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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 14:35:29 GMT -5
And your DH needs to understand that selling the boat doesn't fix your financial problems. It's just the first step. It's also enabling that you are the one paying the bills. He needs to sit down with you and write out the checks and be the one to look the kids in the eye and tell them that they can't get a new set of shoes because he needs to fish. By acting as the buffer between your DH and the finances and your DH and the other things that are being sacrificed for his hobby he doesn't have to face up to his behavior.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 14, 2013 14:36:05 GMT -5
BTW, Kara, you KNOW this thread will go into "sell the boat or divorce the selfish husband", right? You are not new here, so get ready
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 14:38:25 GMT -5
The boat isn't your only problem. You have $60K in CC debt. There are only 48 months in 2 years. Even if you went into debt $1000/month for the boat, somehow you racked up another $12,000 in consumer debt.
You have another $200/month or so that can be saved on the phone bill. Sorry but you guys can't afford 5 phones.
You are living beyond your means with more than the boat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 14:39:11 GMT -5
My DH can be equally selfish. We can afford it, they can't. So it's not that my DH is a better guy but different circumstances.
Since I've become a mother I have a lot less tolerance for adults that act like babies. Karaboo loves her husband and her kids - it must be tearing her up inside to be trying to make everyone happy. That's part of how they got here.
Frankly it's pretty rare to look at a budget and see one discretionary item that can be cut out that would put the budget back in balance even if they would still be staggering under the debt load.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 14:44:03 GMT -5
I think you are enabling if you put groceries and clothes on the cc and pay the boat payment. It makes him think you can afford it. You are right - it is enabling. I need to grow a pair myself to get over this. One of the past posts asked how much more we can make with OT. I forgot to respond to that. Our paychecks are usually more than the minimum; anywhere from $100-500 more based on the week/cycle. I just needed/wanted to be realistic about our actual bottom line pay because that extra is not guaranteed and doesn't happen all the time. Also - my job is cracking down on the OT, so I haven't gotten more than 2-3 hours extra per pay-check in the past couple of months. (side note - my coworker that I've been complaining about on other threads is getting 10+ hours OT per week = 20+ hour OT per pay-check for a while now - she's going to get slammed when they finally crack down on our department!) Having the OT has also helped to keep us afloat as well. Thinking we're only short $100 this week, it's easy to justify putting it on the CC this week and we'll make up for it next week. As you all know - the problem comes in where we're not able to make it up!
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 14:46:43 GMT -5
BTW, Kara, you KNOW this thread will go into "sell the boat or divorce the selfish husband", right? You are not new here, so get ready Yes, I know it will! Hence the reason for posting on EE instead of YM. I'm not THAT crazy you know!
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 14:52:51 GMT -5
The boat isn't your only problem. You have $60K in CC debt. There are only 48 months in 2 years. Even if you went into debt $1000/month for the boat, somehow you racked up another $12,000 in consumer debt. You have another $200/month or so that can be saved on the phone bill. Sorry but you guys can't afford 5 phones. You are living beyond your means with more than the boat. I get your point, but I'm not sure how much of that debt was existing before we got the boat. I still need to go back and see where we actually were at that point. We have been living beyond our means as well, but not quite to that point. Our biggest expense (besides the boat) is eating out, along with groceries. We probably spend Strike that - I'm going to the bank website now to see how much money we actually spend every month eating out. I'm scared to see the number!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 14:53:55 GMT -5
Yes, KaraBoo, you're enabling DH. By putting that boat anywhere but last on your list of priorities, you're definitely enabling him ... and building CC debt to do it. Don't put off the bankruptcy "talk". Do it now. Let him know the boat can either be sold NOW, or it can be taken from you in the bankruptcy process. He needs to understand exactly where you are with regard to your finances as a family ... whether he wants to hear it, or not. It's his responsibility to see to it your family has what it needs, and NOT after he gets what he wants.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 15:06:48 GMT -5
Okay - checking the food category on the bank website isn't an accurate view. It says we only spend ~$400 per month, including eating out. That's NOT accurate and I know it! Between the grocery store and farmer's market (and Sam's once a month), the average should be closer to $200 a week, not $100 a week. That doesn't include eating out. Eating out for our family of 6 is a minimum of $30, usually closer to $60. I know that difference isn't all on the CC's so I need to figure out where that money is actually going/coming from.
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constanz22
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Post by constanz22 on Jul 14, 2013 15:07:06 GMT -5
I think it would be a damn shame to file bk when selling the boat would give you the breathing room you need to attack the rest of the debt. Bk seems like overkill in this situation. You can afford your house and bills and even start whittling away your CC debt, but you can't afford the big boy toy. I agree with others, there are a million ways to fish without needing a 45k boat to do so. You are probably going to take a huge loss on the boat, but it needs to go, like yesterday. There are other spending/budget issues and you may have to make some tough choices for awhile. It will not be fun, but it will get you on the path to where you need to be. The first step is NO MORE SPENDING ON CC's. No more eating out either. For a family of six, this has to be a huge monthly expense!
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 15:20:17 GMT -5
Constanz - I agree that I think filing for BK is overkill, but I'm currently not seeing another way of getting my DH to actually sell the boat on his own. Granted, it's only been a couple of weeks at this point, but I'm ready for this to be solved yesterday while DH has only begun to actually see the issue. I've been talking about the issue of not having enough money for months now. It's just not sunk in to DH's brain that it is as bad as it is until now and he hasn't fully processed it yet (he is one that has to stew on a thought/idea/problem for a while on his own before he can comment on it).
To DH's credit though, he did go to work today (usually off on weekends) to try and pick up some more hours. He is afraid though that they will send him home early later in the week to avoid having to pay him OT. He doesn't like giving up his weekends and not getting paid OT for it, and I don't blame him, but he's doing it because of our money situation.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 15:24:21 GMT -5
Figured out the bank numbers - it wasn't including my debit card in the calculation (received a new card number several months ago and didn't update the budget tracker). It now more accurately reflects that we spend $8-900 a month, including eating out on the debit card (not including any eating out that we may have put on the CC).
I haven't used any of my CC's in the last month for anything, including gas and groceries, so this is closer to accurate.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 15:40:38 GMT -5
Have you sat down with your Dh about the bills? Id want him to come to the conclusion that the boat had to go on his own too, (you do enough mothering with the kids, its frustrating to have to do it with your spouse too), but you really want him to come to the conclusion to fail fast quickly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 15:46:42 GMT -5
I think $800-900 a month for groceries and eating out is pretty good for a family of 6! Unfortunately that means you are over your monthly income by $300 before you add in boat, clothing, gifts, etc.
Have you put your debt into a spreadsheet to see how long it's going to take to pay it off? How long would it take to get some of the smaller debt knocked out so you have more breathing room in your budget?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 15:50:12 GMT -5
I'm sorry you're having to deal with all this, KaraBoo. Sounds like both you and DH have some heavy life-lessons to learn. That's never much fun; however, this is a hill I'd choose to die on, were it me. Things like this can absolutely torpedo a marriage and take the whole family down with it. DH has to come to terms with the fact he isn't considering others at all, but is concentrated on his own good times at the expense of his family. You sound like you've recognized you've got a spending problem, too, and are ready to do what's necessary to deal with it. Now, DH has to get on board or this mess is going to continue to build until it sinks your ship.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 15:54:21 GMT -5
Have you sat down with your Dh about the bills? Id want him to come to the conclusion that the boat had to go on his own too, (you do enough mothering with the kids, its frustrating to have to do it with your spouse too), but you really want him to come to the conclusion to fail fast quickly. Yes, we did that during the week of July 1st (I don't remember the exact day - sorry). About two weeks before that, we had the talk about how far in debt we are and what we're struggling with exactly. I showed him ALL of the numbers, in black and white, and what we're behind on. This started because we didn't have the money to pay one of the credit card bills and we started receiving calls. I made DH answer the phone just to get him to realize that I wasn't over-exaggerating how far in the hole we are. Before this, I'd tell him that I'd need help with the bills and he'd help for one week and then blow it off because that one week we were fine - not taking in the big picture. I NEEDED him to see the big picture, but he wouldn't focus long enough to concentrate on it (another story entirely!). So....now he knows. I believe he's trying, but he just doesn't have the sense of urgency that I do. One of the things he wanted to try was to ask the bank where the boat loan is if they would refinance the boat for lower/longer payments. Flat out no on their end (I wish they had said that 2 years ago!). That was on July 5th that we talked to them. So - getting DH on board hasn't been going on too long. I'm just frustrated all the way around.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 16:04:21 GMT -5
I can sure understand your frustration, KaraBoo. As I said, this would be a hill I'd choose to die on!
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 16:10:00 GMT -5
Have you put your debt into a spreadsheet to see how long it's going to take to pay it off? How long would it take to get some of the smaller debt knocked out so you have more breathing room in your budget?
I used to have a really good spreadsheet put together that kept track of everything - however, I lost it when I transferred positions. I'm in the process of trying to reorganize that information - that's why I have such accurate numbers on our debts right now. However, I don't have all of the formulas in place for the long-term planning just yet. I'm figuring it will take us around 7-8 years to pay it all off just with a off-the-cuff guess because we're going to have other issues pop up in that time that we'll have to address as well.
Sounds like both you and DH have some heavy life-lessons to learn. That's never much fun; however, this is a hill I'd choose to die on, were it me. Things like this can absolutely torpedo a marriage and take the whole family down with it. It's not a hill for me, but it's probably right under the cut off mark. Now, if DH totally refused to make any concessions, that would be a different story, but I've seen him in action enough to know that he works at a much slower pace than I do. Something I'm ready to do yesterday after hearing about it right now, he'll get around to it 6 months from now and only if he sees the value in doing that something.
So....for this issue....I've been the one dealing with it and I'm ready for it to be gone yesterday. DH just now totally understands that it's an issue and while he understands it's a big deal, he might not appear to be concerned about it. The fact that he went to work today tells me he understands that if something doesn't change, then we're sunk.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 16:22:29 GMT -5
How about a different route? Here's what I think I'm hearing. You don't actually care about the boat, what you do care about is the money to bankroll said boat. If this is the case, I think there may be room for compromise. Either a. He sells the boat he has, and gets one way more affordable. I'm thinking bog standard, utilitarian, yep-she's-ugly-but-she-floats kind of boat that takes only gas money as maintenance. Until...you can both truly afford a better one. Or, b. he has to find a pt job to pay for the one he has now, and no money comes out of the house budget. No bailouts, no further negotiations and if it gets repossessed then that's the end of it. Both would accomplish the goal of having that money, which is now going towards the boat, directed towards hh needs instead. I can get behind a suggestion like this. I like it a lot and would support it 100%. However, (there's always a but/however isn't there?), if I know my DH, he will ask that any OT he works get directed towards the boat/payments. I think, at least for now, OT should be directed to the HH to catch up on bills so we're not behind - that's where my OT goes to because I know how much we're struggling (although, right now all OT is going towards all bills, including boat). Any response/suggestions for that?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:29:21 GMT -5
<p>Okay, enough about the boat. For now. I'd like to point out a couple of things. What you posted isn't actually a budget, it is a list of debt. There are some important expenses not listed. It is not realistic to say you won't be buying clothes. You have to include enough to cover new running shoes, winter boots, coats etc. Just because you don't put it down doesn't mean you won't spend it. You didn't list groceries or your eating out, so you can count yourself another $1000 behind per month. I also don't remember seeing gas on that list.<br><br>I think you need to make a budget listing the essentials first. You are going to run out of money long before you get to phones, cable and boats. <br><br>I don't know bankruptcy laws but are you allowed to write off $60,000 worth of debt if you have $100,000 sitting in retirement funds?</p>
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:42:37 GMT -5
I think it's fair to ask the OT be directed towards the household. For one thing if your DH is working a ton of overtime to pay for the boat and then using the boat on the weekends that leaves you taking care of all the kids and the housework so your DH can pay for his hobby. That's not a fair split. It's also not sustainable - if he can't get the OT he needs then you will be back in the same place regarding the payments.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:45:10 GMT -5
Okay, enough about the boat. For now. I'd like to point out a couple of things. What you posted isn't actually a budget, it is a list of debt. There are some important expenses not listed. It is not realistic to say you won't be buying clothes. You have to include enough to cover new running shoes, winter boots, coats etc. Just because you don't put it down doesn't mean you won't spend it. You didn't list groceries or your eating out, so you can count yourself another $1000 behind per month. I also don't remember seeing gas on that list.
I think you need to make a budget listing the essentials first. You are going to run out of money long before you get to phones, cable and boats.
I don't know bankruptcy laws but are you allowed to write off $60,000 worth of debt if you have $100,000 sitting in retirement funds? Yes, you're making the same mistake I made. Focusing on bills and not including all of your real expenses. That's why it's gotten so bad, and that's why it's going to keep getting bad. As bad as it looks now, it's not even the total picture because of what you're leaving out. To answer later's question, retirement accounts are exempt in bankruptcy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:48:22 GMT -5
I'm in the overspending boat too. I need to get a grip on my own finances. Writing a realistic budget and sticking to it is as hard as dieting.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 16:53:04 GMT -5
Later - good point! You're right, now that you mention it, it's not an actual budget....just what we owe and how much we owe and minimums. Okay - let's get to the meat of this (again, I know I'm going to miss things): An average week looks like this: DH brings home $600 (more or less, usually it's right at $600 though) that is deposited into our bills account. Every other week, I bring home around $950 deposited into the bills account, with $200 deposited into savings account. So, it looks like this on an average month: Wk 1 debit: $600 Wk 1 savings: $150 Wk 2 debit: $1550 Wk 2 savings: $200 Wk 3 debit: $600 Wk 3 savings: $150 Wk 4: $1550 Wk 4 savings: $200 Total Money in Debit: $4300 Total Money in Savings: $700 We have 4 checking accounts - DH's (his own debit), Mine (my own debit), Bills (no debit) and Kids (for child support - of which we receive none right now). Starting when we first had the major talk back in June, DH and I agreed to the following on spending: $100 per week into his debit to pay for his gas (both his truck and boat), his snuff, any eating out he does for work, and fun money. $200 per week into my debit to pay for my gas (suburban), groceries and fun money. If we go over, it comes out of our savings ($50 per week into 3 accounts - his savings, emergency fund savings and kids checking account - this pays for their school lunches and pays the minimum on the Kohl's account right now for cloths. Every other week, $50 goes into my savings). Now - subtract what we use for "spending money" from out totals, we have $3100 left to use for bills. Remember, retirement, medical insurance and medical spending all come out of our checks before we are paid. Okay - I hope I ran the numbers right - I'm sure someone will tell me if I added/subtracted wrong!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:57:44 GMT -5
Darnit, I want to help, but I don't want to do any math! lol Let me say that your priorities in the first post don't line up with your priorities as far as payments. The first 7 priorities come first no matter what, because their needs for your family. Kids are high priority, well if they're still growing, clothes and shoes should fall high on the list for reserved money.
You and DH are going to have to sit down and really think about your priorities. For me, I put every expense I had on the table and went through the list one by one to see how I could eliminate it or reduce it and how it would affect our lives if I did it. I didn't get my mind right about what was really important until I did that. You and your husband must do that and include every single expense, no waffling.
Family is your top 2 priorities. Looking at your lists, when you really really think about that and what it means, it's probably going to change everything.
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constanz22
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Post by constanz22 on Jul 14, 2013 16:59:54 GMT -5
I know a lot of people on YM are not huge Dave Ramsey fans, but he was a HUGE impetus for me to wake the F up and do something about my debt. I know the helplessness you feel. Been there. It was a long, hard road and I am still not completely out of debt. We're talking years long process, not months. I had to take a serious look at everything. Nothing was off the table. I got rid of cable for awhile, downgraded cell phone, worked 1-2 PT jobs on top of my full time job, didn't buy one new thing for a year or more, started heavily couponing since I had little/no money after my monthly obligations were paid, traded in my newish nice car for an ok car that was way cheaper to own and maintain. I would recommend you read "Total Money Makeover" by DR and make DH read it too. I can not even tell you HOW much better things are now. I went from not being able to pay my monthly obligations to now having about a $600/mo surplus (which is a lot as I am not a high earner. I just broke 50k this year). I just had to pay a $500 deductible for a car repair and just had to take on some additional debt for some excavation/drainage work at my house. I wasn't thrilled about taking on another payment, but it's more of an inconvenience than a crisis. Even 3 years ago, this would've put me in major crisis mode.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 17:05:17 GMT -5
I don't see a way out with letting some stuff go or bringing in a lot more money. Have you researched the BK laws where you live? Depending on what your gross income is, your options might be limited.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 14, 2013 17:07:05 GMT -5
Alrighty - reading over my own post, even I am confused! I swear, it's not that complicated!! At least....I didn't think it was! Week 1 - we are paid DH check of say $600 straight to the Bills account. Automatically, money is transferred from the Bills account to the various other accounts - $50 to DH's savings, $50 to emergency savings, $50 to Kids account. Leaving us $450 in the Bills account. Then we transfer $100 to DH's debit and $200 to my debit, leaving only $150 left to pay bills. (By the way - DH said I misunderstood him, he only wants enough money transferred every week to take his debit back to $100, no matter what the balance in his account is). An average week, if I drive just my Suburban, gas costs me $100. DH has a work truck, so only drives his truck on weekends/evenings. I've taken to driving DH's truck during the week instead as gas only runs $50-60 a week for his vehicle. Week 2 - we are paid DH check, plus my check - same scenario, but my check is divided $950 into Bills and $200 into my savings (set up this way a long time ago - I need to change it). I will transfer $150 out of my savings into the Bills. Same as above, only now the Bills account will have $150, plus my $1200 for a total of $1350. So for bills: Week 1: $150 Wk 2: $1350 Wk 3: $150 Wk 4: $1350 Total: $2970 Okay - I see I'm off somewhere by at least $130.... This is why I need HELP!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 17:13:26 GMT -5
Ok. Forget the accounts, loans and cc's for a minute. I think you're going at it backwards, because you're focused on trying to bridge the gap.
Do you know the minimum amount it takes to run your household (needs only) and provide everything the children need (I think you should include clothes, but not cell phones)? Unless you're going to move to reduce your household expenses, everything else has to fit around that, one way or another. Whatever won't fit, you have to let it go or bring in some more reliable income to cover it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 17:16:50 GMT -5
It's good to have some savings but at some point you're just shuffling money around if you put money into a savings account and then spend on the credit card for basics.
I like Constanz' Dave Ramsey recommendation. In his plan I believe you keep $500 in an EF and then throw everything at the debt. He is awesome for people that are literally stuck because their debt/income ratio.
Have you tried using Mint? It's online, free and quick. If you attach all your credit cards and checking accounts to it then you will be able to get a better sense of what you are actually spending on all categories as opposed to just your debt.
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