AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 18, 2013 17:02:44 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 18, 2013 17:07:53 GMT -5
This is more suited to current events than P&M, Paul. I'm going to move it there.
mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 18:19:13 GMT -5
the fascist takeover of Detroit continues.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 19, 2013 8:29:19 GMT -5
Give it back to Ohio.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 19, 2013 8:51:56 GMT -5
...if we're going to talk the current events side of this issue, then let me be first the say that the NFC north will not see much movement in their standings... what this does to the NFL schedule and draft is an entirely different story... ...and if we're allowed to poach the new guys, then I think I want Corey Fuller and Larry Warford... eta ...and Brandon Hepburn... sorry, buddy, you were picked too late in the draft, too...
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Jul 19, 2013 9:48:23 GMT -5
why don't they just raise taxes to cover the under funds?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 19, 2013 11:43:15 GMT -5
FLASHBACK:
dj,
I guess if you regard getting AWAY from a bloated political class, a sea of government dependents, and greedy public sector unions 'fascist'...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 19, 2013 11:44:23 GMT -5
why don't they just raise taxes to cover the under funds?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 19, 2013 11:45:42 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 12:01:47 GMT -5
FLASHBACK: dj, I guess if you regard getting AWAY from a bloated political class, a sea of government dependents, and greedy public sector unions 'fascist'... no, but i would regard depriving 51% of the people of a municipality the right to govern their own affairs, appointing people through an administrative executive channel that the people had no say in, and then ransacking the community is fascism. the core principle of a democracy or a republic is the right of people to choose their leadership. lose that, and you lose the republic. this is not an opinion. it is a fact.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 19, 2013 12:10:39 GMT -5
FLASHBACK: dj, I guess if you regard getting AWAY from a bloated political class, a sea of government dependents, and greedy public sector unions 'fascist'... no, but i would regard depriving 51% of the people of a municipality the right to govern their own affairs, appointing people through an administrative executive channel that the people had no say in, and then ransacking the community is fascism. the core principle of a democracy or a republic is the right of people to choose their leadership. lose that, and you lose the republic. this is not an opinion. it is a fact. a) We don't live in a democracy. Nevertheless, they chose their own leadership and this is the result of the leaders they chose. This is the result for America as well. You may as well get used to the idea that this is where the United States Federal Government is going. Detroit has but the distinction of arriving there first. b) This is not a ransacking. This is the fruit of a ransacking. This is the result of the people of Detroit, by and large, ransacking their own city. c) Our founders were well aware of how we could and how we will ultimately 'lose the republic'. The left has made sure we've done everything they warned us about.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 19, 2013 12:12:03 GMT -5
The leaders the people of Detroit, among other things, chose to pay $300,000 for the original "Howdy Doody Show" puppet.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 14:10:38 GMT -5
The leaders the people of Detroit, among other things, chose to pay $300,000 for the original "Howdy Doody Show" puppet. i believe that is their prerogative. and candidly, i will take that over putting the 10 commandments in front of the county courthouse any day.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 14:11:15 GMT -5
no, but i would regard depriving 51% of the people of a municipality the right to govern their own affairs, appointing people through an administrative executive channel that the people had no say in, and then ransacking the community is fascism. the core principle of a democracy or a republic is the right of people to choose their leadership. lose that, and you lose the republic. this is not an opinion. it is a fact. a) We don't live in a democracy. what part of "or a republic" don't you understand?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 14:12:32 GMT -5
Nevertheless, they chose their own leadership and this is the result of the leaders they chose. no. they chose their own leadership, and that leadership was replaced by leaders that they did NOT choose.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 14:16:20 GMT -5
Paul: if this happened in West Palm, you would be freaking out completely. admit it.
losing your right to choose your government is un-American, imo. what is yours?
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Jul 19, 2013 14:17:25 GMT -5
so you say let them wallow in their choice? don't do anything, let them continue to vote for their own destruction?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 21:17:03 GMT -5
so you say let them wallow in their choice? don't do anything, let them continue to vote for their own destruction? they would probably have had to file for bankruptcy on their own, wp. just like liberal old Orange County had to. people make mistakes, including municipalities. but it is not the job of the state to step in and usurp the local authority of a citizenry. for you OR Paul to argue otherwise is a complete contradiction of your standard libertarian positions. f(*king socialists.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 20, 2013 8:41:45 GMT -5
so you say let them wallow in their choice? don't do anything, let them continue to vote for their own destruction? they would probably have had to file for bankruptcy on their own, wp. just like liberal old Orange County had to. people make mistakes, including municipalities. but it is not the job of the state to step in and usurp the local authority of a citizenry. for you OR Paul to argue otherwise is a complete contradiction of your standard libertarian positions. f(*king socialists. 1.2 million people did vote against the mismanagement of Detroit- well over 51% of the population voted...WITH THEIR FEET, dj. The fact of the matter is, dj, Detroit tried socialism, and it finally ran out of other people's money.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Jul 20, 2013 10:19:01 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 20, 2013 11:35:02 GMT -5
they would probably have had to file for bankruptcy on their own, wp. just like liberal old Orange County had to. people make mistakes, including municipalities. but it is not the job of the state to step in and usurp the local authority of a citizenry. for you OR Paul to argue otherwise is a complete contradiction of your standard libertarian positions. f(*king socialists. 1.2 million people did vote against the mismanagement of Detroit- well over 51% of the population voted...WITH THEIR FEET, dj. that is not voting. voting is done with a ballot, Paul. that is how a REPUBLIC works.The fact of the matter is, dj, Detroit tried socialism, and it finally ran out of other people's money. my problem is not with the spigot running out. i am fine with that. it has to do with a complete and utter lack of the right to self determination. again, if a democratic governor appointed someone to take over West Palm, against the will of West Palm, and threw it into bankruptcy without any input from you or other local citizens, how would you feel about that? by the way, the bankruptcy was declared unconstitutional by a Michigan judge 18 hours ago.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 20, 2013 11:35:39 GMT -5
f(*king dittoheads.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 20, 2013 18:16:11 GMT -5
Paul: if this happened in West Palm, you would be freaking out completely. admit it. losing your right to choose your government is un-American, imo. what is yours? Not really. As a not-particularly-staunch-conservative Indiana Governor says, "You'd be surprised the government you won't miss". I frankly don't feel sorry for the people getting stiffed. They're not really getting stiffed. They had a good run looting Detroit- hopefully they put some of it aside for a rainy day (in case you don't know, Detroit as $11 billion in unsecured debt, $9 billion of it is public employee pensions. They better get ready for a new deal).
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 20, 2013 18:23:51 GMT -5
1.2 million people did vote against the mismanagement of Detroit- well over 51% of the population voted...WITH THEIR FEET, dj. that is not voting. voting is done with a ballot, Paul. that is how a REPUBLIC works.The fact of the matter is, dj, Detroit tried socialism, and it finally ran out of other people's money. my problem is not with the spigot running out. i am fine with that. it has to do with a complete and utter lack of the right to self determination. again, if a democratic governor appointed someone to take over West Palm, against the will of West Palm, and threw it into bankruptcy without any input from you or other local citizens, how would you feel about that? by the way, the bankruptcy was declared unconstitutional by a Michigan judge 18 hours ago. dj, you live in a pretty interesting fantasy land where cities are "thrown" into bankruptcy at random by governors. The city government- over decades- bankrupted the city while the population fled on a scale we haven't seen since Europe circa 1939. The city has been steadily depopulating since about 1970, but in the 10 years between 2000 and 2010, the city's population plummeted 25%.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 20, 2013 19:37:06 GMT -5
my problem is not with the spigot running out. i am fine with that. it has to do with a complete and utter lack of the right to self determination. again, if a democratic governor appointed someone to take over West Palm, against the will of West Palm, and threw it into bankruptcy without any input from you or other local citizens, how would you feel about that? by the way, the bankruptcy was declared unconstitutional by a Michigan judge 18 hours ago. dj, you live in a pretty interesting fantasy land is this your new favourite word? how cute.where cities are "thrown" into bankruptcy at random by governors. um...no. i never said that the governor threw Detroit (or West Palm, in my example) into bankruptcy.The city government- over decades- bankrupted the city while the population fled on a scale we haven't seen since Europe circa 1939. The city has been steadily depopulating since about 1970, but in the 10 years between 2000 and 2010, the city's population plummeted 25%. all true. what i object to is the appointment of a city manager, and the disbarring of the local government. i think that is rather like a fascist takeover, and i would be furious if it were my town. localities have the right to self govern. period. for you to say otherwise is pretty un-libertarian and top down authoritarian. not what i expected, but not terribly surprising either.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 21, 2013 22:16:03 GMT -5
dj, I'm not sure how the law works that permits the governor to do what he did- and in fact, I think I might find myself in agreement with you that it isn't only wrong, but it may have been better to let the whole mess implode. As it stands, however, the governor probably saved what's left of the Dystopia of Detroit so that city workers might actually see some of their pension money. I'd have let them drown, but like you- I'm a bit more libertarian.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2013 14:58:30 GMT -5
dj, I'm not sure how the law works that permits the governor to do what he did- and in fact, I think I might find myself in agreement with you that it isn't only wrong, but it may have been better to let the whole mess implode. As it stands, however, the governor probably saved what's left of the Dystopia of Detroit so that city workers might actually see some of their pension money. I'd have let them drown, but like you- I'm a bit more libertarian. yeah, well, i will tell you how it worked. Michigan has a city manager law. i think it sucks. so did the voters of MI, so they defeated it by ballot measure. then, guess what? the legislature drafted a whole new city manager law that made it illegal to overturn it by ballot measure. then the governor appointed a city manager and Detroit who then took the city to bankruptcy court. i just don't like the way it went down. i have no problem whatsoever with the end result. they were going there anyway.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Jul 23, 2013 10:58:27 GMT -5
Stop being so factual!! None of that has any bearing on why the city can't give more handouts!!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 23, 2013 11:30:35 GMT -5
Leaving is voting, dj. I know you don't think so- but the fact of the matter is that people living somewhere where there is a critical mass of brain dead dependents HAV NO CHOICE but to VOTE WITH THEIR FEET.
It's no secret I've wanted to move for a long time, but my wife and my SIL both moved businesses out of IL years ago just because they got taxed out. I'm friends with a lot of refugees down here- people exiled from places like NY, NJ, Detroit, CA, and other places where they truly didn't have a vote. Illinois has been governing against the will of the people for decades. Illinois is so bad, it might beat CA to the punch in being the first State bankruptcy.
dj, this is the first of many dominoes to fall. Detroit isn't unique, it's just the worst and first.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 23, 2013 14:45:50 GMT -5
no. leaving is dissolving the social contract. it is the OPPOSITE of voting.
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