment in individual liberty is a once in 10,000 year blip. It's never happened before, it may not keep going, and if it ends with us- mankind may never know freedom again on this Earth. And realistically- that's a good possibility. And it would be the historical norm. That this whole wonderful gift mankind was given in a little tiny corner of the world for such a brief time is an outlier- would not be shocking.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 8:58:12 GMT -5
the people that hate this thing didn't vote for Obama. There is a 14 point gap between the "approves" and "disapproves" on Obamacare. And the "disapproves" are greater than 50% and climbing. That gap was a steady 10 point difference before the website fiasco, so it's not like the dislike is new. If a vote were held today, I don't think the results would be the same as the Presidential election by a longshot. Democrats beat Republicans by 1.6 points in a generic ballot, but the blue line is dropping like a rock. On the bright side, Hillary still holds a solid edge in Presidential polls. Of course, Americans are fickle, and as you say, there are good odds the Republicans will pull some stupid stunt to change all of this in the Democrats favor....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 9:51:05 GMT -5
If it were the insurance companies doing this, don't you think Obama, Pelosi, et al would be pointing that out? There is no denying that this has been a major screw up by the Democrats.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 17, 2013 10:49:10 GMT -5
I think they will do another shutdown. Also wait in 2014 they say the budget cuts forced through are going to take a heavy toll this time. Last time they shuffled things around to make it not so bad, but not enough money to do it this time. I don't think people realize this is messing with real peoples lives and more people will lose jobs, but maybe that is the plan by one political party to make the other look bad. As far as people losing ins, I think this may very well be a game the insurance companies are playing to make people scream loud enough to make them put the ins back in place. It seems to be working too. I think there is a lot of very dirty games being played by the ins companies and the opposition right now. patstab, you have to get a reality check. The Unaffordable Healthcare act helped the following Unions big insurance companies hospital conglomerates the uninsured people with pre-existing health conditions It hurts just about anyone else, through higher premiums to pay for the above. And this was a Democratic plan from day one.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 17, 2013 13:19:20 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 14:47:47 GMT -5
That was funny. Although more importantly, did you see how hot Pelosi has become?? Boy all that plastic surgery has finally worked! Replacing her skin with tightly-stretched silly putty is just gorgeous.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 17, 2013 15:02:01 GMT -5
I think they will do another shutdown. Also wait in 2014 they say the budget cuts forced through are going to take a heavy toll this time. Last time they shuffled things around to make it not so bad, but not enough money to do it this time. I don't think people realize this is messing with real peoples lives and more people will lose jobs, but maybe that is the plan by one political party to make the other look bad. As far as people losing ins, I think this may very well be a game the insurance companies are playing to make people scream loud enough to make them put the ins back in place. It seems to be working too. I think there is a lot of very dirty games being played by the ins companies and the opposition right now. Yeah- a "heavy toll". Here's the discussion, in case you're unfamiliar with it, of exactly what 'heavy toll' means. Absurdity used to illustrate the absurd:
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2013 15:09:54 GMT -5
the people that hate this thing didn't vote for Obama. There is a 14 point gap between the "approves" and "disapproves" on Obamacare. i am making a distinction between "dislikes" and "hates". "hates" would be closer to "strongly disapproves", or "wants repealed"- a number that is significantly below 50%
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2013 15:16:23 GMT -5
Democrats beat Republicans by 1.6 points in a generic ballot, but the blue line is dropping like a rock. the reason i say that is meaningless is that Democrats will notice that, and take action to stop it. moreover, their fortunes were precisely the opposite a month ago. to think that they could not reverse themselves in 2 months WHEN the GOP forces a second shutdown is, as i put it early, not really showing much foresight.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2013 15:18:28 GMT -5
I think they will do another shutdown. Also wait in 2014 they say the budget cuts forced through are going to take a heavy toll this time. Last time they shuffled things around to make it not so bad, but not enough money to do it this time. I don't think people realize this is messing with real peoples lives and more people will lose jobs, but maybe that is the plan by one political party to make the other look bad. As far as people losing ins, I think this may very well be a game the insurance companies are playing to make people scream loud enough to make them put the ins back in place. It seems to be working too. I think there is a lot of very dirty games being played by the ins companies and the opposition right now. patstab, you have to get a reality check. The Unaffordable Healthcare act helped the following Unions big insurance companies hospital conglomerates the uninsured people with pre-existing health conditions It hurts just about anyone else, through higher premiums to pay for the above. And this was a Democratic plan from day one. same is true for Medicare, Part B. now, i ask you, and i expect an honest answer: WAS IT REPEALED?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 17, 2013 15:19:40 GMT -5
If it were the insurance companies doing this, don't you think Obama, Pelosi, et al would be pointing that out? There is no denying that this has been a major screw up by the Democrats. They're doing their best to blame it on insurance companies, but it's pretty clear the insurance companies are simply complying with the law. Not only that, but losing your policy wasn't even in the original bill. It was written in there special by Obama's regime on the regulatory side of this. He went OUT OF HIS WAY to cause this pain. You could almost forgive incompetence- especially corrected quickly. But this was done deliberately because Obama and the Democrats know that if people can keep their plan- that's what they'll do, and ObamaCare doesn't work without FORCING people into the exchanges. So, we went from 15 million uninsured to 20 million. And now roughly (by the Obama regime's own estimates) 93 million Americans will lose their insurance, and be forced into a plan that is inferiror to what they had (except now they'll have birth contraception and maternity coverage- even if they're a 93 year old male), and far more expensive. This isn't a major screw up- that's the thing I want people to understand. This is ON PURPOSE. This is going according to plan. And Obama doesn't give a shit if Dems get killed in the midterms- he's thinking longer term. He is willing to sacrifice the Democrat's short term political prospects for 'fundamental change' long term- a universal healthcare entitlement such as the plans that are falling apart in favor of privatization. It's a giant gamble. And I'm personally afraid it's going to work. At least we could clean up Carter's mess. This can't be fixed- it'll be FDR, and Johnson all over again. Of course there's no free market backstop anymore- they've taken just about everything over. This means that it won't take half a century or more for the problems to manifest- it'll collapse relatively quickly in my opinion because we don't have war on poverty equivalent trillions to screw around with for 40 years. We're basically past the point of no return on the debt already- at about $12 trillion it became mathematically impossible for the US to ever repay the debt. At $17 trillion, the prospect of digging out isn't better. The United States is bankrupt, and still borrowing- which almost unheard of historically. Credit limit cut-off and default are next up- and it's not going to be 20 years, or even 10. It's coming up quickly-- and that's barring nothing horrific like an EMP strike by Iran or North Korea on the East Coast, or a major natural disaster like a Katrina, or a major California earthquake such as happened in 1989.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2013 15:28:23 GMT -5
I think they will do another shutdown. Also wait in 2014 they say the budget cuts forced through are going to take a heavy toll this time. Last time they shuffled things around to make it not so bad, but not enough money to do it this time. I don't think people realize this is messing with real peoples lives and more people will lose jobs, but maybe that is the plan by one political party to make the other look bad. As far as people losing ins, I think this may very well be a game the insurance companies are playing to make people scream loud enough to make them put the ins back in place. It seems to be working too. I think there is a lot of very dirty games being played by the ins companies and the opposition right now. Yeah- a "heavy toll". Here's the discussion, in case you're unfamiliar with it, of exactly what 'heavy toll' means. Absurdity used to illustrate the absurd: well, that IS absurd. but not for the reasons you think. the debt is about $17T right now. the total income to the treasury is $2.7T. that is about a 16% income to debt ratio. even if the interest on that debt were 6%, it would meet the 40% income to debt ratio that most lenders use for loaning on real property. the guy in the video is asking for an extra $17k of credit to take him up to $170k. in order for that to NOT be workable to a bank, his interest rate would have to be over 5%, which it very likely is. in other words, the video compares an unbankable situation from an individual with a bankable one from an institution. apples:oranges is it totally outrageous? no. but it is a bit fatuous. especially since federal income IS rising.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2013 15:31:40 GMT -5
If it were the insurance companies doing this, don't you think Obama, Pelosi, et al would be pointing that out? There is no denying that this has been a major screw up by the Democrats. They're doing their best to blame it on insurance companies, but it's pretty clear the insurance companies are simply complying with the law. Not only that, but losing your policy wasn't even in the original bill. It was written in there special by Obama's regime on the regulatory side of this. He went OUT OF HIS WAY to cause this pain. You could almost forgive incompetence- especially corrected quickly. But this was done deliberately because Obama and the Democrats know that if people can keep their plan- that's what they'll do, and ObamaCare doesn't work without FORCING people into the exchanges. So, we went from 15 million uninsured to 20 million. And now roughly (by the Obama regime's own estimates) 93 million Americans will lose their insurance, and be forced into a plan that is inferiror to what they had (except now they'll have birth contraception and maternity coverage- even if they're a 93 year old male), and far more expensive. This isn't a major screw up- that's the thing I want people to understand. This is ON PURPOSE. This is going according to plan. And Obama doesn't give a shit if Dems get killed in the midterms- he's thinking longer term. He is willing to sacrifice the Democrat's short term political prospects for 'fundamental change' long term- a universal healthcare entitlement such as the plans that are falling apart in favor of privatization. It's a giant gamble. And I'm personally afraid it's going to work. At least we could clean up Carter's mess. This can't be fixed- it'll be FDR, and Johnson all over again. FDR and Johnson were fixed. debt as a % of GDP fell 75% between FDR and Carter. it only started rising again when your hero came to town, and it has been rising ever since due to his policies (which were, to be fair, adopted by Democrats, including Obama).
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