greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Oct 18, 2013 12:05:03 GMT -5
Crone is spot-on regarding the lifestyle change. That's they tricky part right there for some people. DH's oldest brother, for example. He's an alcoholic but lives in a VERY small town; drinking IS the activity of the town and there is never an event of any kind without alcohol. Even if he tried I don't see him ever being successful at giving it up because his lifestyle will never change.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Oct 18, 2013 12:21:44 GMT -5
Why do you think I am here? I am just avoiding AA...people here are much prettier.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 12:24:57 GMT -5
Awww..... that's the nicest thing you've said, well......EVER! ETA: methinks LOONY took a few nips out of the Putinka bottle before posting today.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Oct 18, 2013 12:36:38 GMT -5
Awww..... that's the nicest thing you've said, well......EVER! ETA: methinks LOONY took a few nips out of the Putinka bottle before posting today. First of all I drink Gordon. (All this russian shit is just that ... shit!) Secondary...I drive by the AA place often and I see those...faces who are smoking neurotically and drinking coffee...and they look...not recoverable. I hope I am wrong.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 18, 2013 12:51:54 GMT -5
Awww..... that's the nicest thing you've said, well......EVER! ETA: methinks LOONY took a few nips out of the Putinka bottle before posting today. First of all I drink Gordon. (All this russian shit is just that ... shit!) Secondary...I drive by the AA place often and I see those...faces who are smoking neurotically and drinking coffee...and they look...not recoverable. I hope I am wrong. LOL! Don't forget all the screwing that goes on there. I used to work for an alcoholic and boy did I learn a lot from them! A friend's sister referred me to the job (she didn't know she was an alcoholic). She (the owner) would hire all these people from the bars she frequented so I met many alcoholics. They would go to AA together for the social aspects, smoking and to find partners. One chick didn't care if they were male or female. And there were actually sober people who went to AA just for the hook ups and the social times at the bars after AA. It was all very interesting and they all continued to drink. Even their sponsors. I could always tell when they were dry and really trying because they'd eat the entire basket of candy in an hour. I guess they needed the sugar. The boss always had the shakes after a bender though and also needed the candy so who knows? And guess what the job was. Federal DOT drug and alcohol testing. Not to say all are like that. Just that situation I knew about. But alcoholics and drug abusers are very manipulative people and this guy sounds like one too. I agree with others that he is full of crap and is playing it to his benefit.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Oct 18, 2013 13:11:42 GMT -5
So, he goes to AA, and talks it all out, and says that he just feels so unsuccessful because he doesn't have a career and his dreams are squashed. But, AA tells him not to even think about getting a job for a year, as he has to just concentrate on not drinking
I think he misinterpreted. Is using it an excuse. Or his AA spponse is full of shit. You're not supposed to stop living your life and shirk your responsbilities. Life has to continue on. You're just not supposed to do something drastic like going to law school for example. Don't be making huge life changes because deciding not to be an active addict is already a huge life change. If he's that bad that he can't do anything beyond not drink then he should be in an in patient rehab facility. And even then, the long term sobriety of rehab patients is a very small percentage.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Oct 18, 2013 13:15:36 GMT -5
If he's been sober for 25 years AA is working for him. The sobriety is a good thing but the man is a trainwreck. Like my FIL and the person in the OP, there are a lot of people who use AA as a crutch to shirk personal responsibility. But I'm extremely biased. And you're entitled to your bias. Addicts leave a path of destruction that all the apologies and rehab can't change and often can't mend.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Oct 18, 2013 13:15:54 GMT -5
Crone is spot-on regarding the lifestyle change. That's they tricky part right there for some people. DH's oldest brother, for example. He's an alcoholic but lives in a VERY small town; drinking IS the activity of the town and there is never an event of any kind without alcohol. Even if he tried I don't see him ever being successful at giving it up because his lifestyle will never change. Well, that isn't true of all small towns. It depends on your social circle. I live in a small town. And, yeah, there are the drinking crowds and the church crowds and the sports crowds and on and on. He just might need to find a new circle of people to hang with.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Oct 18, 2013 13:20:25 GMT -5
Oh, definitely! I didn't say or mean it was ALL small towns. Just this one in particular. Sadly, the majority of his circle of "friends" are all relatives that still live there, too, so getting away from them is about impossible!
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Oct 18, 2013 13:22:10 GMT -5
Doesn't AA have a religious component to it? Maybe that's where the "powerless" part comes in from the religious idea/concept/teaching that humans need God to accomplish stuff - it's kinda like that "Let Go and Let God" thing.
FWIW: I'm an Atheist so I don't quite get the whole 'god aspect' to changing habits or changing one's life... I seem to be able to do those things without a higher power being involved. This is NOT a critism of people who do need a higher power involved in their lives. By all means, if belief in a god makes you a better person I'm not gonna be the one to try to dissuade you from that belief or tell you your god is whooey. I'm just saying I can appreciate what belief in a higher power can do for some people but I have no first hand/personal experience with it...
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 18, 2013 13:43:15 GMT -5
And I don't get the "it's a disease" aspects of it. You don't just wake up one day craving a 5th of Vodka. The guy that started the "alcoholism is a disease" said he regretted it because it gave them a cop out for why they couldn't stop drinking. He said his intent was to make it less stigmatizing so they would get the help they needed without being embarrassed about it but instead many used it as a crutch "I can't help it! I have a DISEASE!" I can't tell you how many times I've heard that.
I have had many alcoholics in my family (both blood and step) and if cancer didn't get them first the alcohol did.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 18, 2013 13:45:36 GMT -5
And even then, the long term sobriety of rehab patients is a very small percentage
True but I wasn't so much talking about being sober but his claim that the only thing can do/handle is focus on not drinking. He can't even take on painting the living room according to him because it'll keep him from staying sober. If you're that far down the addiction brick road you need stronger intervention than AA meetings. Maybe mentioning that would give him a kick in the pants. Somebody's full of BS in the OP because my DH is an addict and never were we told that he had to give up everything to sit on the couch and focus on not taking pain pills. DH never did AA/NA though, we went straight to licensed addiction therapists so maybe that's why we got different advice?
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Oct 18, 2013 14:59:11 GMT -5
And I don't get the "it's a disease" aspects of it. You don't just wake up one day craving a 5th of Vodka. The guy that started the "alcoholism is a disease" said he regretted it because it gave them a cop out for why they couldn't stop drinking. He said his intent was to make it less stigmatizing so they would get the help they needed without being embarrassed about it but instead many used it as a crutch "I can't help it! I have a DISEASE!" I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. I have had many alcoholics in my family (both blood and step) and if cancer didn't get them first the alcohol did. I thought that as well that people do not ask for illness, and alcohol and drugs can't be called illness because person doing it to himself willingly...until I was told it is like a mental illness when they can't not do it because of how their head working So I had kind of understood...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 15:17:58 GMT -5
Doesn't AA have a religious component to it? Maybe that's where the "powerless" part comes in from the religious idea/concept/teaching that humans need God to accomplish stuff - it's kinda like that "Let Go and Let God" thing. FWIW: I'm an Atheist so I don't quite get the whole 'god aspect' to changing habits or changing one's life... I seem to be able to do those things without a higher power being involved. This is NOT a critism of people who do need a higher power involved in their lives. By all means, if belief in a god makes you a better person I'm not gonna be the one to try to dissuade you from that belief or tell you your god is whooey. I'm just saying I can appreciate what belief in a higher power can do for some people but I have no first hand/personal experience with it... AA has a HUGE religious component. Some say AA peeps go from being messed up on drugs to being messed up on God.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 18, 2013 15:18:13 GMT -5
And I don't get the "it's a disease" aspects of it. You don't just wake up one day craving a 5th of Vodka. The guy that started the "alcoholism is a disease" said he regretted it because it gave them a cop out for why they couldn't stop drinking. He said his intent was to make it less stigmatizing so they would get the help they needed without being embarrassed about it but instead many used it as a crutch "I can't help it! I have a DISEASE!" I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. I have had many alcoholics in my family (both blood and step) and if cancer didn't get them first the alcohol did. Do you think that because you don't get it, the AMA is wrong? I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying here. I don't understand a whole myriad of mental and physical disorders, but I don't presume that means they don't exist. Usually. Although some are a pretty tough sell.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Oct 18, 2013 15:32:19 GMT -5
I go to AA and there are no "leaders". At least here. Someone chairs every meeting, but that person varies every week. There are people who go to AA and don't do all the steps. Those people tend to still have the alcoholic traits/personality but can still stay sober. They're often referred to as two-steppers -- they do 1 and 12 (powerless and hey! check out AA) and never do the ones in the middle that actually help you get better. I was a two-stepper for years, and it didn't help me in the least when my world fell apart. Now that I'm working on the middle 10, there's been an amazing amount of progress. I'm a much nicer person! (At least, I think so....) As to the OP, AA says no big changes for a year. It doesn't say be a lazy jerk and shirk your family responsibilities (although some people might actually need a lesser amount of responsibility to work on getting better in the first few months. But that's a specific situation). Also, Swamp outlined the basics perfectly in her post on page 1. As for the religious aspect, it's about finding a power greater than yourself. I know one guy who used Spider Man as his high power. I might use zombies for the next few weeks! The idea is to turn stuff over to your higher power (such as the running of the government. I can't control that, so I will "turn it over" instead of getting all pissy about it.) A two stepper! That makes so much sense to me!
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 18, 2013 15:35:29 GMT -5
And I don't get the "it's a disease" aspects of it. You don't just wake up one day craving a 5th of Vodka. The guy that started the "alcoholism is a disease" said he regretted it because it gave them a cop out for why they couldn't stop drinking. He said his intent was to make it less stigmatizing so they would get the help they needed without being embarrassed about it but instead many used it as a crutch "I can't help it! I have a DISEASE!" I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. I have had many alcoholics in my family (both blood and step) and if cancer didn't get them first the alcohol did. Do you think that because you don't get it, the AMA is wrong? I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying here. I don't understand a whole myriad of mental and physical disorders, but I don't presume that means they don't exist. Usually. Although some are a pretty tough sell. No, I don't think that. I do get that addiction is a disease but you still don't "catch" it one day where you want that much alcohol all of the sudden. You are slowly training your body to want more of it by constantly doing it. The reason people drink too much is because of some inner demons/stress/emotional upset, etc. Their body does not just crave the alcohol. It's a domino effect of behaviors. You can be snarky and/or disagree. It doesn't bother me. ETA: Lucy - Very well said and thank you for being honest about your situation. IMO those that are honest about the situation, regardless of what it is, have a much greater chance of over coming their addiction. I think the dude in the OP is playing it and will never over come it until he gets real. It takes strength though and lots of honesty.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 18, 2013 15:49:17 GMT -5
DH doesn't like the whole "disease" thing either because to him it sends the message that he's powerless to control his destiny. He also feels like it can alienate people you need for support because the assumption is "you can't change you have a disease"
There is a mental component to it, addicts brains work different than a non-addicts. DH's therapist said it's like OCD, you self medicate in an attempt to get rid of the demons in your head. Also a lot of addicts do have underlying mental health issues.
So getting it recognized as a "disease" helped put it in the public eye and get funds devoted to research and treatment.
The downside is exactly what people have said here, it's turned into an enabler for a lot of addicts. They just can't help themselves.
A good treatment plan, IMO, recognizes there is a mental component DH can't help but there is also a huge element of choice in there as well. There is a reason the first step is admitting you have a problem.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 18, 2013 15:56:12 GMT -5
Do you think that because you don't get it, the AMA is wrong? I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying here. I don't understand a whole myriad of mental and physical disorders, but I don't presume that means they don't exist. Usually. Although some are a pretty tough sell. No, I don't think that. I do get that addiction is a disease but you still don't "catch" it one day where you want that much alcohol all of the sudden. You are slowly training your body to want more of it by constantly doing it. The reason people drink too much is because of some inner demons/stress/emotional upset, etc. Their body does not just crave the alcohol. It's a domino effect of behaviors. You can be snarky and/or disagree. It doesn't bother me. ETA: Lucy - Very well said and thank you for being honest about your situation. IMO those that are honest about the situation, regardless of what it is, have a much greater chance of over coming their addiction. I think the dude in the OP is playing it and will never over come it until he gets real. It takes strength though and lots of honesty. Right, but you don't "catch" depression, or being bipolar in one day, do you? Some people don't believe depression is real and those people are just wallowing, looking for pity, beling lazy, etc. There are a lot of studies that show a genetic component for alcoholism, some that show brain chemisty is different, some that have turned up people who have abnormal responses to alcohol from the very first time they try it. I do think that there are people who can drink a lot and never become alcoholics (hopefully me!) and people that can't. Kind of like some people will go out in the sun every day and get skin cancer and some won't - I don't necessarily think the one who developed skin cancer did so because they were an asshole who just couldn't control himself. Once you know you have a disease, any disease, being responsible for your treatment and how you live your life going forward is on you.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 18, 2013 15:57:42 GMT -5
No, I don't think that. I do get that addiction is a disease but you still don't "catch" it one day where you want that much alcohol all of the sudden. You are slowly training your body to want more of it by constantly doing it. The reason people drink too much is because of some inner demons/stress/emotional upset, etc. Their body does not just crave the alcohol. It's a domino effect of behaviors. You can be snarky and/or disagree. It doesn't bother me. ETA: Lucy - Very well said and thank you for being honest about your situation. IMO those that are honest about the situation, regardless of what it is, have a much greater chance of over coming their addiction. I think the dude in the OP is playing it and will never over come it until he gets real. It takes strength though and lots of honesty. Right, but you don't "catch" depression, or being bipolar in one day, do you? Some people don't believe depression is real and those people are just wallowing, looking for pity, beling lazy, etc. There are a lot of studies that show a genetic component for alcoholism, some that show brain chemisty is different, some that have turned up people who have abnormal responses to alcohol from the very first time they try it. I do think that there are people who can drink a lot and never become alcoholics (hopefully me!) and people that can't. Kind of like some people will go out in the sun every day and get skin cancer and some won't - I don't necessarily think the one who developed skin cancer did so because they were an asshole who just couldn't control himself. Once you know you have a disease, any disease, being responsible for your treatment and how you live your life going forward is on you. You are saying the same thing I just did but with different words.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 18, 2013 16:01:56 GMT -5
I read a book on neurology/neuroimaging that talks about addiction and the "it's a disease!" banner. It was really interesting because they argued the pros/cons for this approach and it gels a lot with what I learned in therapy and by talking to DH.
Too much emphasis in certain groups is placed on the "it's a disease, you can't help it" aspect. Addicts being the master manipulators they are take it and run with that. Some also just give up because "what's the point? I can't rewire my brain".
The guy in the OP sounds like he is milking it BUT it might not be a bad idea for someone to suggest to him he seek out treatment/support from someplace other than his current AA group. It might be this group's philopshy isn't a good fit for him.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 18, 2013 16:02:45 GMT -5
DH doesn't like the whole "disease" thing either because to him it sends the message that he's powerless to control his destiny. He also feels like it can alienate people you need for support because the assumption is "you can't change you have a disease" People keep saying this and I just don't get it. Does everyone suddenly equate the word disease with untreatable disease? If I said you had diabetes, but it's the kind you can improve by changing your lifestyle, would that make that sort of diabetes not a disease? I hate to find myself as a defender of alcoholism, because I am most emphatically not. I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole thing. But I see lots of people deciding it's not a real thing based on some asshole they worked with or something, and it seems to be a pretty arbitrary reason.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 18, 2013 16:08:07 GMT -5
Right, but you don't "catch" depression, or being bipolar in one day, do you? Some people don't believe depression is real and those people are just wallowing, looking for pity, beling lazy, etc. There are a lot of studies that show a genetic component for alcoholism, some that show brain chemisty is different, some that have turned up people who have abnormal responses to alcohol from the very first time they try it. I do think that there are people who can drink a lot and never become alcoholics (hopefully me!) and people that can't. Kind of like some people will go out in the sun every day and get skin cancer and some won't - I don't necessarily think the one who developed skin cancer did so because they were an asshole who just couldn't control himself. Once you know you have a disease, any disease, being responsible for your treatment and how you live your life going forward is on you. You are saying the same thing I just did but with different words. Maybe in some ways. In others we are really very much not. I think that attributing a disease more to someone's "personal demons" than to their genetics is really just another way of saying if they were just a little tougher and had more self-control they wouldn't have become an alcoholic. I get that though - I love to drink, and I certainly hope to not become an alcoholic. So I like to assume that I won't, and it could never happen to me because I have willpower.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 18, 2013 16:09:06 GMT -5
But I see lots of people deciding it's not a real thing based on some asshole they worked with or something, and it seems to be a pretty arbitrary reason.
My DH was a speed/pain pill addict for 10 years and fell off the wagon about 3 years ago (got back on quickly thank god). We're very much aware that it is a "real thing" thank you.
DH disagrees with the diease approach, that's why he never did AA/NA. He focuses more on his power to change his destiny and live life on his own terms. He may always be an addict but that doesn't mean it controls his life.
For other people it might work. Addicts are not all the same. Alcoholic A is not going to respond to the same treatment process as Alcoholic B. There is no one size fits all solution.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 18, 2013 16:12:04 GMT -5
You are saying the same thing I just did but with different words. Maybe in some ways. In others we are really very much not. I think that attributing a disease more to someone's "personal demons" than to their genetics is really just another way of saying if they were just a little tougher and had more self-control they wouldn't have become an alcoholic. I get that though - I love to drink, and I certainly hope to not become an alcoholic. So I like to assume that I won't, and it could never happen to me because I have willpower. No, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that the actual disease of depression or some form of addiction or mental illness is the disease. But those diseases did not cause the patient to wake up one day craving a 5th of Vodka (or whatever). Just like being over weight. If somebody is suffering from depression - the disease of depression does not cause the actual weight gain. It's a domino effect of why that person may have gained the weight or became addicted to alcohol but that is not a symptom caused by the disease. It's a symptom caused by the behavior in handling said disease. If that made any sense. "Personal demons" can be depression. It was meant as a generic category so that all were included and not just saying that one thing.
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 18, 2013 16:22:36 GMT -5
First of all I drink Gordon. (All this russian shit is just that ... shit!) Secondary...I drive by the AA place often and I see those...faces who are smoking neurotically and drinking coffee...and they look...not recoverable. I hope I am wrong. LOL! Don't forget all the screwing that goes on there. I used to work for an alcoholic and boy did I learn a lot from them! A friend's sister referred me to the job (she didn't know she was an alcoholic). She (the owner) would hire all these people from the bars she frequented so I met many alcoholics. They would go to AA together for the social aspects, smoking and to find partners. One chick didn't care if they were male or female. And there were actually sober people who went to AA just for the hook ups and the social times at the bars after AA. It was all very interesting and they all continued to drink. Even their sponsors. I could always tell when they were dry and really trying because they'd eat the entire basket of candy in an hour. I guess they needed the sugar. The boss always had the shakes after a bender though and also needed the candy so who knows? And guess what the job was. Federal DOT drug and alcohol testing. Not to say all are like that. Just that situation I knew about. But alcoholics and drug abusers are very manipulative people and this guy sounds like one too. I agree with others that he is full of crap and is playing it to his benefit. You re confusing Alcoholics Anonymous with Sex Addicts Anonymous.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 18, 2013 16:23:43 GMT -5
If that made any sense
Makes sense to me but what do I know? Echos what the therapist told us. We gotta recognize there is a mental component, that's why there will never be anything stronger than Tylenol in our house. But it's DH's choice to not go seek out pain pills elsewhere, he chooses other means of dealing with his demons. The banning of ephedrine helped immensely too. Thank god he never had any desire to make the leap to meth. At any rate AA or this particular group doesn't sound like a good fit for the guy in the OP if he's geninuely serious about getting and staying sober. He needs to seek out someone/thing that will work with him. OR he's one of those addicts that's taken "it's a disease" and ran with it.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 18, 2013 16:27:18 GMT -5
LOL! Don't forget all the screwing that goes on there. I used to work for an alcoholic and boy did I learn a lot from them! A friend's sister referred me to the job (she didn't know she was an alcoholic). She (the owner) would hire all these people from the bars she frequented so I met many alcoholics. They would go to AA together for the social aspects, smoking and to find partners. One chick didn't care if they were male or female. And there were actually sober people who went to AA just for the hook ups and the social times at the bars after AA. It was all very interesting and they all continued to drink. Even their sponsors. I could always tell when they were dry and really trying because they'd eat the entire basket of candy in an hour. I guess they needed the sugar. The boss always had the shakes after a bender though and also needed the candy so who knows? And guess what the job was. Federal DOT drug and alcohol testing. Not to say all are like that. Just that situation I knew about. But alcoholics and drug abusers are very manipulative people and this guy sounds like one too. I agree with others that he is full of crap and is playing it to his benefit. You re confusing Alcoholics Anonymous with Sex Addicts Anonymous. Nope. They were all alcoholics. They even said they sometimes just changed one addiction for another or added more - depending on their level of addictions. Also, many non-smokers took up smoking. Again, I'm not saying all people do that. I was discussing a particular group that I personally met through a job I once had. But I've had others tell me they experienced the same thing when they went because they said the important part of a successful recovery was where they went and many AA places were different or a bad fit. In that line of work you tend to have many conversations with mental health professionals, MRO's and other doctors, nurses, addicts, mental health facilities, lawyers, their families... Very eye opening and informative.
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Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,494
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 18, 2013 16:29:08 GMT -5
You re confusing Alcoholics Anonymous with Sex Addicts Anonymous. Nope. They were all alcoholics. They even said they just changed one addiction for another. Also, many non-smokers took up smoking. Again, I'm not saying all people do that. I was discussing a particular group that I personally met through a job I once had. But I've had others tell me they experienced the same thing when they went because they said the important part of a successful recovery was where they went and many AA places were different or a bad fit. With thank line of work you tend to have many conversations with mental health professions, MRO's and other doctors, nurses, addicts, mental health facilities, lawyers... Very eye opening. I know......I was trying to make a funny. All that hooking up and screwing and members of Sex Addicts Anonymous.
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Peace Of Mind
Senior Associate
[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:53:02 GMT -5
Posts: 15,554
Location: Paradise
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 18, 2013 16:29:32 GMT -5
Nope. They were all alcoholics. They even said they just changed one addiction for another. Also, many non-smokers took up smoking. Again, I'm not saying all people do that. I was discussing a particular group that I personally met through a job I once had. But I've had others tell me they experienced the same thing when they went because they said the important part of a successful recovery was where they went and many AA places were different or a bad fit. With thank line of work you tend to have many conversations with mental health professions, MRO's and other doctors, nurses, addicts, mental health facilities, lawyers... Very eye opening. I know......I was trying to make a funny. All that hooking up and screwing and members of Sex Addicts Anonymous. Oops! Sorry.
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