NC Teachers Have To Do A Good Job

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2013 9:03:35 GMT -5 workpublic said:

...
what has finland done(or is doing) for the world again?

"um, your statism is showing. "

[Opti]

I'm not sure if it is Finland, but one of the happiest places on the Globe culturally doesn't
look very happy to us here in the US. Their culture is to not stand out and to usually look at
their shoes when anyone passes. Looking directly at people is considered not polite with people
who don't know.

My guess is it was cultural Virgil.

[workpublic]

no, that would be my jingoism

[workpublic]

isn't bhutan the happiest place?

[billisonboard]

same coin

[billisonboard]

[djAdvocate]

Aug 2, 2013 9:03:35 GMT -5 workpublic said:

Schools prevent indoctrination from idiot parents.

um, your statism is showing.

what has finland done(or is doing) for the world again?

when has Finland bombed an innocent country, murdering 100k people, again?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 2, 2013 8:47:14 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

... homeschooling parents ... pay taxes to support public schools from which they draw no benefit ...

All taxpayers pay taxes to support public schools without regard to whether they have children in the schools or not. No one is taxed to educate their own child.

No, but we are taxed to educate other people's children.  That is the complaint.  So, you're actually making the point- homeschooling parents pay taxes to support public schools from which they draw no benefit- well, unless you count as a benefit an institution whose job it is to turn out people that will never be able to compete with their kids. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 2, 2013 9:03:35 GMT -5 workpublic said:

Schools prevent indoctrination from idiot parents.

um, your statism is showing.

what has finland done(or is doing) for the world again?

Hey- if some statist utopia is doing a good job, and we- as in parents- can glean something from it, and use it- great.  I tend to greatly discount the anecdotes from small, homogeneous countries.  

[djAdvocate]

Aug 2, 2013 13:00:22 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 2, 2013 9:03:35 GMT -5 workpublic said:

Schools prevent indoctrination from idiot parents.

um, your statism is showing.

what has finland done(or is doing) for the world again?

Hey- if some statist utopia is doing a good job, and we- as in parents- can glean something from it, and use it- great.  I tend to greatly discount the anecdotes from small, homogeneous countries.  

why?  a lot of neighborhoods are small and homogenous.  why could it not apply to small, homogenous neighborhoods?

edit: i just looked up our county stats.  our population is 92.4% white.  not terribly different than Finland.  the "diversity" thing sounds like a lame excuse to me.  especially after reading how they immerse immigrants.

edit2: thinking about this some more, i bet over 90% of US zip codes are about as "diverse" as Finland.

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2013 12:57:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 2, 2013 8:47:14 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

All taxpayers pay taxes to support public schools without regard to whether they have children in the schools or not. No one is taxed to educate their own child.

No, but we are taxed to educate other people's children.  That is the complaint.  So, you're actually making the point- homeschooling parents pay taxes to support public schools from which they draw no benefit- well, unless you count as a benefit an institution whose job it is to turn out people that will never be able to compete with their kids. 

No, we are taxed to educate our youthful fellow citizens. One can argue that it is not an appropriate role for government but it is what public education was brought into existence to do.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 2, 2013 13:00:22 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 2, 2013 9:03:35 GMT -5 workpublic said:

Schools prevent indoctrination from idiot parents.

um, your statism is showing.

what has finland done(or is doing) for the world again?

Hey- if some statist utopia is doing a good job, and we- as in parents- can glean something from it, and use it- great.  I tend to greatly discount the anecdotes from small, homogeneous countries.  

Small, homogeneous countries with manageable governments and incredibly high taxes.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 2, 2013 14:50:11 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Aug 2, 2013 13:00:22 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Hey- if some statist utopia is doing a good job, and we- as in parents- can glean something from it, and use it- great.  I tend to greatly discount the anecdotes from small, homogeneous countries.  

Small, homogeneous countries with manageable governments and incredibly high taxes.

what kind of person knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 2, 2013 16:24:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 2, 2013 14:50:11 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Small, homogeneous countries with manageable governments and incredibly high taxes.

what kind of person knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?

Well the people that don't pay for shit sure don't know the price- or the value.

[cereb]

Aug 1, 2013 18:44:10 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 1, 2013 17:34:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I am sorry you have such a low view of teachers.  My kids go to Public School and are doing fine.  The vast majority of teachers are really trying to do a great job.  Yeah a few bad apples.  But, i think they work hard and i certainly would not want to do their job.

The vast majority of teachers couldn't do a good job if they wanted to.  Their hands are tied- and they're about to be virtually obsolete once communist core kicks in.

There's widespread agreement on this matter, btw- it's going to be a unifying movement, and I'm going to be the tip of the spear raking in the dough:

www.alternet.org/education/educating-idiots

What Passes for Education In America Is Often Just Indoctrination

The basic model and function of education is by and large not seriously questioned at all.

At its worst, however, education is arguably not even education at all. What passes for education is, more often than not, merely indoctrination. And such is the condition of virtually all levels of education in the US today. Subjected to the demands of the market and the state, rather than facilitating a good faith examination of the world, education functions as a massive industry busy creating and recreating this society's "idiotic" projects, along with its ideologies. Rather than critical thought, it is but a tool of a type of thought so uncritical it leads one to wonder whether it even qualifies as thought at all.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 2, 2013 16:33:14 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 2, 2013 16:24:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what kind of person knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?

Well the people that don't pay for shit sure don't know the price- or the value.

most people are very grateful for what they are given.  in my case, i am very grateful that i was raised by parents that love me, in a safe neighborhood, with decent schools.  i am thankful that, even though we never really had much, we never went hungry.  i am thankful to live in a great state, in a great country, and to be blessed with a healthy body and mind.  i didn't do anything for ANY of that.  it was given to me.  and i thank my lucky stars for it every day.

so, i presume you were speaking personally, there?

[djAdvocate]

Aug 2, 2013 20:08:19 GMT -5 cereb said:

Aug 1, 2013 18:44:10 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The vast majority of teachers couldn't do a good job if they wanted to.  Their hands are tied- and they're about to be virtually obsolete once communist core kicks in.

There's widespread agreement on this matter, btw- it's going to be a unifying movement, and I'm going to be the tip of the spear raking in the dough:

aren't happy accidents the greatest thing ever?

[EVT1]

Aug 2, 2013 12:57:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 2, 2013 8:47:14 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

All taxpayers pay taxes to support public schools without regard to whether they have children in the schools or not. No one is taxed to educate their own child.

No, but we are taxed to educate other people's children.  That is the complaint.  So, you're actually making the point- homeschooling parents pay taxes to support public schools from which they draw no benefit- well, unless you count as a benefit an institution whose job it is to turn out people that will never be able to compete with their kids. 

Like to see you back that up.  They may or may not 'on average' score higher on some tests than other schools but that in no way means they outmatch other kids.  You are insulting a lot of very smart students out there attending public schools. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 2, 2013 21:32:17 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 2, 2013 16:33:14 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well the people that don't pay for shit sure don't know the price- or the value.

most people are very grateful for what they are given.  in my case, i am very grateful that i was raised by parents that love me, in a safe neighborhood, with decent schools.  i am thankful that, even though we never really had much, we never went hungry.  i am thankful to live in a great state, in a great country, and to be blessed with a healthy body and mind.  i didn't do anything for ANY of that.  it was given to me.  and i thank my lucky stars for it every day.

so, i presume you were speaking personally, there?

I think beyond myself, dj.  Yes, I am grateful for everything I have, and have had that I had nothing to do with- and it's a lot.  Birth in the greatest nation in human history out of 6 some odd billion people- is a fluke.  And one of the greatest blessings of life.  If my ancestors fled a continent in chaos, or came over in the belly of a slave ship- it wouldn't matter much to me so long as I'm here.  

But I don't want to stop with me, I want to give these gifts to other people.  Because while being born in the greatest nation in human history is a crap shoot- how it became the greatest nation in human history, and how it will stay that way is not.  And because what we have is not all attributable to happy circumstances, but to the hard work and ingenuity of ordinary people like you and I who get up and go and do the very best we can for ourselves, largely unimpeded by dictatorial regimes, war, absolute poverty, famine, and pestilence-- and because this idea- this idea of leaving people alone to do their very best, and letting them suffer the consequences of failure, and keep the rewards of success- is just that- an idea- then it can be transmitted.

I can't support people who would look at those parents who are not fortunate enough to live in a safe neighborhood with decent schools and tell them they can't have a choice because it'll infringe on the union fiefdom.  

The teacher's union is the real bully in public schools.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 2, 2013 21:46:12 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Aug 2, 2013 12:57:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

No, but we are taxed to educate other people's children.  That is the complaint.  So, you're actually making the point- homeschooling parents pay taxes to support public schools from which they draw no benefit- well, unless you count as a benefit an institution whose job it is to turn out people that will never be able to compete with their kids. 

Like to see you back that up.  They may or may not 'on average' score higher on some tests than other schools but that in no way means they outmatch other kids.  You are insulting a lot of very smart students out there attending public schools. 

The earth rotates around the sun.  Some statements don't require back up- though I could.  Easily.  Back it up.  I think it would be more productive if you just did your own homework, because I've had enough experience in discussions with you that I already know that it does not matter how much documentation I provide you- you are so wed to your ideology and worldview that you will ignore, and deflect even the most rigorous research and data supplied to you if it doesn't fit your views.  The fact is that if you do not already know that homeschoolers significantly outperform all others- its' because you do not want to know.

Btw- I did back it up.  It's already in one of my posts- if you didn't care to read it, you won't care to read anything else I post.  You're as pointless as a sphere.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 2, 2013 21:48:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 2, 2013 21:32:17 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

most people are very grateful for what they are given.  in my case, i am very grateful that i was raised by parents that love me, in a safe neighborhood, with decent schools.  i am thankful that, even though we never really had much, we never went hungry.  i am thankful to live in a great state, in a great country, and to be blessed with a healthy body and mind.  i didn't do anything for ANY of that.  it was given to me.  and i thank my lucky stars for it every day.

so, i presume you were speaking personally, there?

I think beyond myself, dj.  Yes, I am grateful for everything I have, and have had that I had nothing to do with- and it's a lot.  Birth in the greatest nation in human history out of 6 some odd billion people- is a fluke.  And one of the greatest blessings of life.  If my ancestors fled a continent in chaos, or came over in the belly of a slave ship- it wouldn't matter much to me so long as I'm here.  

But I don't want to stop with me, I want to give these gifts to other people.  Because while being born in the greatest nation in human history is a crap shoot- how it became the greatest nation in human history, and how it will stay that way is not.  And because what we have is not all attributable to happy circumstances, but to the hard work and ingenuity of ordinary people like you and I who get up and go and do the very best we can for ourselves, largely unimpeded by dictatorial regimes, war, absolute poverty, famine, and pestilence-- and because this idea- this idea of leaving people alone to do their very best, and letting them suffer the consequences of failure, and keep the rewards of success- is just that- an idea- then it can be transmitted.

I can't support people who would look at those parents who are not fortunate enough to live in a safe neighborhood with decent schools and tell them they can't have a choice because it'll infringe on the union fiefdom.  

The teacher's union is the real bully in public schools.

i wouldn't really know.  my son's teachers are not unionized.

[mmhmm]

Aug 2, 2013 21:53:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 2, 2013 21:48:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I think beyond myself, dj.  Yes, I am grateful for everything I have, and have had that I had nothing to do with- and it's a lot.  Birth in the greatest nation in human history out of 6 some odd billion people- is a fluke.  And one of the greatest blessings of life.  If my ancestors fled a continent in chaos, or came over in the belly of a slave ship- it wouldn't matter much to me so long as I'm here.  

But I don't want to stop with me, I want to give these gifts to other people.  Because while being born in the greatest nation in human history is a crap shoot- how it became the greatest nation in human history, and how it will stay that way is not.  And because what we have is not all attributable to happy circumstances, but to the hard work and ingenuity of ordinary people like you and I who get up and go and do the very best we can for ourselves, largely unimpeded by dictatorial regimes, war, absolute poverty, famine, and pestilence-- and because this idea- this idea of leaving people alone to do their very best, and letting them suffer the consequences of failure, and keep the rewards of success- is just that- an idea- then it can be transmitted.

I can't support people who would look at those parents who are not fortunate enough to live in a safe neighborhood with decent schools and tell them they can't have a choice because it'll infringe on the union fiefdom.  

The teacher's union is the real bully in public schools.

i wouldn't really know.  my son's teachers are not unionized.

*chuckle*  No unions here.  I can't say the education system has benefited, however. 

[djAdvocate]

Aug 2, 2013 21:59:48 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Aug 2, 2013 21:53:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i wouldn't really know.  my son's teachers are not unionized.

*chuckle*  No unions here.  I can't say the education system has benefited, however. 

me neither.  our schools suck around here.

[cereb]

"aren't happy accidents the greatest thing ever?"

Absolutely. :-)

[EVT1]

Aug 2, 2013 21:52:11 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 2, 2013 21:46:12 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Like to see you back that up.  They may or may not 'on average' score higher on some tests than other schools but that in no way means they outmatch other kids.  You are insulting a lot of very smart students out there attending public schools. 

The earth rotates around the sun.  Some statements don't require back up- though I could.  Easily.  Back it up.  I think it would be more productive if you just did your own homework, because I've had enough experience in discussions with you that I already know that it does not matter how much documentation I provide you- you are so wed to your ideology and worldview that you will ignore, and deflect even the most rigorous research and data supplied to you if it doesn't fit your views.  The fact is that if you do not already know that homeschoolers significantly outperform all others- its' because you do not want to know.

Btw- I did back it up.  It's already in one of my posts- if you didn't care to read it, you won't care to read anything else I post.  You're as pointless as a sphere.

Didn't think you could. Your statement was that public schools are putting out poor products that cannot compete with the superior home made version. I maintain that is bullshit. On average they will probably do better- or they should assuming the parents are competent- but that in no way puts them on some pedestal over the other kids.  The same shit goes for private schools.  Of course their numbers will be better because of the extra attention- that's what being wealthy provides- but still in the end those lowly public school kids compete just fine- I am sure plenty of home schooled kids work for them.

 

[workpublic]

when has Finland bombed an innocent country, murdering 100k people, again?

never. they pretty much capitulate when evil strikes.

what's an "innocent" country and do you believe irag is one?

[djAdvocate]

Aug 3, 2013 8:53:34 GMT -5 workpublic said:

when has Finland bombed an innocent country, murdering 100k people, again?

never. they pretty much capitulate when evil strikes.

yeah, you are right.  Afghanistan is a much "better" nation than Finland for not doing that. 

what's an "innocent" country and do you believe irag is one?

an innocent country is one that doesn't engage in acts of aggression against the US, yet gets the smack down.  and yes, both Afghanistan and Iraq qualify by that standard. 

my point was this: we do a lot of good in the world.  but we do a lot of evil as well.  i am not sure, on balance, we are any better than Finland in the final analysis.  it depends on how strongly you feel about the evil.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 3, 2013 7:43:10 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Years ago, seeing the handwriting on the wall regarding our PS system and the way homeschooling was becoming so popular, I tried to tell my long-time teacher brother that he needed to redirect his career. However, he needed his retirement and decided to hang on.
He is now in a school that has done away with tenure and things there are falling apart fast, with teachers no longer willing or unable to return next year. Many of the older, higher paid teachers are being harassed out. It's getting ugly, from what he tells me.
He is one of the school's best teachers, so he's okay, but said he will be retiring early, as it's all falling apart and he's not willing to put up with anymore crap.

Finland solved this problem by requiring Masters degrees of teachers, and paying for them to get them.  so many people applied, that they were able to choose the most qualified persons to get them.  it made for a very robust teaching corp.  it also made it a very prestigious profession overnight.

[workpublic]

afghanistan innocent? they welcomed UBL and AQ. Irag? they kill their own. next you'll be telling me pakistan is innocent. how about north korea? angels?

yes we're not perfect but we are still the best shot the world has.

and i believe that our leaders/movers and shakers/power brokers  are mostly evil.

[billisonboard]

Aug 3, 2013 10:14:22 GMT -5 workpublic said:

... we are still the best shot the world has.
...

The United States government is "the best shot for the world" in what way?