tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 19, 2013 20:32:02 GMT -5
I had a similar situation years ago. A friend's girlfriend had been out drinking (something she did often and didn't handle well.) On her return, she was trashing his house and I think hit him too. He did not want to call the police. She did, however, call them even though she was the one drunk and out of control. There is a mandatory arrest policy in Washington, and he was taken to jail based on what she told the police. He got bailed out, and (I'm not sure about all of the details here) went home (I think to get medications.) She had spent the time while he was jailed bringing other people into his house and doing drugs there with them. Somehow, the police ended up there again, and he was again arrested.
This time, he called me to go down and I posted bond for him. I offered him a deal. If he agreed to her and not see her again, he didn't have to repay me for posting the bond. If he took her back, he had to pay double. Unfortunately, he didn't take the bet. But the point here is that it is not necessarily the one causing trouble who ends up in legal trouble. Your brother needs to be very careful.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 19, 2013 21:01:23 GMT -5
Swamp I get what you're saying but this is WRONG on so many levels. It's attitudes like this that allow women to use men as punching bags. If the roles were reversed and you said that about a man beating on a woman all the feminazies would be up in arms demanding the laws/societies perceptions change NOW!!! Police should take DV seriously, regardless of whom is on the receiving end. I didn't say it was right, but it's reality. Swamp - we may not always see eye to eye, but I 100% respect your honesty, candor, and what you do to ensure our system is the best in the world.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 19, 2013 21:06:43 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure in PA that the police can press charges if there is evidence of domestic violdence, even if the spouse doesn't. Or maybe that is another state...I think he SHOULD file charges but if he doesn't want to I probably wouldn't call the cops. And holy Hell...why does he stay with this woman? I have said over and over that I can't imagine stayihg with my husband if he ever hit me...well I also can't see my husband staying with me if I ever hit him. And she sounds like a mean drunk...no one likes a mean drunk
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Aug 19, 2013 23:11:21 GMT -5
I totally agree with swamp. Don't call the cops but document everything. Did people at his job see her drunk there? get their names. Something like this happened to my uncle. His GF stole money from his bank account and when he called her out on it, she got angry (she was a drunk) and followed him around the house, screaming at him and getting in his face (He was trying to get his work tools and clothes together to get out of the house). After like 10 minutes of being chased around and screamed at (By the person who stole from you!), he pushed her away from him onto their bed. He then left but it didn't end there. She called the cops and told them he "choked her until she was unconscious" 3 times and said he was going to kill her. The cops came to our grandma's house, where he was asleep, and arrested him for attempted murder. The pics they took even have her smiling (who smiles 1 hour after you were "almost killed"?). He told the police what really happened and how sorry he was he pushed her but they didn't care. The case went on for 2 years, where he ended up pleading down to assault. She insisted that she was "scared of him" but she was constantly calling his children trying to get him to contact her (A protective order was automatically issued). She sent him bunches of letters in jail, covered in her lipstick, begging for him back and saying she was going to tell the DA the truth (It never happened of course). She denied all this and got rid of all of his personal belongings, tools, furniture, etc. By the time he sued her for his stuff back, she perjured herself in court ("I had no idea where he was so I had no choice but to get rid of all his stuff"- out come the phone bills where she was harassing his kids and letters from jail that she sent). The whole situation was ridiculous and made a mockery of people who really get abused...
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 19, 2013 23:22:46 GMT -5
Hoops this is not a good situation. I had a BIL get divorced several years ago. Accusations were made against members of DH's family for various reasons - whatever ex sil thought she could get away with. Mil was babysitting so she accused Mil of abusing her kids. Mil was my daycare provider and super loving and competent. Bil and his brothers were accused of attacking her dad. Accusation came on labor day weekend. Bil spent weekend in jail before he got hearing and case was dismissed. Two of his brothers were also accused of participating and were questioned by police. Next she accused one of my SIL's of stalking her, threatening her and driving up and down her street. Bil and sil lived 2 blocks away so going to school, store or taking kids to friends houses would take her past her house. When my sil got to court, ex sil had her mother there and mother backed up ex sil's story so the judge granted the restraining order. Try to co-ordinate holidays when one party can not be in vicinity of the other. It is a pia. If we ever have someone in the family accused of anything again we will show up in court en mass.
Your brother should seperate from this person. He should go to al-anon/get counseling. My BIL's life is pretty smooth now that divorce is final. It was prob largely negotiating tactic. We are shocked at the things she got away with and don't trust the authorities like se used to.
Sent from my MB855 using proboards
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Aug 20, 2013 1:18:43 GMT -5
Okay, since you have questions now, I would call the police non-emergency line, and ask. Then if/when it happens again, you'll have good information (reasonably good, I would hope!), based on your area, so you can make an informed decision about what to do or say. I have done this, and found it to be very helpful. Sorry for what you're all going through. Nice that your brother knew, even though she's not your most favorite person, he could still come to you. You're a !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 5:35:02 GMT -5
He should not drive her anywhere when she is drunk and out of her mind.
He should have left the house, not tried to restrain her. He can leave & then call the police to report her drunk/disorderly/dangerous. He may not restrain her. How would anyone know/believe that he restrained her after her going out of control as opposed to before?
He should research and find a DV attorney now. Having his incident on report with an attorney now might help him in the future. However, if he chooses to 'stay' when the wife is going berzerk then he is going to end up in jail at some point.
Refusing to call the police at the time doesn't mean it won't get reported later.
Writing stuff down isn't going to help much. Unless there were witnesses to her drunken tirade (or a video) a post incident story isn't worth much.
How he protects himself is to leave.
Are you positive you are getting the true story from him? Is it possible he tried to restrain her from throwing things & then she attacked him? Saying I don't want to call the cops because she will tell a story on me doesn't sound right.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Aug 20, 2013 6:42:07 GMT -5
That grievously sucks. Sorry for your brother - my oldest brother experienced something similar with his x. She wasn't a drinker, but did use unprescribed drugs. And she did in the end attack my much bigger brother, called the cops and had him removed from their home, hid his tools and other things so he could not find them when he was allowed back in, and other spiteful hate acts. He lived with our mother for a time. There was an order of protection, so he could not leave his car when he went to pick up their kids for visitation (every Sunday). It took over two years to get the divorce finalized. During the process she accused him of hiding a pension he had earned so that it couldn't be split. He had no idea he was to get a pension! It came to light that she had opened mail addressed to him during the two years prior, and showed the attorneys the statement. His attorney noted the date on the letter, took it to the magistrate, and all of that pension ended up with my brother. One small victory for him in a long tortuous ordeal. His kids were badly damaged by the whole thing, including losing trust in their dad and experiencing the spew of hate from their mother.
Your brother needs to: contact the county or town domestic violence center. They can advise him. Also, if he has EAP through work, call. They can help.
My drunken hostile XH was verbally and psychologically abusive to me and our kids. He left no overt physical signs - he wasn't physical (if he had been, I'd be dead and DD crippled). He finally left only after I got an order of protection. He fought everything for years, including trying to have me jailed for contempt of court for not showing up with DS for visitation. At that time, DD was hospitalized; DS at 5 was terrified of going. Lots of ugly.
EAP helped me. So did the DV center, although we had no physical injuries. They had excellent advice. Your brother should go.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 20, 2013 8:30:50 GMT -5
::He should have left the house, not tried to restrain her.::
I'll clarify "restrain her". She swung on him for the 3rd (i think) time, he grabbed her wrist as she was swinging, then grabbed her other wrist, turned her out of his way so he could get past her. Then he walked to the door, called the dog to him, and left. They weren't just standing there while he held her and she was going crazy.
::Saying I don't want to call the cops because she will tell a story on me doesn't sound right. ::
He didn't want to call the cops because he knew his marriage would be over, and he wasn't sure he wanted that. MY concern was that he's going to call them, she's going to make something up, and they're both going to end up hauled off to jail (I think it was his concern as well, which is why I was asking him how much he was going to pursue charges. And finally decided that with him unwilling to pursue charges, it might be best not to get the cops involved in the first place). His concern about her making up a story on his part was primarily worry about the next morning, when she wakes up from her blackout, and potentially has half a memory about what happened and fills in the blanks with something untrue.
::Is it possible he tried to restrain her from throwing things & then she attacked him?::
It's not what he said, but I wasn't there, so it's always possible. I don't necessarily see how that changes anything though.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 20, 2013 9:33:51 GMT -5
I think the best thing would be if he could wrap his head around the fact it is unlikely to get better and he runs the risk of being jailed and his kids and dog harmed. IMO people who are mean drunks are mean sober, they just hide it better.
If he's unwilling to leave her yet(not good) he might want to think of putting up hidden cameras running on a loop in places this is likely to happen. Bedrooms and bathrooms would be a bad idea but kitchen and living room video might be helpful. At best this would only be a slight hedge against when things go further south. Please point out to him that as much as he'd like to stay in her boy's life, its probably not worth having all three kids damaged and potential jail time. He's in serious sideways territory. If you want to save three kids but really only have the ability to save two its best to acknowledge that up front before you damage all three for life. Even if the kids weren't there they will notices the bruises, etc. and probably sense the explanations are lies. Do you think you can convince your brother he doesn't want to train his children that this is acceptable in a marriage?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Aug 20, 2013 9:54:26 GMT -5
I like the suggestion to call the non-emergency police line and ask them for guidelines on how to handle this, should it happen again.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 20, 2013 10:28:44 GMT -5
::I think the best thing would be if he could wrap his head around the fact it is unlikely to get better and he runs the risk of being jailed and his kids and dog harmed. IMO people who are mean drunks are mean sober, they just hide it better.::
She's definitely mean sober, she's just not violent sober. She definitely hides it better, it's more of a sarcastic mean than horrible venomous mean.
::I like the suggestion to call the non-emergency police line and ask them for guidelines on how to handle this, should it happen again.::
I agree with this. I'll look into it. Although if it happens again I'm going to be a lot more vocal about calling the police. I think if I'd told him to do it, he would have. I just didn't want to be the one to decide that for him given that we all know I dislike her in the first place. I didn't want him to later see it as "I came to you to talk and you convinced me to do something I didn't want to when you saw your chance to take a shot at her". That's the downside of me already not liking her. I want to be careful it doesn't appear I'm pushing an agenda because of how I already feel about her.
::Do you think you can convince your brother he doesn't want to train his children that this is acceptable in a marriage?::
Honestly? No. Because it doesn't happen around the kids, I don't think that's going to work. (I realize people are making arguements they will know it's happening, etc. And I agree, I'm just saying I don't think he will be convinced on that front). He's still in denial that "she would never do anything to the kids". I could "make" him get a divorce if I really wanted to. I'm just not sure that's the approach I really want to take. I don't want to feel like I pushed him into something. I'm still at the stage of prodding him along and pointing out how unhealthy it is. If I said "you need to leave her, you're staying here, go get your stuff", he would I think. I don't want their relationship on my shoulders though.
I'm actually tempted to tell him what I've already told my wife. When we have kids, they aren't allowed to be under her supervision for any reason for any length of time. I'm not taking that chance with my kids. One the one hand this might open his eyes to how serious I think her problem really is. On the other side, it's going to make an already hostile relationship between me and her even worse. It also probably cuts back on my opportunity to spend time with their kids and creates another fight between the 2 of them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 10:37:21 GMT -5
"Then he walked to the door, called the dog to him, and left." for not leaving the dog behind!
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 20, 2013 10:55:37 GMT -5
Are there other family members who don't feel that way about her, but who would be equally as appalled as you are by this behavior and would encourage him to call the police and/or leave? It may be worth bringing them into the situation next time. I can understand the predicament of not wanting to be blamed for any actions he takes, but if he has people who DO like her (or at least tolerate her) telling him the same thing you are, it may carry more weight... or at least make it harder for him to back down. It's definitely an unenviable position.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 12:21:46 GMT -5
With that height difference, how did she reach his face? Did she get on a step ladder?
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 20, 2013 12:26:57 GMT -5
With that height difference, how did she reach his face? Did she get on a step ladder? And this is one of the questions the police are going to ask. And they might conclude that she was able to reach his face because she hit him as he was bent over her, right after he released her wrists (the bruises on her wrists).
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 20, 2013 12:38:33 GMT -5
LOL, there's a 14" difference in their heights, and from the top of her head to his mouth, there's probably an 8" difference. How many of you can't reach 8" above the top of your head? She's not a T-rex.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 20, 2013 12:41:36 GMT -5
LOL, there's a 14" difference in their heights, and from the top of her head to his mouth, there's probably an 8" difference. How many of you can't reach 8" above the top of your head? She's not a T-rex. OK, that made me laugh.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 20, 2013 12:56:22 GMT -5
I'm constantly amazed at how little self respect people have. It shows in who you have relationships with. There are many reasons why I'm single, but one of them is because I believe my companionship is valuable, and therefore I either spend my time with quality people, or alone. If you stay in an abusive relationship, even if it's just verbal abuse, you're acknowledging to yourself that your companionship has no value. Men and women who stay in abusive relationships reek of low self esteem.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 20, 2013 12:59:05 GMT -5
I'm very sorry your brother is going through this hoops902, and it sucks even more that societal prejudice, and their respective builds stack the deck even further against him. The only time I've dealt with DV, it was with similar builds, but the big strong husband was already drunk, and yelling at the police when they came.
If it were me, my instinct would be to start getting anything and everything that I cared about OUT of the house and secured. SS#s and accounts/records need to be secured. Any precious keepsakes, tools, pictures... get it out of there. If the wife is as spiteful/mean as you've said, then she'll be looking for ways to hurt him.
I totally understand how difficult it would be not to defend himself -- where defend just may mean "block her strikes" as opposed to actually neutralizing her. If you are trying to move around, and someone (even a smaller weaker person) is following you around yelling at you and hitting you, your movement is going to be impeded. Not to mention that she was probably trying to prompt a reaction (maybe even hoping to bait him into really opening up), so likely her attacks would have gotten more and more motivated.
I also totally understand that we aren't just talking about "a big man" and "a random smaller woman" getting into a fight. We are talking about a guy who doesn't want to hurt his wife/mother of children, and/or end his marriage in that way, at that time, as well as play in to stereotypes. Not to mention that war with someone you share a home with is one of the most draining exercises imaginable. Unless he can be there 24/7, who knows what she'll do while he is away; which emphasizes the importance of my first point to get his stuff secured.
I think hoops also said that this was the first time it actually got physical (that he knows of). Yelling is yelling. Shoot, thats how my family communicated for years! And I wager this didn't happen overnight either.
I hope he is able to protect himself and get justice hoops. There's a small part of me that wonders if the wife isn't taking a huge gamble here too. I'm pretty sure that encounters like this with similar players don't always end with the man trying to get out and not hurt anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 13:14:17 GMT -5
LOL, there's a 14" difference in their heights, and from the top of her head to his mouth, there's probably an 8" difference. How many of you can't reach 8" above the top of your head? She's not a T-rex. I pictured her with midget arms.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Aug 20, 2013 13:17:29 GMT -5
I'm constantly amazed at how little self respect people have. It shows in who you have relationships with. There are many reasons why I'm single, but one of them is because I believe my companionship is valuable, and therefore I either spend my time with quality people, or alone. If you stay in an abusive relationship, even if it's just verbal abuse, you're acknowledging to yourself that your companionship has no value. Men and women who stay in abusive relationships reek of low self esteem. Good for you! I'm glad you can see that you ARE so much better off solely in control of your own life than settling for someone who makes you miserable. As far as the OP, I have a friend (male) who was abused physcially by his wife for years. It was a combination of the reality of what swamp said: males are almost always accused of being violent and the female is believed, and here, if you call the police to report domestic violence both parties are arrested automatically. The intent of that was to ward off petty, unnecessary calls to the cops and to make the victim press charges, niether of which has happened, unfortunately. Finally, my friend's wife was arrested and he divorced her but not until years of misery passed. I feel for your bother, hoops. He is certainly in a bad spot. Yes, he could have avoided it if he chose to see reality instead of be in denial, but he's only human. Hope he can see the light and get far, far away from her! He needs to see that she IS unhappy, not just when she is drinking, but all the time. She needs to fix herself and leave him alone.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 20, 2013 13:18:41 GMT -5
LOL, there's a 14" difference in their heights, and from the top of her head to his mouth, there's probably an 8" difference. How many of you can't reach 8" above the top of your head? She's not a T-rex. Yes, but I'm guessing that at least a few of the police are going to have a passing understanding of the mechanics of fighting and know that trying to land a decent blow on the face of someone who is even a few inches taller is tough and blows much above shoulder level are much weaker as it's tougher to hit upward. I'm 5'3" and the boxing instructor (several time Golden Glove winner, old school street fighter) always told me not to bother going for the face of anyone 5'6" or more. His advice was go for the throat or get in close (neutralizes the range until they get you in a bear hug) and get some good uppercuts to the solar plexus area. Cops are going to know this stuff and assume he was bending over her to get close enough for her to land a decent blow on the face. Bending over her implies he wasn't just avoiding, which will draw his story into question. I'm not saying he's lying, just that these are things that it might be reasonable to assume the police are going to look at in situations like this.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 20, 2013 13:41:25 GMT -5
LOL, there's a 14" difference in their heights, and from the top of her head to his mouth, there's probably an 8" difference. How many of you can't reach 8" above the top of your head? She's not a T-rex. LMAO! Yeah. My sweetie is 6'3", and I am 5'5". If I wanted to punch him in the piehole, I know I could physically make it happen. Now, would that be smart and would I win a fight? Hell no! If he chose to hit back, I'd end up with my ass on the ground. But like most men he knows better than to hit back, because he would be the one that wound up in jail. The double-standard in how domestic violence is treated is appalling. I wish your brother well, Hoops.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 20, 2013 14:16:01 GMT -5
I don't know what the police would have done if called. I do know in many (most?) states the decision to file charges in DV cases is up to the state, not the victim. So it is likely he would have had no say in whether or not charges were filed.
I do find it interesting that he considers calling the police the end of their marriage. IMO, it is the only possible way to save their marriage. It still probably wouldn't work, but I would think it is pretty clear she isn't going to change on her own. Maybe some time in jail and mandatory counseling would be a wake up call she needs to get her behavior under control.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 20, 2013 14:50:54 GMT -5
::I don't know what the police would have done if called. I do know in many (most?) states the decision to file charges in DV cases is up to the state, not the victim. So it is likely he would have had no say in whether or not charges were filed.::
This is hte part we weren't sure of. I know in the police blotter it seems there are plenty of cops showing up to a domestic "disturbance" and having the parties separate for the night and no one wanting to press charges. He didn't say it, but i'm pretty sure the idea of his address showing up in the blotter, and the overwhelming societal assumption that it's hte guy smacking his wife around, played into hte decision. We also considered calling them to just come over to my house to talk to him and wondered whether when they went to talk to her if they'd list their address or just mine. Cuz I'm ok with my neighbors thinking we're volatile.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 15:14:59 GMT -5
"Nothing but a nightmare for the past 2 months."
WHat's going on with you? Are you ok?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 15:16:34 GMT -5
I think if there is "physical" violence, they have to take one or both in (depends on the state i guess) but if it "verbal" violence then I think they can just ask them to separate for the night.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 20, 2013 15:17:53 GMT -5
WHat's going on with you? Are you ok?
We worry about you.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 21, 2013 13:14:05 GMT -5
"Nothing but a nightmare for the past 2 months." WHat's going on with you? Are you ok? Who said this? I can't find the quote on the thread. Or has it since been deleted?
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