NC Teachers Have To Do A Good Job

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

North Carolina has effectively ended teacher tenure...

reason.com/blog/2013/07/30/tenure-revoked-to-keep-their-jobs-north

[billisonboard]

Great that teachers have to do a "good job".  However the Devil is always in the details of these situations.  For example, how will "top performers" be identified?  What safeguards are in place to prevent the finding that a high percentage of teachers who are approaching being vested in a retirement program of being found to be "unfit"? 

[Deleted]

I am actually ok with them ending tenure.   Now I have to go take a shower and get ready for the world to come to an end since I actually agree with Paul on something. 

[Shooby]

   I am all for high standards for teachers.  However, the notion that students are simply PASSIVE sponges that sit and absorb learning is moronic.    Standing and blathering off facts is one thing.  But, teachers today have a host of social issues to deal with in the classroom.  There are a lot of kids who come from terrible homes.  Homes of abuse, poor nutrition, staying up all night and playing video games and on and on.  Is it a physician's FAULT if a patient is morbidly obese, smokes, drinks and has poor health habits and subsequent poor health.  What is it YOU expect teachers to be capable of doing?  Leaning is ACTIVE.  It is in NO WAY a passive event.  It in the interplay of a willing learner and an educator.  And, with the severe lack of discpline, kids knowing "their rights', parents unwilling to discipline Johnny, there are many kids who don't WANT to learn and don't want to do anything but take up space.
  We want high academic standards on one hand.  But, on the other we are willing to expel, discipline or hold anyone accountable except for teachers.  Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  You either have high standards for teachers AND students or not.  If not, all the teacher standards in the world will not amount to a hill of beans.

[Deleted]

I do not believe that teachers should be held completely responsible, but I DO think that tenure should be gone.  I have seen way too many teachers just stop doing their jobs.  I have seen teachers texting in class, playing on FB, talking about drinking and partying, and one teacher spent most of her day planning her house remodel.  These above examples taught by handing the students a stack of worksheets with just a brief reading of the directions.  THAT is not teaching.  I am not saying that all teachers are like this.  I am saying I have seen too many to be able to say I agree with tenure.  I have heard teachers say "I do not care if you pass or fail, I get a paycheck either way."  THAT is a really bad attitude and teachers like that just need to get out of the profession.  Tenure makes it very difficult to get rid of teachers like my examples.  Firing a tenured teacher can nearly bankrupt a school district if the teacher decides to fight it.

[billisonboard]

Jul 31, 2013 10:00:49 GMT -5 imanangel said:

... I have heard teachers say "I do not care if you pass or fail, I get a paycheck either way."  THAT is a really bad attitude and teachers like that just need to get out of the profession. ...

To say this to a student who refuses to accept responsibility for their own learning, who has the expectation that adults do all for them, is an example of a "top performer" who should get that four year contract.  Not for every student and certainly not in isolation without other comments but for the right student at the right time, excellent.

[Shooby]

We give a lot of lip service.  Then people constantly bellyache and whine over teacher salaries.  Our teachers start at about $30k.  If we think they are paid too much and teaching is such an easy do nothing job, then let's just fire all the teachers, hire a bunch of minimum wage babysitter's and then we can just warehouse everyone's kids for them all day in an auditorium. 

[jkapp]

Jul 31, 2013 9:45:54 GMT -5 Shooby said:

   I am all for high standards for teachers.  However, the notion that students are simply PASSIVE sponges that sit and absorb learning is moronic.    Standing and blathering off facts is one thing.  But, teachers today have a host of social issues to deal with in the classroom.  There are a lot of kids who come from terrible homes.  Homes of abuse, poor nutrition, staying up all night and playing video games and on and on.  Is it a physician's FAULT if a patient is morbidly obese, smokes, drinks and has poor health habits and subsequent poor health.  What is it YOU expect teachers to be capable of doing?  Leaning is ACTIVE.  It is in NO WAY a passive event.  It in the interplay of a willing learner and an educator.  And, with the severe lack of discpline, kids knowing "their rights', parents unwilling to discipline Johnny, there are many kids who don't WANT to learn and don't want to do anything but take up space.
  We want high academic standards on one hand.  But, on the other we are willing to expel, discipline or hold anyone accountable except for teachers.  Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  You either have high standards for teachers AND students or not.  If not, all the teacher standards in the world will not amount to a hill of beans.

All true....and interesting that the information above NEVER comes up when teachers are demanding more pay and benefits.  Then its all the teachers' doing that students do well in school...and if you don't pay teachers more, then the students will suffer!  Because, as well all know, teachers' pay is "for the children!"  

[Shooby]

Oh i am SICK of listening the "it's for the CHILDREN" bully stick.  They use that to continually browbeat our local teachers.  I don't see this billy club being pulled out to beat contractors or ANYONE else who works for the school from the highly paid Supers, Principals and other administrators to Athletic Directors so give me a break.  The teachers are the ONES with your children, not all these other ancillary personel.  So, if you want to browbeat everyone do it across the board.

[Shooby]

  As for "The CHILDREN" BS, i don't recall teachers taking some vow of poverty where they don't also have to families to support and bills to pay and for some reason it is wrong for them to want to be paid.   And, everyone thinks teaching is such a cake job.  Well, if it is, there are TONS of schools where you can go and become a teacher, so go back yourself and become one and avail yourself of easy street.

[jkapp]

Jul 31, 2013 10:31:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Oh i am SICK of listening the "it's for the CHILDREN" bully stick.  They use that to continually browbeat our local teachers.  I don't see this billy club being pulled out to beat contractors or ANYONE else who works for the school from the highly paid Supers, Principals and other administrators to Athletic Directors so give me a break.  The teachers are the ONES with your children, not all these other ancillary personel.  So, if you want to browbeat everyone do it across the board.

The only reason we use it is because that is the same bs the teachers use to defend every decision that will cost additional taxpayer dollars.  Every time our local school district demands more money, its always "We have to do it...its for the children, after all."

Well, guess what?  Its not going to help the struggling students' situtations when their parents have even less money to support the family! 

[Shooby]

  I didn't say teachers should get everything they want.  But, usually the Billy club to beat the teachers and not EVERYONE in the District is Bunk.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 31, 2013 10:28:54 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 31, 2013 9:45:54 GMT -5 Shooby said:

   I am all for high standards for teachers.  However, the notion that students are simply PASSIVE sponges that sit and absorb learning is moronic.    Standing and blathering off facts is one thing.  But, teachers today have a host of social issues to deal with in the classroom.  There are a lot of kids who come from terrible homes.  Homes of abuse, poor nutrition, staying up all night and playing video games and on and on.  Is it a physician's FAULT if a patient is morbidly obese, smokes, drinks and has poor health habits and subsequent poor health.  What is it YOU expect teachers to be capable of doing?  Leaning is ACTIVE.  It is in NO WAY a passive event.  It in the interplay of a willing learner and an educator.  And, with the severe lack of discpline, kids knowing "their rights', parents unwilling to discipline Johnny, there are many kids who don't WANT to learn and don't want to do anything but take up space.
  We want high academic standards on one hand.  But, on the other we are willing to expel, discipline or hold anyone accountable except for teachers.  Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  You either have high standards for teachers AND students or not.  If not, all the teacher standards in the world will not amount to a hill of beans.

All true....and interesting that the information above NEVER comes up when teachers are demanding more pay and benefits.  Then its all the teachers' doing that students do well in school...and if you don't pay teachers more, then the students will suffer!  Because, as well all know, teachers' pay is "for the children!"

It’s hard to forget former National Education Association (NEA) General Counsel Bob Chanin’s farewell address during the 2009 NEA national convention. “It is not because we care about children; and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child,” Chanin boasted. “The NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.”

blog.heritage.org/2011/07/02/nea-convention-reminds-us-it%E2%80%99s-about-union-power-not-children/

[Shooby]

  Look.  Teachers negotiate contracts.  And, they way they negotiate contract is the way we choose to set it.  The teachers did not create the way contract negotiations happen.  They have to negotiate under the prescribed rules.  So, if you don't like the way it is done, then lobby your state or govt to change this.

  As for money, for some reason, the better pay argument seems to apply to every OTHER profession except for teachers.  For some reason you have to pay well for talent but we dont' apply that to teachers.  Go figure.

  But, as i said, if you just want to warehouse your kids all day with baby sitting and low wages, then hire the cheapest people you can find to sit with your kids all day.  Gawd.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 1, 2013 8:58:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Look.  Teachers negotiate contracts.  And, they way they negotiate contract is the way we choose to set it.  The teachers did not create the way contract negotiations happen.  They have to negotiate under the prescribed rules.  So, if you don't like the way it is done, then lobby your state or govt to change this.

  As for money, for some reason, the better pay argument seems to apply to every OTHER profession except for teachers.  For some reason you have to pay well for talent but we dont' apply that to teachers.  Go figure.

  But, as i said, if you just want to warehouse your kids all day with baby sitting and low wages, then hire the cheapest people you can find to sit with your kids all day.  Gawd.

Right now, if your kids are in government run schools- you're paying top dollar for babysitters to indoctrinate your kids.

[Shooby]

Aug 1, 2013 13:06:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 1, 2013 8:58:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Look.  Teachers negotiate contracts.  And, they way they negotiate contract is the way we choose to set it.  The teachers did not create the way contract negotiations happen.  They have to negotiate under the prescribed rules.  So, if you don't like the way it is done, then lobby your state or govt to change this.

  As for money, for some reason, the better pay argument seems to apply to every OTHER profession except for teachers.  For some reason you have to pay well for talent but we dont' apply that to teachers.  Go figure.

  But, as i said, if you just want to warehouse your kids all day with baby sitting and low wages, then hire the cheapest people you can find to sit with your kids all day.  Gawd.

Right now, if your kids are in government run schools- you're paying top dollar for babysitters to indoctrinate your kids.

I am sorry you have such a low view of teachers.  My kids go to Public School and are doing fine.  The vast majority of teachers are really trying to do a great job.  Yeah a few bad apples.  But, i think they work hard and i certainly would not want to do their job.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 1, 2013 17:34:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Aug 1, 2013 13:06:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Right now, if your kids are in government run schools- you're paying top dollar for babysitters to indoctrinate your kids.

I am sorry you have such a low view of teachers.  My kids go to Public School and are doing fine.  The vast majority of teachers are really trying to do a great job.  Yeah a few bad apples.  But, i think they work hard and i certainly would not want to do their job.

The vast majority of teachers couldn't do a good job if they wanted to.  Their hands are tied- and they're about to be virtually obsolete once communist core kicks in.

There's widespread agreement on this matter, btw- it's going to be a unifying movement, and I'm going to be the tip of the spear raking in the dough:

www.alternet.org/education/educating-idiots

What Passes for Education In America Is Often Just Indoctrination

The basic model and function of education is by and large not seriously questioned at all.

At its worst, however, education is arguably not even education at all. What passes for education is, more often than not, merely indoctrination. And such is the condition of virtually all levels of education in the US today. Subjected to the demands of the market and the state, rather than facilitating a good faith examination of the world, education functions as a massive industry busy creating and recreating this society's "idiotic" projects, along with its ideologies. Rather than critical thought, it is but a tool of a type of thought so uncritical it leads one to wonder whether it even qualifies as thought at all.

[billisonboard]

Aug 1, 2013 18:44:10 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

...

www.alternet.org/education/educating-idiots

What Passes for Education In America Is Often Just Indoctrination

The basic model and function of education is by and large not seriously questioned at all.

At its worst, however, education is arguably not even education at all. What passes for education is, more often than not, merely indoctrination. And such is the condition of virtually all levels of education in the US today. Subjected to the demands of the market and the state, rather than facilitating a good faith examination of the world, education functions as a massive industry busy creating and recreating this society's "idiotic" projects, along with its ideologies. Rather than critical thought, it is but a tool of a type of thought so uncritical it leads one to wonder whether it even qualifies as thought at all.

And even more from Paul's link:

In cooperation with one another in regional, and inter-regional networks, such community colleges could not only share what they produce, and organize events such as film festivals, they could attend to the problems of their particular community entirely beyond the profit-based demands of the physically, psychologically and environmentally destructive market-economy, and beyond the State as well.

Damn Paul, you radical you. I love it.


I would also recommend:
Pedagogy of the Oppressed written by educator Paulo Freire and Schooling in Capitalist America: Educational Reform and the Contradictions of Economic Life by Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis

[Deleted]

Aug 1, 2013 13:06:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 1, 2013 8:58:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Look.  Teachers negotiate contracts.  And, they way they negotiate contract is the way we choose to set it.  The teachers did not create the way contract negotiations happen.  They have to negotiate under the prescribed rules.  So, if you don't like the way it is done, then lobby your state or govt to change this.

  As for money, for some reason, the better pay argument seems to apply to every OTHER profession except for teachers.  For some reason you have to pay well for talent but we dont' apply that to teachers.  Go figure.

  But, as i said, if you just want to warehouse your kids all day with baby sitting and low wages, then hire the cheapest people you can find to sit with your kids all day.  Gawd.

Right now, if your kids are in government run schools- you're paying top dollar for babysitters to indoctrinate your kids.

 No, we pay for coaches to exploit them.
 For example:

 from linkhttp://blogs.courant.com/capitol_watch/2010/02/top-salaries-13-uconn-and-ucon.html

As University of Connecticut students protest a proposed tuition increase of 6.3 percent, a new survey of public records shows that the highest-paid state employees work at UConn.

The information, obtained through a Freedom of Information request, shows that basketball coach Jim Calhoun was paid $1.58 million, while football head coach Randy Edsall was paid $1.36 million in 2008. The women's basketball coach, Geno Auriemma, received $1,050,000.

Overall, 13 UConn employees - including eight at the UConn Health Center in Farmington - were paid more than $500,000. The university president, Michael J. Hogan, received $616,000 in state funds that year.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 1, 2013 20:05:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 1, 2013 18:44:10 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

...

And even more from Paul's link:

In cooperation with one another in regional, and inter-regional networks, such community colleges could not only share what they produce, and organize events such as film festivals, they could attend to the problems of their particular community entirely beyond the profit-based demands of the physically, psychologically and environmentally destructive market-economy, and beyond the State as well.

Damn Paul, you radical you. I love it.


I would also recommend:
Pedagogy of the Oppressed written by educator Paulo Freire and Schooling in Capitalist America: Educational Reform and the Contradictions of Economic Life by Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis

bills- how familiar are you with the Finnish model of education?

[billisonboard]

Aug 1, 2013 21:46:44 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

...
bills- how familiar are you with the Finnish model of education?

Not at all.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 1, 2013 21:56:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 1, 2013 21:46:44 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

...
bills- how familiar are you with the Finnish model of education?

Not at all.

it is the most successful public education system in the world.  it is very interesting how they do it.  it is built on a model that emphasizes creativity, and completely ignores competition.  can you imagine anything more foreign than that idea in the US?

www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

here is why i give a shit- other than the obvious reason that Finnish kids are better educated per dollar than any kids in the world.  the type of education they get is very germane in a society that is interested in succeeding by INNOVATING.  if we want to be the world's burger flippers, then we should keep right on making our little robots, and watch as income disparity goes through the roof, since there is no demand for little robots at $10/hr.  i would love it if we would scrap that standardized testing robot education model for something better.  i give it about a 1% chance of happening, much to the detriment of anyone OTHER than the 1%.

[EVT1]

Aug 1, 2013 13:06:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 1, 2013 8:58:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Look.  Teachers negotiate contracts.  And, they way they negotiate contract is the way we choose to set it.  The teachers did not create the way contract negotiations happen.  They have to negotiate under the prescribed rules.  So, if you don't like the way it is done, then lobby your state or govt to change this.

  As for money, for some reason, the better pay argument seems to apply to every OTHER profession except for teachers.  For some reason you have to pay well for talent but we dont' apply that to teachers.  Go figure.

  But, as i said, if you just want to warehouse your kids all day with baby sitting and low wages, then hire the cheapest people you can find to sit with your kids all day.  Gawd.

Right now, if your kids are in government run schools- you're paying top dollar for babysitters to indoctrinate your kids.

That's ridiculous.

Schools prevent indoctrination from idiot parents.  Probably why some home school- wouldn't want junior to have an independent thought or question things.....

Funny though- some of the hardcore conservative folks are trying like hell to push their bullshit into textbooks- and at the very least control the curriculums.  That is indoctrination- and yet they accuse teachers of it.  It is their MO- blame the other side for doing what you are doing.

I am assuming they are targeting the dumber students that won't make college because if anything college will pull back the curtain- no doubt to be explained by just more 'liberal indoctrination'.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 1, 2013 22:05:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 1, 2013 21:56:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Not at all.

it is the most successful public education system in the world.  it is very interesting how they do it.  it is built on a model that emphasizes creativity, and completely ignores competition.  can you imagine anything more foreign than that idea in the US?

www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

here is why i give a shit- other than the obvious reason that Finnish kids are better educated per dollar than any kids in the world.  the type of education they get is very germane in a society that is interested in succeeding by INNOVATING.  if we want to be the world's burger flippers, then we should keep right on making our little robots, and watch as income disparity goes through the roof, since there is no demand for little robots at $10/hr.  i would love it if we would scrap that standardized testing robot education model for something better.  i give it about a 1% chance of happening, much to the detriment of anyone OTHER than the 1%.

My mother went over there for a tour of their education system. She said she couldn't get over how miserable the people were. I guess they learn a lot (although "a lot" is only a tiny bit more than Canada, where the education is as or more competitive than in the US) but apparently the schools were just plain depressing. Depressed teachers. Depressed students. Depressed teaching assistants.

She couldn't figure out if it was cultural, or a byproduct of their particular method, or something else entirely.

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2013 0:13:09 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

My mother went over there for a tour of their education system. ... just plain depressing. Depressed teachers. Depressed students. Depressed teaching assistants.

She couldn't figure out if it was cultural, or a byproduct of their particular method, or something else entirely.

Maybe it was having to deal with another damn tour group coming through to disrupt their day.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 1, 2013 22:24:45 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Aug 1, 2013 13:06:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Right now, if your kids are in government run schools- you're paying top dollar for babysitters to indoctrinate your kids.

That's ridiculous.

Schools prevent indoctrination from idiot parents.  Probably why some home school- wouldn't want junior to have an independent thought or question things.....

Funny though- some of the hardcore conservative folks are trying like hell to push their bullshit into textbooks- and at the very least control the curriculums.  That is indoctrination- and yet they accuse teachers of it.  It is their MO- blame the other side for doing what you are doing.

I am assuming they are targeting the dumber students that won't make college because if anything college will pull back the curtain- no doubt to be explained by just more 'liberal indoctrination'.

Idiot parents send their kids to government run schools.  Better parents send their kids to private schools.  The best parents homeschool- homeschooled kids outperform students from even the best private schools- public school performance? Hardly worth mentioning in comparison to homeschooled kids.

Homeschoolers represent a threat to government and statism, this is your real problem with it.  You can almost feel how threatened you are by the notion of people who cannot be controlled in reading your rant.  The arrogance, the condescension, the fear and the anger- all coming through loud and clear.  

Children do not belong to the state. 

And we sure as hell don't need our kids learning that Mohammed is God's Messenger:  
www.westernjournalism.com/school-defends-textbook-calling-muhammad-gods-messenger/

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

When it comes to education- I'm a full-blown libertarian.

www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/homeschooling-the-public-schools-invasive-species#ixzz2aZCBtDiU

Homeschooling: The Public Schools’ Invasive Species
JULY 30, 2013 by WENDY MCELROY

To government, homeschooling resembles a weed that spreads and resists control. To homeschooling parents, it is the flowering of knowledge and values within children who have been abandoned or betrayed by public schools. A great tension exists between the two perspectives. Homeschooling’s continued growth has only heightened it.
The federal government has reacted by attempting to increase its control over homeschooling, for example, by pushing for increased regulation of homeschool curricula. But the federal government is hindered by certain factors. For one thing, education is generally the prerogative of individual states. Nevertheless, the federal government can often impose its will by threatening to withhold federal funds from states that do not comply with its measures.

But homeschooling parents cannot be threatened by a withdrawal of money they don't receive. As it is, they are paying double. They pay taxes to support public schools from which they draw no benefit and they pay again in homeschooling money and in terms of lost opportunities such as the full-time employment of both parents. The “profit” they receive is a solid education for their children. What they want from the government is to be left alone.

The federal government is also hindered by not being able to play the “it's for the children” card that justifies so many intrusive policies. Homeschooled children routinely display better development than public school students.

A 2012 article in Education News called the “consistently high placement of homeschooled kids on standardized assessment exams ... one of the most celebrated benefits of homeschooling.” Education News compared the quality of homeschooling to that of public schooling. “Those who are independently educated typically score between the 65th and 89th percentile on such exams, while those attending traditional schools average on the 50th percentile. Furthermore, the achievement gaps, long plaguing school systems ... aren’t present in the homeschooling environment. There’s no difference in achievement between sexes, income levels, or race/ethnicity.” Studies also indicate that homeschooled children are better socialized with both peers and adults.


Read more: www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/homeschooling-the-public-schools-invasive-species#ixzz2aoehlD6V

[billisonboard]

... homeschooling parents ... pay taxes to support public schools from which they draw no benefit ...

All taxpayers pay taxes to support public schools without regard to whether they have children in the schools or not. No one is taxed to educate their own child.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 2, 2013 0:36:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2013 0:13:09 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

My mother went over there for a tour of their education system. ... just plain depressing. Depressed teachers. Depressed students. Depressed teaching assistants.

She couldn't figure out if it was cultural, or a byproduct of their particular method, or something else entirely.

Maybe it was having to deal with another damn tour group coming through to disrupt their day.

Could be.

Or it could have been seasonal affective. They're at a pretty good latitude in Finland.

[workpublic]

Schools prevent indoctrination from idiot parents.

um, your statism is showing.

what has finland done(or is doing) for the world again?