thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,763
|
Post by thyme4change on Oct 18, 2013 17:10:59 GMT -5
He was for a month. Now he is out, and I think the best thing for him would be to get a job. Being alone in the house - cleaning or not, painting or not - it is like returning to the scene of the crime. But, that is me. Work is my solution for a lot of things.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 17:47:00 GMT -5
I was told by a psychologist that when you're trying to stop a habit, you should replace the bad habit with a good one. Otherwise, you're likely to end up with a bunch of other bad habits. When I decided to quit smoking, which is an addiction, I remembered that advice and chose a healthy habit to give me something to do/think about other than the habit I was trying to break. It gave me something positive to fill the time that I would've spent smoking. That may not help everybody, but it helped me a lot. I also read an article (somewhere on the internet, so it must be true!) that talked about how the human brains works when it comes to exercising discipline. The short story is that it's very difficult to exercise discipline in several areas at once. For instance, it's hard to focus on not drinking and losing weight at the same time. Both require a great deal of discipline, and you'll probably end up doing neither if you try to do them both at the same time. Maybe that's why AA advises not making taking on anything major, especially if it's something stressful. I'm no expert, but I think the guy in the OP is making excuses. He needs to keep busy with things that aren't stressful. On the "alcholism is a disease", I always thought that referred to people that have what I call addictive personalities. I thought the tendency towards addiction was the actual disease regardless of how it manifests itself (gambling, drugs, sex, alcohol, whatever). Of course, just because that's what I thought, doesn't mean it's correct.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 18, 2013 18:00:50 GMT -5
I was told by a psychologist that when you're trying to stop a habit, you should replace the bad habit with a good one. Otherwise, you're likely to end up with a bunch of other bad habits. When I decided to quit smoking, which is an addiction, I remembered that advice and chose a healthy habit to give me something to do/think about other than the habit I was trying to break. It gave me something positive to fill the time that I would've spent smoking. That may not help everybody, but it helped me a lot. I also read an article (somewhere on the internet, so it must be true!) that talked about how the human brains works when it comes to exercising discipline. The short story is that it's very difficult to exercise discipline in several areas at once. For instance, it's hard to focus on not drinking and losing weight at the same time. Both require a great deal of discipline, and you'll probably end up doing neither if you try to do them both at the same time. Maybe that's why AA advises not making taking on anything major, especially if it's something stressful. I'm no expert, but I think the guy in the OP is making excuses. He needs to keep busy with things that aren't stressful. On the "alcholism is a disease", I always thought that referred to people that have what I call addictive personalities. I thought the tendency towards addiction was the actual disease regardless of how it manifests itself (gambling, drugs, sex, alcohol, whatever). Of course, just because that's what I thought, doesn't mean it's correct. That makes perfect sense. I am trying to think what did I start doing when I quit smoking and I can't come up with anything. Hmmmm As far as "addictive personality" thing, that's 100% true for me. Once I am into something, I am REALLY into it. Doesn't matter if it's good or bad, but it's hard for me to stop. I wonder if I can collect some kind of disability check for that one........
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 18:48:07 GMT -5
I do believe in addictive body chemistry. I know I don't have it. I've never gone on a drinking binge in my life, not because I'm particularly virtuous or disciplined- I just don't like the feeling of being out of it. My cousin and my ex-husband, OTOH, were addicts and they're both dead now. I really think it's a much harder battle for people with addictive body chemistry to stay away from addictions. Interestingly, the father of my cousin with the drug problems drank and smoked and partied when he was young- then went all nutso on health food as an adult, wouldn't let white bread in the house, and took up marathon running. Another form of addiction?
My Ex was in AA for a few years. I know there are people for whom it works and I think that's great. It seems to have a better track record than standard talk therapy. I guess my Ex was another two-stepper. He used the term "dry drunk" and I think it described him well. He was still obnoxious and irresponsible and still put me down and made the house a war zone- he just didn't drink. Oh, yeah- he also fell madly in love with a woman he met in AA, which is so common it's called the 13th step. Eventually he went back to drinking. I don't blame AA- I just think he skipped a lot of important steps like facing the damage he'd done and making reparations. And I did hear a lot of "it's a disease". Well, whether it is or not you've got to be a responsible adult and stand on your own two feet.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,763
|
Post by thyme4change on Oct 18, 2013 18:55:25 GMT -5
I was told by a psychologist that when you're trying to stop a habit, you should replace the bad habit with a good one. That is why I thought he should get a job.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,078
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 19, 2013 8:18:09 GMT -5
He was for a month.
Did he benefit from it? If he did might not be a bad idea to go back or ask them for recommendations on who he should see. It doesn't sound like his AA group is a good fit for him at all. It's either enabling him or reinforcing "life is hopeless" for him.
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,140
|
Post by giramomma on Oct 19, 2013 23:02:04 GMT -5
I know......I was trying to make a funny. All that hooking up and screwing and members of Sex Addicts Anonymous. Only if Sex Addicts are Gay and intercourse is how they act out... Many SA or S-Anon meetings are same gender to prevent such issues.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,494
|
Post by Tennesseer on Oct 19, 2013 23:14:16 GMT -5
I know......I was trying to make a funny. All that hooking up and screwing and members of Sex Addicts Anonymous. Only if Sex Addicts are Gay and intercourse is how they act out... Many SA or S-Anon meetings are same gender to prevent such issues. Any port ìn a storm?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:33:50 GMT -5
My father-in-law has been sober 25 years and still attends and hosts (tries to, ALS limits him severely) regular AA meetings. I don't believe in it. It's just a way for him to deflect any personal responsibility for his life because he is "powerless over his disease." He's always going to be an addict, he just traded booze and drugs for sky diving and computers and printers. But he's powerless after all! If he's been sober for 25 years AA is working for him. yeah seriously?....he's been sober for 25 years...you don't think his continuing attendance at AA meetings has any part in that?
|
|
Cookies Galore
Senior Associate
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 18:08:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,891
Member is Online
|
Post by Cookies Galore on Oct 20, 2013 16:23:34 GMT -5
If he's been sober for 25 years AA is working for him. yeah seriously?....he's been sober for 25 years...you don't think his continuing attendance at AA meetings has yany part in that? He's a dry drunk. All the same behavior is there, just no booze. Lucy referring to two-steppers is a perfect explanation.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 17:03:40 GMT -5
AA is a method of staying sober and improving your life. It works to the extent that the person using it works. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the method.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 20:07:35 GMT -5
I wonder, do alcoholics need to believe in god to be cured according to AA?
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 15,010
|
Post by raeoflyte on Oct 20, 2013 20:13:45 GMT -5
AA worked for my uncle, but he went from being a drunk asshole to a religious asshole.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 20, 2013 20:29:10 GMT -5
Late DH was in AA (and rehab) not once, but three times. The person who is going to follow the 12-steps mantra has to first WANT to stop their substance abuse (whether it's booze, drugs, etc).
If they're not going into it 100% dedicated, they're bound to fail the first time around. They really have to commit to the program. It helps too, if they have a non-family/friend sponsor who they can call or talk to if they feel the urge to slip. Family and friends will get emotional, angry, etc.
A non-judgmental sponsor can work wonders helping an addict get through a minor crisis or craving. Sponsors are usually offered.
The main points of the Twelve-Step program that the addict must really be willing to do(after admitting that they do have a problem and accepting they need help,) is 3, 4, 5, and 6 as well as 10. All 12 steps are important and shouldn't be skipped over - if the person is willing to stick with the program and go regularly to the meetings to talk/vent get feedback from others there as well as the AA counselors, they have a good chance of success. But the ultimate is willingness to commit to the program and stick with it - which means totally re-adjusting your lifestyle.
3. Commitment. (The key word in step 3 is decision.)
4. Honesty. (An inventory of self.)
5. Truth. (Candid confession to God and another human being.)
6. Willingness. (Choosing to abandon defects of character.)
10. Vigilance. (Exercising self-discovery, honesty, abandonment, humility, reflection and amendment on a momentary, daily, and periodic basis.)
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 20, 2013 20:34:17 GMT -5
I wonder, do alcoholics need to believe in god to be cured according to AA? The answer to that is no. The AA 12-Steps were written a long time ago - your belief/or non-belief makes no difference in how effective the program is - again, it's up to each individual entering into it how committed to it and successful they will be.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 20:35:46 GMT -5
I wonder, do alcoholics need to believe in god to be cured according to AA? They don't "have" to do anything. But those that have recovered using the 12 steps say that they came to believe in a power greater than themselves. The interpretation of what that is varies widely. But the 12 steps probably won't work for those that think they are the most powerful force out there.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 20, 2013 21:01:33 GMT -5
I don't know what kind of AA places they have where you are TLoonya - but here, the people aren't hanging around outside the building smoking & drinking coffee. The meetings are held in a specific location (usually Sunday afternoons), and when you walk in the door you're there for the length of that session. People don't hang around outside smoking & drinking coffee- that sounds like you're thinking of a drop-in center.
And not all alcoholics are "bums" or "homeless". My DH was a high-level three-piece suit exec - as were others in his group - sitting right alongside of possibly a welder, teacher, grocery clerk, cop, laborer, or Doctor. Alcoholism has no class distinction - it can affect anyone.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,617
|
Post by swamp on Oct 20, 2013 21:05:16 GMT -5
I wonder, do alcoholics need to believe in god to be cured according to AA? You're never "cured" of alcoholism. You just control it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 21:38:49 GMT -5
I don't know what kind of AA places they have where you are TLoonya - but here, the people aren't hanging around outside the building smoking & drinking coffee. The meetings are held in a specific location (usually Sunday afternoons), and when you walk in the door you're there for the length of that session. People don't hang around outside smoking & drinking coffee- that sounds like you're thinking of a drop-in center. my church in NJ had AA meetings at the same time I attended Al-Anon ( for families and friends of alcoholics) and there were always members outside clutching cups of coffee and smoking. Smoking was forbidden in the building.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 11:19:39 GMT -5
I wonder, do alcoholics need to believe in god to be cured according to AA? They don't "have" to do anything. But those that have recovered using the 12 steps say that they came to believe in a power greater than themselves. The interpretation of what that is varies widely. But the 12 steps probably won't work for those that think they are the most powerful force out there. hmmm so to believe in yourself is not enough, you need a "higher power"?
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 21, 2013 12:45:56 GMT -5
I know very little of addiction and recovery. But it does make sense that you wouldn't want to suddenly go into a new, stressful situation, like starting a job after you haven't been working for 10 years. Change is hard, and the stress of new situations might make you relapse. You have to learn to cope with not drinking first, before you can think about something like starting a new job. And for some people, it might literally be a minute to minute battle. That's what addiction is after all. So, that kinda makes sense why they would advise him not to start a new career for a year or so.
Though, I don't see why they'd discourage him from doing housework. I would think they'd want him to fill his time with other things that aren't as difficult as starting a new career, in order to fill his time and help him resist the urge to drink.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 21, 2013 13:28:59 GMT -5
If he's been sober for 25 years AA is working for him. The sobriety is a good thing but the man is a trainwreck. Like my FIL and the person in the OP, there are a lot of people who use AA as a crutch to shirk personal responsibility. But I'm extremely biased. AA is there to help people get sober and stay that way. It's not out to make people more likable, or not jerks. There are plenty of sober assholes too. It is unrealistic of you to expect AA to make your FIL a nice guy. I don't think any group can do that.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 18:00:11 GMT -5
They don't "have" to do anything. But those that have recovered using the 12 steps say that they came to believe in a power greater than themselves. The interpretation of what that is varies widely. But the 12 steps probably won't work for those that think they are the most powerful force out there. hmmm so to believe in yourself is not enough, you need a "higher power"? Well, if you are strong enough why did you get addicted in the first place? If you could control it on your own why haven't you?
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 21, 2013 22:44:49 GMT -5
Don't you mean to say *some* who have recovered instead of *those* who have recovered? Not all recovering alcoholics believe it was a power greater than themselves. They believe it was themselves being committed to the treatment and wanting to get clean and then sticking with the program and staying clean. The only great power IS themselves - they are in control of their own destiny and whether the program or recovery will succeed or not - not some unknown force "greater than themselves". They have to decide for themselves to make the commitment and then follow-through. It has nothing to do with some unknown force or higher power.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 15:57:41 GMT -5
hmmm so to believe in yourself is not enough, you need a "higher power"? Well, if you are strong enough why did you get addicted in the first place? If you could control it on your own why haven't you? AA agnostic meetings have been happening since 1975, quite successfully.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 18:02:05 GMT -5
Well, if you are strong enough why did you get addicted in the first place? If you could control it on your own why haven't you? AA agnostic meetings have been happening since 1975, quite successfully. Being agnostic or atheist does not negate knowing that there is a power greater than yourself. As I said, the interpretation of what that power is varies widely. It doesn't have to be the Christian concept of God.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 18:07:30 GMT -5
What "AA says" is presented in it's literature, as approved by the General Service Structure. No individual member speaks for AA. And the literature quite clearly states that recovered members have found a higher power as they understand it. It is mentioned throughout the steps and the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
ETA - bastardizations of what AA teaches explains things like the OP. I promise you, not doing housework is not one of the steps in staying sober.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 22, 2013 18:13:25 GMT -5
The power of one's own mind and wanting to recover/stay clean is the only power one needs to succeed in the program.
There are many recovering/recovered addicts now living a clean, healthy and productive life, who do not believe in a power higher than themselves.
They went through the program to succeed on their own sheer willingness, dedication and determination. The only "higher power" they needed was the power of their own mind and will to succeed.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Oct 22, 2013 18:17:38 GMT -5
I know a good number of people who are not religious and are working on their recovery through a program called Rational Recovery: rational.org/index.php?id=1Lots of help and support without the religious/spiritual over (and under) tones.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 12:31:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 11:37:33 GMT -5
I know a good number of people who are not religious and are working on their recovery through a program called Rational Recovery: rational.org/index.php?id=1Lots of help and support without the religious/spiritual over (and under) tones. Wonderful! AA is not the only way that people get sober and I am thrilled with any way it happens. But AA has very strong spiritual over and under tones.
|
|