Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,242
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Sept 16, 2013 8:40:32 GMT -5
I figured I'd better read/skim it since many people are commenting on what they think it says versus what they've actually read.
From the link: She will be in a near occasion of sin. Just think of the environment that college-age students live in. You have a heavy concentration of young people all living together without the supervision of parents at the most sexually charged state of life they will experience. How can one expect that anyone would be able to avoid these temptations, even on a Catholic college campus much less a secular one? So if it is unnecessary for one to be in a near occasion of sin, is it prudent to willingly put oneself there? This is no small matter we’re dealing with here. Is a degree worth the loss of your daughter’s purity, dignity, and soul? Catholic OB-GYN Dr. Kim Hardey notes that a woman is naturally very observant of a man’s faults as long as she is in a platonic relationship with him. Once she becomes sexually active with him, she releases hormones that mask his faults, and she remains in a dreamy state about him. We can see why God would arrange things in such a way so that when in a proper state of holy matrimony, she would be less sensitive to his faults and thereby less tempted to be critical of him. But before marriage she should be very sensitive to the complete reality of the man she will enter into a lifetime commitment with. It is one thing to advise our daughter of this reality in ordinary situations, but placing her into an environment that will tempt her to lose this barrier is unfair to her.
Given that men going to college are going to have that same temptation and opportunity to sin I wonder what the author would say about that. Historically men have put restraints on women's behavior because they prefer to believe women are temptressess versus acknowledging their own lack of control. So is it OK for college Christian men to cheat?
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 8:53:24 GMT -5
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 8:53:34 GMT -5
Given that men going to college are going to have that same temptation and opportunity to sin I wonder what the author would say about that. Historically men have put restraints on women's behavior because they prefer to believe women are temptressess versus acknowledging their own lack of control. So is it OK for college Christian men to cheat? The unspoken consensus is that men are going to be men and men want sex, so that's just them doing what comes naturally to them. It's the woman's job to not tempt the men and then to resist their advances. If sex does happen, it's the woman's fault because she either tempted him, allowed herself to be in a situation where that could happen or didn't resist. That theory - as ugly as it sounds when stated starkly like that - is what underpins even current justice proceedings when it comes to rape... men will be men and it's the girls' job to avoid that obviously immutable natural truth, apparently. It's why we still talk about what a rape victim was wearing. It's why we still ask why a rape victim was __________ (drinking, at a party, walking in that neighborhood, dating that guy, staying with an abusive partner, etc). It's why Muslim countries require women to wear burkas. It's why under Sharia law, a man cannot be convicted of rape unless 4 Muslim men witnessed the act and will testify. It's why whenever an abusive husband injures or kills his wife, we ask why she stayed with such a man. And on and on and on. As it has been, so shall it ever be. And it isn't helping that these beliefs - and the beliefs that put women in an inferior position by definition and design - are perpetuated by organized religion.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,242
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Sept 16, 2013 8:54:45 GMT -5
I do not think the above has been true for awhile. While it is highly likely the majority of women have more gender typed roles than the US, Canada and Europe for example, I think the women as property is actually now a minority view. The two most populous nations India and China are not homogenous in their treatment of women. Both countries have a rising class of working women probably concentrated in cities like Mumbai and Beijing where the majority or their population lives. Views have been evolving for quite sometime and if all women were really viewed as property in these countries it would be hard to explain even simple things like actresses from both countries traveling and filming internationally without family handlers. Yes there are still horror stories in both countries although more in India I think than China. But like the author of the blog I think they have become the minority view in their country.
Plus, because the rulers for example believe X, does not mean the ruled do. Slaves for example may be defined legally as property in places, but I doubt the average slave believes they are property.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 4:22:51 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 8:58:33 GMT -5
In the Indian courts where we adopted our daughter, I was listed as my husband's property.
I do not believe it has become the minority yet in India. They still have a long long way to go IMHO.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 4:22:51 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 9:02:38 GMT -5
Better not send them to high school either...
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,242
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Sept 16, 2013 9:04:34 GMT -5
I don't think it needs to be forever or that it even necessarily will be. Those beliefs were codified in my opinion not by God but by the men who interpreted what they believe God was telling them. Yes I know some men and some religious folk want to foist all the good behavior onto women and require little to none for men, but some of us reject that. I know some male STEM types who have self control just as strong as any woman.
Some day most people will acknowledge that all their actions good and bad are controlled by them alone. Yes there are influences, but in the end if no unreasonable force is applied, if you assault, rape, murder, drink to excess, etc. the only one you should ever blame is you. Those that resist that truth don't want to be real grownups. I include the blog author in that group.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,242
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Sept 16, 2013 9:10:54 GMT -5
Another fun snippet: She will not learn to be a wife and mother. Nothing that is taught in a college curriculum is geared toward domestic homemaking. On the contrary, it is training in a very masculine role of a professional career. So there becomes a severe inner conflict in a woman when she starts trying to be a homemaker and juggle a career alongside it. Often when a career woman discerns the possibility of giving up her career, she faces the reality that she has had no training in homemaking and often has the thought “What would I do at home all day.” Stay-at-home mothers are actually very busy industrious women and do absolutely beautiful marvelous things. Surely the business world severely undervalues those things they do, but the value to a family is beyond monetary compensation. These abilities cannot be learned in any college. If you haven't learned any home-making skills from Mom before you reach 18 is Mom suddenly going to impart her skills now just because you don't go to college? Having gone to a college with lots of ag related coursework, I think our author is a bit unknowledgeable on what one can learn. My university had lots of courses related to home economics and had I known, I might have taken some courses that dealt with the actual chemical reactions in baking for example.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,242
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Sept 16, 2013 9:25:54 GMT -5
Where in India was the court located? And when did this happen? I agree they still have a long way to go. However, I watch lots of Bollywood cinema and dealt with quite a few Indian women who were living in India and who temporarily worked in the US with me in the last few years. Laws change much slower than actual social behaviors. Witness the fact that every once in awhile someone points out all the sodomy and similar laws still on the books in various states and cities.
Related by slightly OT, pets are considered property legally. Yet on these boards some consider them furbabies and some posters feel perhaps the ownership goes the other way - humans owned by cats. Legal status is important and what you experienced is obviously a sign things need to move forward at least on a legal level. Given what I know from personal experience I do think at least socially the viewpoint has tipped into women not being property or being property of the parents much like sons who are not yet financially independent often are in Indian and quite a few Asian cultures. Most of India and China is better IMO than many of the less populous Arabic countries.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Sept 16, 2013 9:27:52 GMT -5
Actually, the idea/concept that women and children are not chattel (property) is a relatively new one (what - about 200 years or so?) and it isn't even accepted all around the world. Most people are aware of the information you have provided. The person in the article and the article is what is the topic of the thread. Not someone's impression of God. Just stick to the facts mam. (Bet you don't know where that quote came from!!!!) I'll give you .26 cents if you can tell me. The author of the article is using his interpretation of god and his religion as the basis for the entire article! Maybe you should READ the article before telling other posters what they are allowed to comment on?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 4:22:51 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 9:29:07 GMT -5
Better not send them to high school either... exactly! Why ever let them out of the house - the near occasion for sin is everywhere And don't let them look to teen shows for role models. Like that Saved by the Bell girl that became a stripper.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,242
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Sept 16, 2013 9:35:19 GMT -5
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Sept 16, 2013 9:36:19 GMT -5
We are in times that women have to be able to care for themselves, if the need arises. We are also in times when many women want to work, whether the need arises or not. I don't need to read the article. It's been done a million times. The gist of the thought process is a man thinks he should be in charge and his 'wife' needs to listen to his every word. The woman's part is to figure out when listening is appropriate and when she laughs in his face. Sweetly, of course. That doesn't really appear to be the gist of the article. It was not the intention of these freedoms to be misused, though. Freedom does not mean sleeping around or getting drunk every night. It means freedom of thought and ideas and respect for those things- among others. An eqaual partnership to create a peaceful environment. If you're determined to put limits on my freedom, is it really freedom? Also, I looked up "freedom" in the dictionary - and you're wrong.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 4:22:51 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 9:36:42 GMT -5
Where in India was the court located? And when did this happen? I agree they still have a long way to go. However, I watch lots of Bollywood cinema and dealt with quite a few Indian women who were living in India and who temporarily worked in the US with me in the last few years. Laws change much slower than actual social behaviors. Witness the fact that every once in awhile someone points out all the sodomy and similar laws still on the books in various states and cities. Related by slightly OT, pets are considered property legally. Yet on these boards some consider them furbabies and some posters feel perhaps the ownership goes the other way - humans owned by cats. Legal status is important and what you experienced is obviously a sign things need to move forward at least on a legal level. Given what I know from personal experience I do think at least socially the viewpoint has tipped into women not being property or being property of the parents much like sons who are not yet financially independent often are in Indian and quite a few Asian cultures. Most of India and China is better IMO than many of the less populous Arabic countries. The adoption was finalized in 2006 and it was in New Delhi. I have several friends (Indian) that live in India. The laws are actually changing faster than society. For example, wife burning is against the law, yet many tribal areas and even some cases in New Delhi show that it still happens at a horrible rate. Also the dowry system is supposed to be against the law, but it still is practiced in many parts of India. Maybe the metropolitan women you have met have been lucky to be from a wonderfully progressive area. Unfortunately most of India is not like them. I have been part of a charity for the last 7 years that helps women and children in India and the reports I see coming from the charity is enough to make you just sit down and cry. They still kill female babies there. They still burn brides there. They still force young girls to marry old men there. Many parts of India have not changed even though the laws have.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 9:46:01 GMT -5
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 9:46:19 GMT -5
And don't let them look to teen shows for role models. Like that Saved by the Bell girl that became a stripper. IMHO this is another example of boys will be boys and that's OK, but it's a big deal when women do anything sexual outside of a traditional marriage. We remember that one of the girls on Saved by the Bell became a stripper, but no mention is made of the boy from Saved by the Bell who went on to make a porno film - with an underage girl (and no, this was not a boyfriend/younger girlfriend situation.) I'm not saying I'd be thrilled for a daughter to become a stripper, but it's not as icky as being in a porno, yet the example we remember is when the female star is a stripper, not when the male star becomes a porn star.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Sept 16, 2013 9:48:42 GMT -5
I agree. The purpose of freedom is choice. To do as you see fit with your life - and if for some reason, that includes drunken debauchery - it's a free country! The more I go back and read her post, the more it cracks me up. "My generation gave you freedom! Now here is how you have to use it...."
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 4:22:51 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 9:49:07 GMT -5
The Saved by the Bell girl did a movie with frontal nudity (Showgirls). I don't think she actually became a stripper.
|
|
mrsdutt
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 12, 2012 7:39:38 GMT -5
Posts: 2,097
|
Post by mrsdutt on Sept 16, 2013 9:51:10 GMT -5
My views are my own. Just keep in mind it was my generation that broke down the barriers for yours to have more freedoms. It was not the intention of these freedoms to be misused, though. Freedom does not mean sleeping around or getting drunk every night. It means freedom of thought and ideas and respect for those things- among others. And I'll refer back to the first line highlighted. These are YOUR views. Particularly your definition of freedom. And my dear, it wasn't your generation alone that broke down barriers. That has been an evolutionary process that began thousands of years ago. It is still developing simply because the human spirit seeks freedom. I respect that you hold your own personal opinions, that is your right as it is for each individual. But be aware that some of your statements might sound as ridiculous to others as the article did. You have not cornered the market on the "right" way to live any more so than anyone else. And each of us must walk our own path. The most effective witness for faith that I have observed is when one doesn't frame comments in adversarial fashion but provide their love and actions as a guide. Usually the most inspiring amongst us are those that say the least but do the most. I never thought I cornered the market. I was under the impression this board was a free exchange of ideas. I stand corrected. I will no longer give opinions on anything. Thank you for putting me in my place. And, don't 'my dear' me. It's offensive. Then you all wonder why posting is low.
|
|
mrsdutt
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 12, 2012 7:39:38 GMT -5
Posts: 2,097
|
Post by mrsdutt on Sept 16, 2013 9:54:57 GMT -5
Most people are aware of the information you have provided. The person in the article and the article is what is the topic of the thread. Not someone's impression of God. Just stick to the facts mam. (Bet you don't know where that quote came from!!!!) I'll give you .26 cents if you can tell me. The author of the article is using his interpretation of god and his religion as the basis for the entire article! Maybe you should READ the article before telling other posters what they are allowed to comment on? That was said in jest. See the ?
|
|
mrsdutt
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 12, 2012 7:39:38 GMT -5
Posts: 2,097
|
Post by mrsdutt on Sept 16, 2013 9:55:14 GMT -5
Most people are aware of the information you have provided. The person in the article and the article is what is the topic of the thread. Not someone's impression of God. Just stick to the facts mam. (Bet you don't know where that quote came from!!!!) I'll give you .26 cents if you can tell me. The author of the article is using his interpretation of god and his religion as the basis for the entire article! Maybe you should READ the article before telling other posters what they are allowed to comment on? That was said in jest. See the ?
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,242
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Sept 16, 2013 9:58:28 GMT -5
I am aware of this. And I may be wrong in my perception that the tide has turned and things like the above will continue to happen less often. When I first started working after college in the mid 80s I met the occasional techie male from India. I'd say around 2000 or so women techies from India started showing up in the US in noticeable numbers. Its a very diverse country and having talked to various co-workers it seems experiences are very regional in many ways. Those from the south in areas heavily populated with Christian and Catholic churches are the easiest for me to relate to viewpoint-wise. And some Indian males are very gender typed and will go on and on about how women shouldn't bare their arms etc. I find that odd in that most commercial Bollywood films in my opinion are very sexualized and over-expose their female stars even though most still will portray no more than kisses and hugs if the characters are not yet married.
Its a country that in some ways mirrors NYC and its various neighborhoods. Its not that cohesive and languages and customs vary depending on where you are. Obviously any women who has come here even briefly and even those working in India with US companies are part of the moving forward portion of India.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 4:22:51 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 10:02:41 GMT -5
And don't let them look to teen shows for role models. Like that Saved by the Bell girl that became a stripper. IMHO this is another example of boys will be boys and that's OK, but it's a big deal when women do anything sexual outside of a traditional marriage. We remember that one of the girls on Saved by the Bell became a stripper, but no mention is made of the boy from Saved by the Bell who went on to make a porno film - with an underage girl (and no, this was not a boyfriend/younger girlfriend situation.) I'm not saying I'd be thrilled for a daughter to become a stripper, but it's not as icky as being in a porno, yet the example we remember is when the female star is a stripper, not when the male star becomes a porn star. Or that I never knew someone from SBTB was in a porno... IMHO this is another example of what assumptions get you.
|
|
bean29
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 22:26:57 GMT -5
Posts: 10,201
Member is Online
|
Post by bean29 on Sept 16, 2013 10:09:47 GMT -5
I hope this is the view of extremist catholics.
My Mom's friends. 1) Has a masters degree in English. Taught College courses a bit but never tried to work until after she had 8 kids and found out her DH had been having an affair for about 10 years. The Men from Church who played baseball with her DH had known about the affair for years. After they divorced when people from their group of firends had parties they invided both Mom's friend and her Ex and his new wife, so Mom's friend did not go until I commented to my Mom that it seemed a strange example for people to set for their children. Then this family seemed to rethink their invite list and leave the ex DH off the list. Mom's friend had never gotten certified to teach Elementary Ed or MS, HS and had trouble getting anythign other than an occasional college course to teach. She ended up low paid clerical help. She is late 60's early 70's and still working.
2) Was a Nun, left the Convent. Got married, had 3 children with her DH. They got involved in the Charismatic Renewal. He had an affair with another woman from the group. Friend is still Married to him. Barf.
3) Another friend of my Mom's when her husband retired without consulting her he took the 100% option on his pension leaving her with no survivor's benefit. He died with a year of electing that option. He was late 50's. She was too young to start collecting SS.
4) Another woman from church - her husband is a Deacon. I think he is real controlling - but not really sure where problems are in their marriage but they are Mid -late 60's and just filed for divorce.
I have a cousin - College educated - have a very good paying job. Her DH also had a good paying job at same company. They had 4 kids. He had an affair with their 15 year old babysitter. He was prosecuded and is considered a Sex offender. He lost his job and of course they got divorced. I a m pretty sure she pays him alimony. She ended up with the house but they built around the same time we did in 2005 so I am pretty sure there was no equity and it was hard for her to make payment on her own. She just sold it and is finally in a better place.
Most of my Female cousins went to college and are from Devout Catholic families. Most are working too. The ones that don't work are still sending their DD's to college so I have to agree that this is like an extremest sect.
But, I have moved away from the catholic church, between their response to pedophiles and sexual abuse of minors espcially the abuse of Deaf/Mute students at St. John's school for the Deaf in WI and their attitude tword Woman and their refusal to let women be priests or have an equal role in the church I can't bring my kids up in that environment. They are all about the coverup and they are not truly repentant imo.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 10:11:10 GMT -5
From The World Factbook (these are as of 2012/13, so reflect current birthrates.) Sex ratio at birth has recently emerged as an indicator of certain kinds of sex discrimination in some countries. For instance, high sex ratios at birth in some Asian countries are now attributed to sex-selective abortion and infanticide due to a strong preference for sons. China at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female 0-14 years: 1.17 male(s)/female 15-24 years: 1.11 male(s)/female 25-54 years: 1.05 male(s)/female 55-64 years: 1.03 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 0.92 male(s)/female total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2013 est.) India at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female 0-14 years: 1.13 male(s)/female 15-24 years: 1.12 male(s)/female 25-54 years: 1.06 male(s)/female 55-64 years: 1.01 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 0.91 male(s)/female total population: 1.08 male(s)/female (2013 est.) United States at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female 0-14 years: 1.04 male(s)/female 15-24 years: 1.04 male(s)/female 25-54 years: 1 male(s)/female 55-64 years: 0.93 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 0.77 male(s)/female total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2013 est.) www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2018.html
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 10:14:43 GMT -5
And just because you're meeting more female professionals from India doesn't mean that they are treated as equals.
When I was in school, I was in awe of a gorgeous, smart girl a few years ahead of me. Her father was a Cardiologist and although her family was very traditional Indian, she was born and raised in America. She went to Harvard and also became a Cardiologist. She's in her mid-40s and is married to a man that her parents arranged for her because there weren't any suitable men in America. This marriage was arranged in the '90s, so not that long ago. Her daughter is now in the class of my son and I wonder if she'll have an arranged marriage, too.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Sept 16, 2013 10:14:58 GMT -5
The author of the article is using his interpretation of god and his religion as the basis for the entire article! Maybe you should READ the article before telling other posters what they are allowed to comment on? That was said in jest. See the ? Which part was supposed to be funny?
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 10:20:31 GMT -5
He had an affair with their 15 year old babysitter. He was prosecuded and is considered a Sex offender. Because this is not "an affair". It is rape. Calling it "an affair" minimizes it. An adult male that preys on a minor over which he has power and authority isn't romancing her, he's grooming and then victimizing her. And the exact same thing is true for adult women who prey on underage boys. Kind of like the CNN headline today about the 8 year old who "died after her wedding night". The headline should be "8 year old raped, dies as a result of injuries." This is not "child marriage", this is child abuse and we need to use the right language.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 10:20:41 GMT -5
He had an affair with their 15 year old babysitter. He was prosecuded and is considered a Sex offender. Because this is not "an affair". It is rape. Calling it "an affair" minimizes it. An adult male that preys on a minor over which he has power and authority isn't romancing her, he's grooming and then victimizing her. And the exact same thing is true for adult women who prey on underage boys. Kind of like the CNN headline today about the 8 year old who "died after her wedding night". The headline should be "8 year old raped, dies as a result of injuries." This is not "child marriage", this is child abuse and we need to use the right language.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Sept 16, 2013 10:23:13 GMT -5
Or that I never knew someone from SBTB was in a porno... IMHO this is another example of what assumptions get you. Worth exploring. But there's also the possibility that even the fact that you didn't know is because society and the media have made a big, huge deal about the girl's actions (because that's shocking!) and haven't given the same extensive coverage to the boy's actions (because boys will be boys... who are those sluts that agreed to do the video with him, anyways?)
|
|