Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 9, 2013 14:03:51 GMT -5
Yes....but people are not wanting to adopt. There is emphasis on the needs and wants of the child and the birth parents. ...and the adoptive parents, who are expected to do all the work, are overlooked. So they aren't adopting....What a surprise! Whoever has made all these rules up... has got the balance wrong. I disagree. I think there needs to be some emphasis on the birth parents and the children - especially when adopting babies. I have not heard of a problem with getting babies born in this country adopted, sure some parents might choose to go overseas, but there are enough wanting the kids that they are all placed well before birth. It actually seems like there aren't enough babies for all the parents that want them, so if you focus more on the wants of the adoptive parents, then less babies will be available. It is probably totally not PC to say, but if I were in a situation where it would be best to place my baby up for adoption, then I would only do so under an open adoption. If that wasn't an option then I would have an abortion or keep the baby. I could not live the rest of my life wondering if each kid I see around the right age might be mine and always wondering if I made the right decision and what happened to the child. I can't be the only woman who feels this way.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 10, 2013 10:38:28 GMT -5
Thank you Shanenedoah for your informed and excellent post Best wishes to you. I'm simply trying to understand adoption from the would-be adopters point of view........ the reason they find it unacceptable, and aren't coming forward in the numbers required. Adoption imo is the termination of parental rights....and passing that child to someone else to bring up, with their own full legal responsibility. Its not a shared exercise.....The child does not have two sets of parents. Its a huge job to raise a child.....Put all the time, money and effort into him/her 24/7 for years and years. It has to be the child of the adopters or else why would they bother with all the effort? They aren't baby sitters for someone else to swan in with gifts, like Father Christmas.... and paint themselves as victims of the system. Its not going to work if the parents are undermined by the birth parents or other relatives. ie..There are stories of birth parents calling the child by the name they have given them, bad-mouthing to undermine the adoption... and interfering with decisions. They have even encouraged the child to think they would be better off living with them. I know it must be extremely painful but.... Why put the child up for adoption in the first place?......If birth parents, can parent, then go ahead and do it. Seems to me...if you pass the mantle to someone else...you are expecting them to raise that child. You haven't gifted them...You have ended your responsibility. We hear lots from adoptees and from birth parents.....but not too much from adoptive parents so I'm trying to put the other side.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Aug 11, 2013 9:24:39 GMT -5
I have thought that I still have the energy and drive to foster a kid or two, but DH never wanted kids in the first place. He's done a wonderful of being a great stepfather to my daughter, and indeed, loves her more than her bio father at this point. She is far closer to him than she is with her father, my first husband. In her twenties, she broke off contact with her birth father for what turned into a five-year period due to his continuous verbal abuse, in which his second wife sometimes joined. ( I heard the beginnings of a telephone call when DD & I were in line at a movie theater, and I couldn't believe it. They were screaming so loudly at her that people in line were turning around, and she didn't have the phone on speaker.
Excepting DD, my 2nd husband doesn't want children. I think it's unfortunate, but I have to respect his wishes. I will eventually be too old to foster any kids. I'll be 61 in October.
I think that there are older kids that just want a place " to be", as I read in an article about a boy who was adopted in Florida. I was a somewhat quiet and even solitary kid, even within a good family, and there are kids that just want a steady state place to live, without being messed with or all of the family drama. We could provide that, plus a good school system, love, guidance, etc. DH is such a good, wise person, and such a fantastic resource to our DD. But, it's not to be.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Aug 11, 2013 9:47:04 GMT -5
Best wishes, Mr & Mrs. Shanendoah and Kid Shanendoah.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 11, 2013 9:49:55 GMT -5
Thank you Shanenedoah for your informed and excellent post Best wishes to you. I'm simply trying to understand adoption from the would-be adopters point of view........ the reason they find it unacceptable, and aren't coming forward in the numbers required. Adoption imo is the termination of parental rights....and passing that child to someone else to bring up, with their own full legal responsibility. Its not a shared exercise.....The child does not have two sets of parents. Its a huge job to raise a child.....Put all the time, money and effort into him/her 24/7 for years and years. It has to be the child of the adopters or else why would they bother with all the effort? They aren't baby sitters for someone else to swan in with gifts, like Father Christmas.... and paint themselves as victims of the system. Its not going to work if the parents are undermined by the birth parents or other relatives. ie..There are stories of birth parents calling the child by the name they have given them, bad-mouthing to undermine the adoption... and interfering with decisions. They have even encouraged the child to think they would be better off living with them. I know it must be extremely painful but.... Why put the child up for adoption in the first place?......If birth parents, can parent, then go ahead and do it. Seems to me...if you pass the mantle to someone else...you are expecting them to raise that child. You haven't gifted them...You have ended your responsibility. We hear lots from adoptees and from birth parents.....but not too much from adoptive parents so I'm trying to put the other side. I guess I don't understand how the system is set up to allow birth parents who are relinquishing rights that much control after the adoption. If you're talking foster kids whose parents rights were taken away, that is a completely different issue, and craziness on the side of birth parents is to be expected. But I would feel the same as Angel, and as a birth mom my only time to negotiate is now, so while I don't hate Christians, I'd prefer an agnostic family and would try to place them with one. The idea that extended family gets to meet the baby might be reasonable. I like to think if I adopted through infant relinquishment I would be willing to let the birth family come to a birthday party. It would depend on the kid, family, and circumstance, but seeing people who look like you can be very important. And full disclosure, I made different choices and my kids will not ever know who their sperm donor was. We have a 20 page packet about him, but anything that could be used to locate the donor was removed. At most we could help them connect with half siblings. Sometimes I think it was a selfish decision that I feel bad about. So I'm hoping my kids don't care too much about that when they're older, but you never know.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 11, 2013 16:55:28 GMT -5
My short answer on the adoption thing was no, but my slightly longer answer on open adoption is oh hell to the no!
If the birth parents and their extended family want a baby they can raise it. If you're giving it up for adoption, it's now a member of a completely different family and no longer part of yours. We've talked about potentially doing foster care for older kids after ours are out of the house, but if we were going to adopt we'd only want an infant, and we'd want no interference from the birth family at all. Any child we'd adopt would already have a very large and loving extended family that they'd be a part of from day one. They don't need Disney parents that only show up for a week here or there to do fun stuff and potentially undermine us about the importance of schoolwork, attitude, and rules. It would make it like adopting a stepchild instead of your own child.
I could see keeping in touch with the birth parents anonymously through the adoption agency. So they get pictures and updates once in a while, but I wouldn't even do that if it wasn't anonymous. If we adopted a child that's our baby. It would be my son or daughter just like our natural born kids, regardless of the womb it came from. It's no longer the birth parents kid, it's just a kid that shares some of their DNA.
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kilroy
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Post by kilroy on Aug 11, 2013 17:11:58 GMT -5
My parents adopted my sister 46 years ago when she was just a few days old. She was always treated 100% like a member of our family, and she even looked like she could be related by blood. 20-odd years ago she decided she wanted nothing more to do with us and moved hundreds of miles away to "make a real family" with her new husband. They have 3 children my parents never saw before they died. So even if I had any desire for kids I would never consider adoption. No way, no how.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 19:54:55 GMT -5
There are a lot of adoptions in our family. Some open some not. They all feel like blood to me and sometimes I really do forget. It's funny because a few of them are different races. Also, my Mom put my older brother up for adoption when she was 19. I didn't meet him (or even know he existed) until I was in my 30's.
I'm getting too old for more kids and have my hands full with the three I have, but I have no doubt I would bond to an adoptive child just as I would my own (assuming I got them at a reasonably young age). I often wished I could take in one or two, but the system the way it is, it's difficult.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 12, 2013 3:08:49 GMT -5
I'm not really qualified to talk about this... but it seems to me there wouldn't be sperm donors if the guys thought that offspring were going to turn up at the door in 20 years time. They didn't sign up to fatherhood and that is the reality of the situation.
I feel much the same....and where the child is curious about the birth family they could seek them out when they get older.. if that's what they need to do. The adoptive parents are the ones who have to put all the work in......and that relationship needs nurturing and should not be put at risk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 6:53:08 GMT -5
This came up when DH and I were talking about getting married. I stated that if we couldn't have biological children, I did not want to adopt. DH informed me that was a deal breaker. He wanted kids and if we had to go down the adoption route then so be it, that's what we would do. I accepted this as, basically, a condition of our marriage. It wasn't something I felt so strongly about that I thought it was worth giving up our relationship for. We were fortunate that it was fairly easy for us to conceive and we have a beautiful 3 1/2 mo old daughter now.
I think adoption is really tough. Before having DD, I would have said that I would not give up a child for the fear of them showing up on my doorstep 20 years later. Now that I have a child, though, I can see the perspective of the birth parents more. But I still don't know if I agree with open adoption. To the same point that other posters have made, it almost feels like it is undermining the adoptive parents. And I don't know how well I would bond with that child. It took me a few weeks to bond with my biological child. Would that be any different with a child that I didn't carry myself? I don't know. I just don't.
I'm honestly very relieved that I don't have to have this discussion and make these choices. I think it's difficult for everyone involved.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 12, 2013 7:32:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure Spell has this characterized correctly. The legal parents have all the power - except emotional. If the parent who adopted are being jacked around by the birth parents, it is because they are letting themselves be. Open adoption or not, nobody has that much right to dictate your child's schedule but you. If the birth parents are getting too clingy and too much, you can absolutely pull back. You are the parent - period. There is nothing about the "open adoption" process that gives a birth parent unfettered access to the child, whenever they want, and visitation, etc. Technically "open adoption" means that the records are open to knowing the identity of all the people involved - not that it is a shared custody agreement.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 12, 2013 7:46:32 GMT -5
I am hoping to do exactly what Laterbloomer is doing. Older kids with no issues other than needing some attention and stability in their lives.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Aug 12, 2013 11:02:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure Spell has this characterized correctly. The legal parents have all the power - except emotional. If the parent who adopted are being jacked around by the birth parents, it is because they are letting themselves be. Open adoption or not, nobody has that much right to dictate your child's schedule but you. If the birth parents are getting too clingy and too much, you can absolutely pull back. You are the parent - period. There is nothing about the "open adoption" process that gives a birth parent unfettered access to the child, whenever they want, and visitation, etc. Technically "open adoption" means that the records are open to knowing the identity of all the people involved - not that it is a shared custody agreement. Absolutely.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 12, 2013 11:43:59 GMT -5
thyme4change has it correct. The adoptive parents are the parents via the law. Regardless of what the open adoption agreement states, if the parents feel that the relationship is no longer in the best interest of their child and their family, they can stop the visits, stop the contact, etc. These are NOT custody agreements. The biological parents no longer have any rights to the child. At least in the US (I can't speak for the UK), if the bio-family is running roughshod over the adoptive parents, it is because the adoptive parents are letting them. There is NOTHING in open adoption agreements that requires adoptive parents to give up any of their rights to the bio-family. Now again, I am adopting an older child who knows her family, so maybe I would feel differently if I were adopting an infant, but my honest opinion is, the more people who love a child and want what is best for that child in a child's life, the better. What is wrong with having an extra set of grandparents (who may love the child very much but don't have the ability to raise the child) or aunts or uncles, etc? Yes, there is a trick to figuring out the right balance, but as far as I can tell, we have that with our own families. How many people on here have complained about their own mother or their mother-in-law undermining their parenting, or telling them they are doing it wrong, etc? This is a problem with all families, not just ones with adopted kids. The difficult part is figuring out if everyone is acting in the best interest of the child (or has the same idea of what that best interest is). Guess what? As the parents, you are the one who gets to decide- not the bio family. You. We actually had an issue with one of DD's former foster families- one who thought they were going to adopt her and then changed their minds. They love her, but it was decided quite firmly by the social workers and C and myself (since DD is still in foster care, social workers are actually the final decision makers right now) that it was not in DD's best interest for them to still have contact with her. (It really isn't in their best interest, either.) DD was with them for 9 months, knew they were supposed to adopt her, and called them mom and dad. Continuing contact with them (especially since they felt conflicted about their decision) was obviously not going to be a good plan. We had some contact with them while she was still in school (same school and grade as their bio-son) and could not do anything about that. But there was contact with them once this summer, and C cursed the mom out. She then complained to the social workers at the agency. C's response- she's an adult who can hear adult language, and they were told they weren't supposed to have contact. They are the adults; she is the child, so it is their responsibility to enforce that, not to come up with creative reasons why that rule doesn't come to play in this situation. Another view- we have friends who adopted an infant. Birth mother is his half-sister. There is an open adoption agreement. That agreement states that birth mom gets to visit child one week a year. It does NOT say that she gets to dictate that week, nor does she have physical custody of the child for that week. She has to call and schedule something that works with the birth family. She gets to visit with the child during that week, but parents get to choose how long each visit is, and also get to be present for the entire visit if they choose. In addition, birth mom lives in the South, parents live in the PNW. If birth mom wants to visit, she has to come to the PNW on her own dime. Parents do not have to take the child to her nor do they have to pay for her to come to them. All they have to do is allow a visit to happen when it is convenient for them do so. Please don't think I am saying adoption is easy. It's not, and I've even had threads here complaining about how long some of this has taken and the hoops adoptive parents have to jump through. And I think it is great that people are able to talk about their fears and concerns about the process. What I am saying is that it is not all the horror stories, and that as the adoptive parents, you really do have the power to raise your child. An open adoption is NOT babysitting someone else's kid. It's simply helping YOUR child understand where they came from. And the truth is, you really do have all the power and the child. Birth mothers are not looking for someone else to pay to raise their child. Giving a child up for adoption is not an easy choice, and one they have probably struggled with and are continuing to struggle with. An open adoption gives them some peace of mind. It helps them know as the years pass that they really did make the best choice for their child. And truthfully, in all of the open adoptions I am aware of, the presence of the bio-parents becomes less and less as the years go on and they continue to live their own lives. Plus, there's the added bonus that your child then never feels the need to go searching for their "real" family, because they've met them. They aren't, in fact, the fairy tale family that will make everything better because they are known, not imagined. Again, adoption is not easy, but it's not a horror movie either. I will say again, if it's something you are really interested in doing, do the research, attend a free training or two. Make up your own mind if the rewards are worth the risks.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 12, 2013 12:49:34 GMT -5
So, theoretically, in the US parents could agree to an open adoption and then turn around once they're out of the "redemption period" (don't know the actual term) of when the bio-parents could take the kid say forget you we're not letting you have contact and go on their merry way with nothing to be done?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 12, 2013 13:39:59 GMT -5
justme - unless the birth parents still have access to lawyers, yes. An open adoption agreement is a contract and is subject to contract law. However, there are all sorts of escape clauses for birth parents, including "best interest of the child", and unless you are still under observation from the agency or state (we will continue to have "agency support", including social worker visits, for 6-9 months after the adoption), as the adoptive parent, you are considered the final arbiter of what is in your child's best interest. If the birth parents have the resources to take you to court for violation of contract, you might have to prove that somehow, but honestly, how many birth parents have that ability. Open adoption agreements, like many agreements we make in life, depend mostly on the good will of the people making them. And, despite horror stories you hear (though most of those appear to be about birth parents and not adoptive parents), people actually do make a good faith effort to uphold their end of the bargain. But since open adoption agreements are NOT custody agreements, they can never stop the adoptive parents from living their life, including moving the entire family overseas if they want to, or deciding the visits with birth families are too disruptive to the family as a whole (perhaps other children in the family, or to the adoptive parents' schedules) and there is not really anything the birth parents can do about it. When you relinquish rights to your child, you relinquish your rights, and an open adoption contract can only go so far, for the exact reasons that this thread was complaining about- the adoptive parents are THE parents, and their rights to raise their child(ren) as they see fit need to have legal priority.
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olderburgher
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Post by olderburgher on Aug 13, 2013 8:12:12 GMT -5
We adopted twice. Both great kids. One never wanted to know about birth parents because we are his parents. One had to know and does but we are still Mommy and Daddy.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 13, 2013 8:16:02 GMT -5
So, theoretically, in the US parents could agree to an open adoption and then turn around once they're out of the "redemption period" (don't know the actual term) of when the bio-parents could take the kid say forget you we're not letting you have contact and go on their merry way with nothing to be done? Open adoption does not guarantee any contact whatsoever. It just makes the records open, so all the parties know the identity of the others.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 8:32:43 GMT -5
I am not 100% sure if I would adopt or not. But if I did, I would want to adopt a younger child, probably 3 years old or younger. I would prefer the closed adoption route so I wouldn't have to deal with potential drama. I am thinking if I were to find out I was adopted and my parents weren't my birth parents, I would have zero desire to find out who my birth parents were.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 13, 2013 9:35:55 GMT -5
So, theoretically, in the US parents could agree to an open adoption and then turn around once they're out of the "redemption period" (don't know the actual term) of when the bio-parents could take the kid say forget you we're not letting you have contact and go on their merry way with nothing to be done? Open adoption does not guarantee any contact whatsoever. It just makes the records open, so all the parties know the identity of the others. So then those that want contact (which is pretty much almost synonymous with open adoption, at least when I hear about it) and say agree with the adoptive parents on a letter and photos twice a year - is that in the adoption papers/contract or is it good faith hand shake? From Shanendoah's post it sounds like it's written into the contract, but there's escape clauses to allow the adoptive parents to cease agreed to contact whenever they want basically.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 13, 2013 9:41:32 GMT -5
That is untrue. I think 70% of adoptions are open, but I don't know any that have more than occasional contact - Christmas cards, and maybe a meeting when the child is coming of age, if the kid wants.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 13, 2013 10:29:23 GMT -5
Occasional contact is still contact. How many do you know that are open but only in the basic sense that the kid can look up the records and see who his/her parents are but there's no contact even in the form of one-way letters/pictures?
Truly asking. Still young enough that the only adoptions I know of happened with girls when I was in high school, but I'm not in contact with them anymore. I know one in the first year said she had visited her daughter a few times.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2013 10:33:52 GMT -5
I have several adopted cousins. Sme are curious, some are not. I think it depends on the kid. In our family, the kids who seemed less secure needed to know, those that felt okay, could have cared less. But that's just our family and has no reflection on parenting adopted kids.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2013 10:35:47 GMT -5
Btw, it want easy for the adopted cousins to get info. My one aunt flat out lied about my one cousins real name in order to sabotage her search. She didn't realize I was ten at the time and knew the kids real name and since I didn't know it was some deep dark secret, I told her. My aunt was furious but my mom, amazingly, defended me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2013 10:36:06 GMT -5
Wasn't easy, sorry.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 13, 2013 11:37:04 GMT -5
Yes, the contact is written into a contract. The agency generally supplies the lawyer for the birth parents and adoptive parents are told they need to provide their own lawyer for expressly this purpose (when it comes to infant relinquishment.) In cases like ours, where our daughter has been in state care and the birth father is willing to give up his rights, but is asking for an open adoption, the contact will be court ordered. But again, in our case, it should be nothing more than a letter and a picture once or twice a year, which we will not send directly to bio-dad but will go through the agency or the state. And honestly, after a year or two, we could probably get away with stopping sending those, given that there's little likelihood bio-dad would take us back to court. (I don't intend to stop after a year or two, but it's doubtful there would be any negative consequences if we did.) Open adoption means the records are not sealed FOR THE CHILD. In some cases, bio and adoptive parents meet and make arrangements for contact beyond letters and pictures. In our case, I don't think we will ever meet bio-dad. We don't know his name and honestly haven't cared enough to ask. I don't know that he will ever know anything more than our first names, if even that. He will not have any access to information about us or DD beyond that which we send in the letters. And one of the reasons they go through the state/agency is to make sure that any identifying information is removed, so that he can never track us down. Obviously, our DD is old enough that "open" adoption or not, she knows who her birth parents are. In this case, asking for open means asking for the letters. Her birth mom relinquished all rights and did not ask for an open adoption (DD does NOT know this). DD writes to her and sends those via her social worker. We do not intend to stop her from doing that and we don't monitor their content. If you are looking to adopt an infant (at least on the west coast of the US) and you want to use an agency, you will almost certainly be told that you have to agree in advance to an open adoption, but the terms of that adoption will be up to you and the birth parents to figure out. As thyme4change has said, all the term "open adoption" really means is that the records are not sealed FROM THE CHILD, so that the child has the ability to learn about their origins. You may be able to get around open adoptions by seeking out attorneys who specialize in adoption and work with birth mothers. No matter which way you go, there is always the possibility of a birth mother who does not want any contact what so ever.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Aug 13, 2013 19:26:34 GMT -5
So, theoretically, in the US parents could agree to an open adoption and then turn around once they're out of the "redemption period" (don't know the actual term) of when the bio-parents could take the kid say forget you we're not letting you have contact and go on their merry way with nothing to be done? like any legal contract it depends on the state/area you are in but the definition of "open" adoption in the US is like Shanandoah said. You know all parties involved. So the birth mother knows all the info about the adoptees and they about her. It doesn't mean they get free contact. For a lot of "open" adoptions the open part is filtered through an attorney and is more an exchange of information not actual contact--I think that is good for most kids. All the adopted kids I know just want to know why, where they came from, who they look like etc. not necessarily have two families.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 3:31:27 GMT -5
The main reasons we chose international adoption was because we didn't want to have an open adoption here and deal with birth families, we didn't want to do a private adoption where you basically market yourselve to prspective birthmothers and we didn't want to navigate the foster care system. The international process was for the most part a very predictable process and timeline and you finalize the adoption overseas before bringing the child home. Same for us.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 14, 2013 6:01:45 GMT -5
And she is precious, btw!
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