zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2013 6:36:59 GMT -5
Men don't like to live alone, period. They will hook up with the first one that comes along, even if other men are telling them not to.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 7:47:03 GMT -5
How about this.
Can you structure a prenuptual agreement to include a period of engagement?
If we assume the wedding will take place, say in 18 months, could the pre nuptial agreement be written not just to include the marriage, but to structure settlement if the engagement is broken...?
|
|
happyscooter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 5, 2011 9:04:06 GMT -5
Posts: 2,416
|
Post by happyscooter on Oct 5, 2013 8:37:02 GMT -5
how much traveling does he want to do? most companies give 2 weeks vacation a year and a few personal days. can they take long weekends? dh used to get almost 6 weeks a year and I only worked parttime, we were empty nesters. but we still didn't travel extensively.
I wouldn't do it.
|
|
Nazgul Girl
Junior Associate
Babysitting our new grandbaby 3 days a week !
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 23:25:02 GMT -5
Posts: 5,913
Today's Mood: excellent
|
Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 5, 2013 14:48:10 GMT -5
How about this. Can you structure a prenuptual agreement to include a period of engagement? If we assume the wedding will take place, say in 18 months, could the pre nuptial agreement be written not just to include the marriage, but to structure settlement if the engagement is broken...? Oped, I am not trying to be mean here, but I am a firm believer that if somebody is over the age of 21 and doesn't have a gun pointed at their head or something, they have the right to run their own love life. It's really hard to worry about them all of the time. My DD had made some choices and decisions that her stepfather and I just disagreed with. We knew that her two fiance's were mistakes, at least after we got to know the first one, and the second one also, from the get-go, but she wasn't having any negative talk from stupid old us. At this point, I just stay out of it. If family members say things to me about this and that, I have been known to comment " I'm not refereeing DD's love life. " I mean, she's 33 years old, for petesake. It's GOOD that I stay out of it.
|
|
Nazgul Girl
Junior Associate
Babysitting our new grandbaby 3 days a week !
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 23:25:02 GMT -5
Posts: 5,913
Today's Mood: excellent
|
Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 5, 2013 14:53:34 GMT -5
The loaded came after he was already legally separated from the last one. He has not always left marriages financially secure. He does have good advisors... If he listens to them. He has a good advisor in YOU, but he most likely won't listen. If he has a problem with over-optimism, which he apparently does, you're wasting your breath. But, he's your dad, and you love him, so your feelings are entirely understandable. As far as her, I think she's nuts. If he truly loved her, she could ask him to wait until she retired in four years. But, if she's a gold digger, and I think she might be, she won't wait. Both are really making big mistakes here, but, well, what can you do ?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 15:14:33 GMT -5
I am wasting my breath. Sigh.
I also know I can say this once. Which is why I'm trying to get my wording right. The other morning I called, we just brushed the surface and he said we wold talk.
I originally got the news in an email he sent to me, sis and about 5 close friends. It was a defensive letter... He said he knew people wouldn't be immediately happy.
I do feel like he asks my advice. I also don't feel I can give blanket congratulations and be honest/sincere.
i will say my well calculated piece and then I'll let it go.
Sigh.
Thanks for the advice.
He is a grown ass man... Some times I wish he'd act like it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 15:16:03 GMT -5
Gift Certificate for a therapist & an attorney?
I guess I would have a heart to heart with him that he "falls for women" far too rapidly and would he do you the extreme favor of dating for a year before venturing into the marriage thing? And talking to a marriage counselor (on his own) about what is happening that he jumps so fast and then finds out it isn't working not too long after. Just tell him you are worried about the emotional fall out of the marriage crash & burn.
He might not listen, but I think you can do this in a caring way. Seems like his coping mechanism is "move on to the next one".
Why does he feel he has to hurry them into marriage & not working? Just so he can get the most out of them before they figure out the relationship isn't working? Not sure why some guys have this 'gotta get married' thing but I think it is some kind of insecurity or fear of being alone.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 15:22:01 GMT -5
The loaded came after he was already legally separated from the last one. He has not always left marriages financially secure. He does have good advisors... If he listens to them. He has a good advisor in YOU, but he most likely won't listen. If he has a problem with over-optimism, which he apparently does, you're wasting your breath. But, he's your dad, and you love him, so your feelings are entirely understandable. As far as her, I think she's nuts. If he truly loved her, she could ask him to wait until she retired in four years. But, if she's a gold digger, and I think she might be, she won't wait. Both are really making big mistakes here, but, well, what can you do ? What makes you think she's a gold digger rather than a sensible person? If an older guy asked me to be his girlfriend/travelling partner and quit my job, I'd tell him he's nuts to think I'd quit my job without even being married. I'd laugh it off, but if he ran off and plotted getting married as an alternative, he might be surprised to find out I wouldn't quit then either. There'd have to be a "replacement of my income guarantee in the prenup" with monthly payments to even get me to take quitting seriously. Which also means I'd have to see all his accounts, D&B etc. No way I'm giving up my good income to trot around the world unless he seriously replaces it. That's not gold digging, its sense. Also no way I think I'd ever end up with an offer like that
|
|
Nazgul Girl
Junior Associate
Babysitting our new grandbaby 3 days a week !
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 23:25:02 GMT -5
Posts: 5,913
Today's Mood: excellent
|
Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 5, 2013 15:27:04 GMT -5
It's hard, Oped. Serious, painful, and useless if they want sympathy instead of (whatever ) wisdom one can offer. Sometimes, people like difficult, dramatic relationships. Sometimes, there's a personality disorder within. We can always love them, but we can't fix them.
I just got an awful phone call from a family member whom I'm very close to. That person thought I "did' something on facebook, which was really my innocent response to a "notification" that was sent to me. I'm not the swiftest thing on facebook technology, and my response was to the post about the family member missing a trip to the cider mill.
I just got yelled at for about fifteen minutes about what I " did. " I shut the call down, with some words that had to get harsh because they wouldn't back off. The person has some emotional problems and they are surfacing again.
It's just sad. I can love the person, and I do so much, but I can't fix the person. I truly, and sadly, wish I could.
If this crap happens any more, and it's been happening for awhile, I guess I'll have to shut my facebook account down. Or, I might just put them on ignore.
That would work better and get me some peace in the valley.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 15:27:14 GMT -5
I think it is. I think he is a 'new person' when he is dating. I think there is a subconscious need to 'lock them in' before he tuns into a big old pumpkin.
What he tells himself is that he's found 'the one' and it will be perfect and he doesn't want to wait one more minute for it to be perfect... And obviously this time is different... This woman is perfect, the best, the most...
I don't understand why he hasn't realized it doesn't work.
I don't know why he doesn't realize that it isn't just about the 'perfect' woman... He is there too...
I think I feel like if I find a viable alternative that lets him get what he wants without getting married... Then he'll have to admit to himself that this isn't the 'real' reason. I know I'm mostly dreaming.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 15:30:49 GMT -5
Thanks Nazgul.
|
|
Nazgul Girl
Junior Associate
Babysitting our new grandbaby 3 days a week !
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 23:25:02 GMT -5
Posts: 5,913
Today's Mood: excellent
|
Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 5, 2013 15:33:29 GMT -5
I think that we're kind of saying the same thing, Rock It. I'm trying to say that if he truly loves this woman and cares about her well-being as well as his, then he'll wait for her to retire instead of pressuring her to quit her job. If she quits without financial security in place ( from him ), then she's stupid and she's desperate and a gold-digger.
I think she would be wise to make sure there is financial recompense in place if she decides to continue the relationship. I don't consider taking financial precautions before quitting her job to be gold-digging. I consider that to be common sense, given that he has such a miserable marital record.
|
|
Nazgul Girl
Junior Associate
Babysitting our new grandbaby 3 days a week !
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 23:25:02 GMT -5
Posts: 5,913
Today's Mood: excellent
|
Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 5, 2013 15:37:08 GMT -5
I think my DD kind of operates like that, too, Oped. I believe it's a way to keep themselves from being hurt.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2013 15:55:23 GMT -5
Ok. Now he says he doesnt need a prenup because all he has is pre marital property and he won't commingle and stuff in trusts and co ownership with us girls will automatically be protected if he divorces.
He also told me 'so what' if it doesnt work out.
Swamp, I know you are NY, not Florida, but am I right to be worried about this approach?
He said he would talk to his lawyer, but as he said it in the voice I dont trust, I'm not counting on it...
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,617
|
Post by swamp on Oct 13, 2013 15:58:10 GMT -5
. Swamp, I know you are NY, not Florida, but am I right to be worried about this approach? .. Yes.
|
|
Nazgul Girl
Junior Associate
Babysitting our new grandbaby 3 days a week !
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 23:25:02 GMT -5
Posts: 5,913
Today's Mood: excellent
|
Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 13, 2013 18:15:36 GMT -5
Well, Oped, you have tried to sensibly discuss it with him. I'm sorry it's not gone too well. Maybe down the road, he'll figure out that guarding his finances may be as important as guarding his heart.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,720
|
Post by midjd on Oct 13, 2013 18:37:49 GMT -5
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 15,008
Member is Online
|
Post by raeoflyte on Oct 13, 2013 19:39:05 GMT -5
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2013 7:28:32 GMT -5
Uh, DF is in Michigan and even though his mom left him stuff and it was never co-mingled, because of his no pre nup, he had to fight tooth and nail to keep it. He told his EX he would go to court over it. His lawyer said there was a good chance he'd keep it but not for sure.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 7:46:15 GMT -5
Well, I may have officially allientated my father.
He sent me and sis an email with this Teddy Roosevelt quote:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
And I sent him back this Teddy Roosevelt quote:
“If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month.”
I need to let this go. I don't know why its hitting me so hard.... I've been crying for a week now. My pychologist sister says its because we go through feelings of abandonment every time we are dismissed again as flawed and set aside for the new version of perfection... but usually i just laugh at her... and honestly, i'm 40 years old.
I do think i'll ask him to transfer the kids 529 plans to my name. He holds them currently. I honestly don't care about any inheritance issues... i just don't want him to be financially insecure in the future. That woudl be the best gift. However, i feel like he made a promise with the 529 plans...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 12:03:56 GMT -5
You are right Rukh. I know. I will try to to that next week. I think i need a few days.
I'm just so tired. The only thing more upsetting than the "But this time is different and everything is perfect' conversation is the 'you were right, i should have listened conversation'. I guess i felt that if i was more forceful this time, maybe he'd actually listen. But ultimately, i know. you are right. I have to let this go.
My goal with the 529 plans would be to essentially make money not an object. I really don't care if he removes me from trusts, accounts, etc. Sis and I are apparently equal partners in llcs with him that own the properties? I dont even understand it, but anyway i don't care if that all goes away. I do care about the 529 plans. I don't want to ever feel like i'm not saying something because i want to protect some financial interest. or alternately have my father feel like my actions are being controlled by my feelings about money. So, if the 529 plans were in my name and couldn't be changed. Then t wouldn't feel any money twinges at all, if that makes sense.
Zib, i don't want to be negative here, but i have to say that the way you talk about your fiance's kids, etc. make me worry about a new wife changing the mind of the husband about his grandkids accounts. I don't see my father ever doing that... but then he's changed his mind so much already in the last six months... and I just don't know her...
Ultimately i probably won't say anything about the 529 plans. I will do as Rukh suggests and play nice. Although sometimes i wonder why in the heck it seems like i'm the one who always has to play nice to maintain relationships... and if its necessary than are they really relationships worth maintaining...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 13:35:20 GMT -5
It's not like i've been harping to him about it. He actually has gone out of his way to not be alone with me since the telephone call when I tentatively tried to initiate and he said 'we'll talk about it'. It wasn't until yesterday that i got a chance to really discuss it. Afterwards I did send an email because i wanted to clarify a few things. Sometimes i write better than i speak, and frankly sometimes his reading comprehension is better than his listening comprehension. It was at this time I asked him about the prenup, which he had told me before was the reason i shouldn't worry, was not likely to happen.
I wanted to clarify my position, that I was just asking about the possibility of a 15 month engagement instead of 3, and not 'sentencing him to a lifetime without companionship'... he emailed back clarifying his position and why he scheduled the wedding when i wasnt going to be there because it is a time of JOY and not ambvilance. And then he forwarded an email from a friend he obviously shared the whole string of conversation with, in which friend was supporting dad and dad's position and basically called me a 'timid soul' whose thoughts weren't worth worrying about sharing another Teddy quote about the "poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat." ...
That ticked me off. So i got a little pissy and threw in my own quote. That's been it.
Sorry for all the sucky details. I should just stop now I know.
Anyway, i haven't been going on and on to him personally.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,617
|
Post by swamp on Oct 14, 2013 13:37:40 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but a 5th wedding isn't a time of Joy, it's a time of "what the fuck are you thinking?"
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 13:39:36 GMT -5
6th
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,617
|
Post by swamp on Oct 14, 2013 13:41:05 GMT -5
Oy vey. That's even worse. Once you get the 3, just give it up.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 15,008
Member is Online
|
Post by raeoflyte on Oct 14, 2013 13:49:33 GMT -5
Especially after reading the email he forwarded to you with those kinds of opinions I'd have to wish him well and cut off contact, or at least not initiate contact for quite some time.
Honestly if you are getting married for the 6th time you should expect some flack especially from the people who have helped you clean up after the previous divorces.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2013 14:56:40 GMT -5
I'm the one who made him divide his estate equally between his former step kids and his bio kid to begin with. Then he decided to leave his share to his grandchildren instead, which is fine by me as well and his ex agreed, since she has to agree or he couldn't. Actually, being around his kids who were handed everything on a silver platter and still have issues, makes me feel better about myself who always worried that my kids missed out on STUFF because we didn't have e resources after the divorce that we had before. Obviously silver spoon in mouths does not make a person good after all.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 10:26:04 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 15:27:28 GMT -5
As one of DH's relatives said to my MIL after her 3rd divorce, "Marriage isn't something you do well". It's good that your father is going to see his lawyer. Hopefully s/he can give him a head slap ala Gibbs. But it is possible that your father could be right depending on how things are titled. DFIL's 3rd wife only got what they saved together, + about $100k out of an invasion of the family (DH's grandmother's) Trust in order to purchase a home which was titled as community property with right of survivorship. 7 year marriage which sounds like your father's average. No prenup. Life insurance and military pension was part of the divorce agreement with wife #2. Although it wasn't an easy process dealing with the "greeding" widow, it definitely could have been worse. She seemed to have a real problem comprehending that once the income stream died, she didn't have the lifestyle to which she had become accustomed. She should have done her homework.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2013 17:06:00 GMT -5
Which is another reason prenups are a good idea because its there, in writing what is going to happen if and when.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,617
|
Post by swamp on Oct 14, 2013 18:41:45 GMT -5
Oped and Swamp - I do agree that this likely isn't going to be a happily ever after. However - Oped's dad has the right to do as he sees fit, and as long as he's doing it - the happy couple should proceed in a spirit of joy and expectant happiness. The happy couple can proceed in a spirit of joy. The rest of us are going to sit back and place bets as to how long the marriage will last.
|
|