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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 8:38:09 GMT -5
I am bowing out of this conversation; we put the victim/the one that lost his life for just simply walking home on trial because: - he was expelled - he had pictures of him smoking marijuana (Raise hand: I am guilty on both counts so I better watch out) - did not dress properly - did not look like he belong - looked suspicious
And the best: - He should have ran
We got it!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 8:45:25 GMT -5
Hahahaha!!! Zimmerman gained at least 100 lbs from the night of the incident to the trial. He was not out of shape that night, but hey if that makes you feel better stick with that story! did you listen to the testimony from his trainer? he was COMPLETELY out of shape that is why he had joined the MMA class....to try and get INTO shape And his trainer definition of "out of shape" is universal? - I am out if shape I go train with a trainer for a marathon because I can't do or won't do more than 3 miles - my wife the cardio bunny is considered out of shape by bodybuilding / weight lifting standards - we are both out of shape when it comes to triathlon But an MMA trainer definition of out shape holds true for everyone. Got it!
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 17, 2013 8:54:36 GMT -5
So TM turned and said "why are you following me," and then what happened? WE DON'T KNOW. I don't know, you don't know and the freaking Pope doesn't know. Only 2 people know and one of the them is dead. I am so tired of hearing how it is TM's fault that he was walking around minding his own f-ing business when some nut job decides to follow him around with a gun.
I get the evidence didn't add up to enough to convict GZ. That's the way it goes in our justice system, and I am glad there needs to be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone, but if you people can't see the holes in GZ's story then it is because you don't WANT to see them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 9:11:22 GMT -5
exactly....we dont know
but people want to lock up GZ anyway...without evidence that proves anything other than he was stupid
as someone said above, i would rather have ten guilty men walk free, than one innocent go to prison
that is the society i want to live in.....
one where the STATE has to prove a man/woman committed a crime
not think they did....
or play on a juries emotions hoping mothers would convict someone for shooting a child because there for the grace of god go I
bad decisions....and being stupid isnt a crime
stop trying to convict GZ for those two things
and both were culpable for the altercation...to the extent we do not know....but it does leave "reasonable doubt" in most reasonable peoples eyes
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 17, 2013 9:20:38 GMT -5
yeah...so an out of shape GZ can run down a 17yr old in shape kid who has a lead on him Hahahaha!!! Zimmerman gained at least 100 lbs from the night of the incident to the trial. He was not out of shape that night, but hey if that makes you feel better stick with that story! You are correct cawiau. Zimmerman's weight at the time of his arrest April 11, 2012 indicated he weighed185 pounds according to Seminole County Sheriff's Office Inmate Booking Information. Zimmerman's emotional overeating was in full bloom. Martin's autopsy records indicate he weighed 170 pounds at the time of his death. Weight wise, they were pretty equal at the time of Martin's death. Height wise, Martin was 4 inches taller than Zimmerman. I don't consider a 4 inch difference to be much of an advantage for Martin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 9:28:00 GMT -5
I am bowing out of this conversation; we put the victim/the one that lost his life for just simply walking home on trial because: - he was expelled - he had pictures of him smoking marijuana (Raise hand: I am guilty on both counts so I better watch out) - did not dress properly - did not look like he belong - looked suspicious And the best: - He should have ran We got it! You were never in this conversation because you just keep going back to race. It isn't about race.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 17, 2013 9:28:28 GMT -5
exactly....we dont know but people want to lock up GZ anyway...without evidence that proves anything other than he was stupid as someone said above, i would rather have ten guilty men walk free, than one innocent go to prison that is the society i want to live in..... one where the STATE has to prove a man/woman committed a crime not think they did.... or play on a juries emotions hoping mothers would convict someone for shooting a child because there for the grace of god go I bad decisions....and being stupid isnt a crime stop trying to convict GZ for those two things and both were culpable for the altercation...to the extent we do not know....but it does leave "reasonable doubt" in most reasonable peoples eyes I completely agree with everything you just said and as I stated I am okay with verdict. My problem lies with the fact that certain people seem to believe GZ's actions are more justifiable than TM's when GZ set this entire chain of events in motion. People say that TM let his cockiness get the better of him, but how cocky do you think GZ was while in possession of that gun? I think he was pretty damn cocky. The 911 tape goes on for another 2 mins after the dispatcher told GZ not to follow TM. Do you think GZ was walking back to his car or to his home? I don't because the dispatcher asks him at least twice toward the end of the call where he would like to meet the police and GZ can't tell them. Instead he says just have the police call me when they get here. That is an indication to me that he intended to keep following TM and wasn't sure where he would be when the police got there. There are holes all over GZ's story - maybe not enough to convict him but certainly enough to make me wonder on a personal level if any of what he said is the truth. If we aren't going to convict GZ why do we feel the need to convict TM AFTER the guy is dead...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 9:36:05 GMT -5
exactly....we dont know but people want to lock up GZ anyway...without evidence that proves anything other than he was stupid as someone said above, i would rather have ten guilty men walk free, than one innocent go to prison that is the society i want to live in..... one where the STATE has to prove a man/woman committed a crime not think they did.... or play on a juries emotions hoping mothers would convict someone for shooting a child because there for the grace of god go I bad decisions....and being stupid isnt a crime stop trying to convict GZ for those two things and both were culpable for the altercation...to the extent we do not know....but it does leave "reasonable doubt" in most reasonable peoples eyes I completely agree with everything you just said and as I stated I am okay with verdict. My problem lies with the fact that certain people seem to believe GZ's actions are more justifiable than TM's when GZ set this entire chain of events in motion. People say that TM let his cockiness get the better of him, but how cocky do you think GZ was while in possession of that gun? I think he was pretty damn cocky. The 911 tape goes on for another 2 mins after the dispatcher told GZ not to follow TM. Do you think GZ was walking back to his car or to his home? I don't because the dispatcher asks him at least twice toward the end of the call where he would like to meet the police and GZ can't tell them. Instead he says just have the police call me when they get here. That is an indication to me that he intended to keep following TM and wasn't sure where he would be when the police got there. There are holes all over GZ's story - maybe not enough to convict him but certainly enough to make me wonder on a personal level if any of what he said is the truth. If we aren't going to convict GZ why do we feel the need to convict TM AFTER the guy is dead... Unlike a real jury, the jury of public opinion extends beyond the grave.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 9:45:55 GMT -5
who is convicting TM? all i see happening is a cry from "some" of the public that the outcome of the trial wasnt fair they want GZ punished....so now our glorious federal government will intervene our AG Eric Holder will put the full force of the government behind an investigation into GZ to try and dig up whatever they can Can they somehow come up with enough for a hate crime...... He is catering to the black community and the politics.... The hell with the law, or cases that actually need to be investigated.....this is big news....and hawt! got to take advantage while the fire is still stoked In the meantime, what is Eric Holder doing about all the black on black murders in LA and Chicago? Is is trying to quash the cartels and gangs in the inner cities where most of the countries murders take place? This case should have never been brought to trial....there wasnt enough evidence The original investigators knew it....the original DA knew it And the original chief of police of Sanford knew it Only after the politicians and white house got involved was a special prosecutor appointed, and she ended up with the exact same evidence they had to begin with This was always a no win for the state....politically and evidence wise.....they just were not smart enough to quit while ahead
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jul 17, 2013 10:03:01 GMT -5
I don't object to the verdict as there was no conclusive prove that GZ deliberately set out to kill Trayvon or that he initiated the physical confrontation. What I do find extraordinarily troubling in the discussion here is the posters who believe that GZ was in the right. I tend to believe that Trayvon threw the first punch because he was either scared or angry but I am 100% convinced that GZ is responsible for what happened that night. If he hadn't got out of his car or, most importantly, if he hadn't been carrying a gun, none of this would have happened. I also find it disgusting the way that Trayvon is being described as some hardened thug because he got into some trouble at school and smoked some weed. As my DH said, it's not much different than his teenage behvior and he didn't turn into a criminal. 17 year old boys do dumb things but that doesn't mean Trayvon wouldn't have ended up a fully productive member of society. That boy was doing absolutely nothing wrong on that night and he is now dead and I find it astounding that there are people who don't see him as the victim. His parents seem like decent people and even if they can understand why the verdict was rendered, I can only imagine they feel their son has been victimized twice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 10:13:54 GMT -5
I don't object to the verdict as there was no conclusive prove that GZ deliberately set out to kill Trayvon or that he initiated the physical confrontation. What I do find extraordinarily troubling in the discussion here is the posters who believe that GZ was in the right. I tend to believe that Trayvon threw the first punch because he was either scared or angry but I am 100% convinced that GZ is responsible for what happened that night. If he hadn't got out of his car or, most importantly, if he hadn't been carrying a gun, none of this would have happened. I also find it disgusting the way that Trayvon is being described as some hardened thug because he got into some trouble at school and smoked some weed. As my DH said, it's not much different than his teenage behvior and he didn't turn into a criminal. 17 year old boys do dumb things but that doesn't mean Trayvon wouldn't have ended up a fully productive member of society. That boy was doing absolutely nothing wrong on that night and he is now dead and I find it astounding that there are people who don't see him as the victim. His parents seem like decent people and even if they can understand why the verdict was rendered, I can only imagine they feel their son has been victimized twice. My question to you is are you 100% convinced that TM would have stopped banging Zimmerman's head into the concrete before he was dead? If you are please tell us what leads you to believe that? Oh & another question. Pretend that it was you getting your head banged on concrete. Would you have been in your "happy place" & know that you were going to be ok or would there have been a little bit of doubt in your mind as to what was going to happen?
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jul 17, 2013 10:17:51 GMT -5
Let me clarify, I am 100% convinced GZ would not have got out of the car and followed on foot, if he did not have a gun.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 10:19:01 GMT -5
defending GZ falls into a few things
1. he was "trying" to protect his community which had a rash of burglaries recently 2. he was a cop wanna be....but community watch was as close as he was ever going to get 3. he saw something he determined to be suspicious....so he wanted to check it out (this is where most people think he is completely in the wrong) 4. he started following said suspicious person while calling the non emergency police number (this is where rest of people jump in as far as GZ being in the wrong)
neither 3 or 4 are illegal activities.....people do these every day of the year all over this country ( and in a lot of circumstances these people turn into so called "heroes" for finding things that wouldnt have been found otherwise)
5. sometime after following, an altercation started.....whether or not it was started by TM or GZ no one can definitely say (but a lot of people again are blaming GZ saying he should have known better, as he was a 30 yr old man, compared to a 17 yr old kid)
6. Altercation ensues, TM is obviously kicking GZ's ass.....and GZ shoots TM (again more people think GZ should have just accepted the beating, not pulled the gun)
Have i missed any major items?
Do i think GZ was stupid...yes Do i think he made bad decisions...yes
Do i think he is guilty of murder 2 or manslaughter....no
i know i broke down the case simply.....but most of the evidence leans towards GZ's version
that is why i believe the jury made not only the right decision, but the ONLY decision they could
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 17, 2013 10:25:15 GMT -5
Let me clarify, I am 100% convinced GZ would not have got out of the car and followed on foot, if he did not have a gun. I am as well which is why to me this more of a gun issue than a race issue. I do not under any circumstances think it is OKAY that he decided to follow someone while in possession of a deadly weapon. THOSE are the circumstances that lead to TM's death.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 17, 2013 10:25:43 GMT -5
GZ had a truck and according to his re-enactment testimony passed him with the truck in the beginning. Where the truck was finally parked and where the T intersection of the sidewalk was, was very close. Mere yards. If you really believe a guy with a truck following a guy on the sidewalk can't easily keep up with him I'm not sure what to say to you. (of course the guy in the truck would be more exhausted... all that rigourous physical activity contrasted with walking to a convenience store and back...)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2013 10:33:04 GMT -5
Incorrect actually. Stupid decisions that lead to the death of an innocent person is manslaughter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 10:35:48 GMT -5
GZ had a truck and according to his re-enactment testimony passed him with the truck in the beginning. Where the truck was finally parked and where the T intersection of the sidewalk was, was very close. Mere yards. If you really believe a guy with a truck following a guy on the sidewalk can't easily keep up with him I'm not sure what to say to you. (of course the guy in the truck would be more exhausted... all that rigourous physical activity contrasted with walking to a convenience store and back...) you may want to relook at things...or maybe not GZ got out of the truck to see where TM had gone to AFTER he lost sight of him After that....they were both on foot So my original premise holds....TM could have easily outdistanced him if HE wanted to The testimony from the trainer said he would put GZ as far as in shape on a scale of 1-10 at maybe a 1.5 (does that sound in shape to you?)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 10:36:44 GMT -5
Incorrect actually. Stupid decisions that lead to the death of an innocent person is manslaughter. not when self defense is in play
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2013 10:42:08 GMT -5
How exactly do you guys ignore the Janteal testimony where she says Trayvon said I'm almost there, then she heard him say "why are you following me."? Everyone keeps saying Trayvon should have run, which according to Zimmerman and the 911 tape he did at some point. You're also saying he should have tried to talk his way out of it. According to Janteal he asks Zimmerman why he was following him before the sounds of a scuffle break out. None of that matches up with Zimmerman's account that he was walking back to his truck when Martin attacked him out of the blue. The fight and shooting didn't take place next to the spot where Zimmerman says he parked the truck either.
There's no eye witness that saw the fight break out, and none of the circumstantial evidence points to it starting the way Zimmerman said it did, but you're all willing to believe him anyway.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2013 10:45:35 GMT -5
Bullshit. Listen to the god damn 911 tape. He clearly tells the dispatcher "he's running" then you can hear him get out of the truck and you can hear the wind as he pursues him. You sort of have to be able to see somebody to tell dispatch what they're doing. This might come as a shock to you, but I'm pretty sure tape recordings don't lie. Don't have the motive to do so even if they were capable. The tape doesn't match Zimmerman's account of what happened, so either the recording is lying or Zimmerman is. I know which one I'd put my money on.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 17, 2013 10:55:17 GMT -5
I don't know if I'm one of the certain people you are talking about. But if I am let me say that I don't think either actions are more justifiable than the others. I think both people reactions make sense take in context of the choices they made at that exact moment, not taking the outcome into consideration, because when they made their choices they did not know what would happen. I do think there are holes, or oddities in GZ's story, but I don't know if those are on purpose or if they are because of the limits of the human memory. The one thing I do believe, is that TM at some point either stopped and let GZ catch up to him to confront him, or did turn around. I'm thinking the first is the more likely, but I do not believe that TM kept heading straight home. Again stopping and confronting GZ, with words is something I most likely would have done too. (and no they don't have to be nice meek words, "what the fuck you are doing man," may not be the word choice I would have picked but would have been justifiable. Refusing to answer GZ and keep walking would have been justifiable. The end of justifiable comes with the person who assaulted the other. Do I find it plausible that GZ started it by grabbing TM, sure in that case he got away with it. But I also find it plausible that TM did punch GZ first and than jumped on top of him and it was self defense. What I can not understand is how people can not find the second one plausible too. I also have a problem with the mix signals we send. We use the concept of the end justifies the means a lot in society, it seems to me. We need to figure out what means are acceptable or not. I think we need to have an open discussion about race, because I don't know if race played an issue in this case or not. And if it did, how much of that was conscious and how much of it was unconscious. But there are certainly those who do, and certainly those who do not. Which tells me there is at least still a misunderstanding in today world on how we each feel. There are certainly times when race is an issue, there are times when it is not. How do we define those times, and when is it acceptable to use race as a reason? And don't come back with it is never acceptable to use race as a defining factor, because you are just thinking about this case, because I will come back with there are groups out there that define membership by race, scholarships ect... And if you come back with but that is differnt because those are good things, I will go back to we are again using the means to justify the end. It is okay to use race when it is a good ending, but not a bad ending. And who is to decided what is a good and bad ending? As for the holes in GZ story, here is a fun experiment, after something stressful happens to you, doesn't have to be a high stress, write a narrative down about it. Wait some time and then write another narrative, compare the two. You are going to have differences, and they not just going to be little. www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2012/09/your-memory-is-like-the-telephone-game.html
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 17, 2013 10:57:52 GMT -5
How exactly do you guys ignore the Janteal testimony where she says Trayvon said I'm almost there, then she heard him say "why are you following me."? Everyone keeps saying Trayvon should have run, which according to Zimmerman and the 911 tape he did at some point. You're also saying he should have tried to talk his way out of it. According to Janteal he asks Zimmerman why he was following him before the sounds of a scuffle break out. None of that matches up with Zimmerman's account that he was walking back to his truck when Martin attacked him out of the blue. The fight and shooting didn't take place next to the spot where Zimmerman says he parked the truck either. There's no eye witness that saw the fight break out, and none of the circumstantial evidence points to it starting the way Zimmerman said it did, but you're all willing to believe him anyway. They ignore it because they WANT to ignore it. All anyone cares about is the fact that Zimmerman's head hit the concrete. Don't you know that is all the evidence that is needed to support everything Zimmerman says. He MUST be telling the truth because he had scratches on his head and a broken nose.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2013 11:03:57 GMT -5
Zimmerman says he was following him in the vehicle, then passed him, and parked in front of where he was heading. Trayvon didn't let anyone catch up, he was pretty much screwed from the get go on the getting away front since the guy following him had wheels and Trayvon was on foot. Don't let the facts get in your way though, keep on believing the guy who's version of the events leading up to the altercation you readily admit has holes in his story and things that definitely don't match up to the recorded evidence.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 11:16:46 GMT -5
How exactly do you guys ignore the Janteal testimony where she says Trayvon said I'm almost there, then she heard him say "why are you following me."? Everyone keeps saying Trayvon should have run, which according to Zimmerman and the 911 tape he did at some point. You're also saying he should have tried to talk his way out of it. According to Janteal he asks Zimmerman why he was following him before the sounds of a scuffle break out. None of that matches up with Zimmerman's account that he was walking back to his truck when Martin attacked him out of the blue. The fight and shooting didn't take place next to the spot where Zimmerman says he parked the truck either. There's no eye witness that saw the fight break out, and none of the circumstantial evidence points to it starting the way Zimmerman said it did, but you're all willing to believe him anyway. Is there any concrete evidence showing that GZ jumped him or in any way instigated the physical altercation? (Honest question, I don't know the answer.) As I said before, I don't want to put someone in jail because you think they are lying but can't prove it happened another way. If that means someone goes free, I'm ok with that.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 17, 2013 11:19:57 GMT -5
I always wonder why Zimmerman had grass on himself along with wet shoes. I also wonder if blood was detected on the sidewalk.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 17, 2013 11:20:45 GMT -5
I don't know if I'm one of the certain people you are talking about. But if I am let me say that I don't think either actions are more justifiable than the others. I think both people reactions make sense take in context of the choices they made at that exact moment, not taking the outcome into consideration, because when they made their choices they did not know what would happen. I do think there are holes, or oddities in GZ's story, but I don't know if those are on purpose or if they are because of the limits of the human memory. The one thing I do believe, is that TM at some point either stopped and let GZ catch up to him to confront him, or did turn around. I'm thinking the first is the more likely, but I do not believe that TM kept heading straight home. Again stopping and confronting GZ, with words is something I most likely would have done too. (and no they don't have to be nice meek words, "what the fuck you are doing man," may not be the word choice I would have picked but would have been justifiable. Refusing to answer GZ and keep walking would have been justifiable. The end of justifiable comes with the person who assaulted the other. Do I find it plausible that GZ started it by grabbing TM, sure in that case he got away with it. But I also find it plausible that TM did punch GZ first and than jumped on top of him and it was self defense. What I can not understand is how people can not find the second one plausible too. I also have a problem with the mix signals we send. We use the concept of the end justifies the means a lot in society, it seems to me. We need to figure out what means are acceptable or not. I think we need to have an open discussion about race, because I don't know if race played an issue in this case or not. And if it did, how much of that was conscious and how much of it was unconscious. But there are certainly those who do, and certainly those who do not. Which tells me there is at least still a misunderstanding in today world on how we each feel. There are certainly times when race is an issue, there are times when it is not. How do we define those times, and when is it acceptable to use race as a reason? And don't come back with it is never acceptable to use race as a defining factor, because you are just thinking about this case, because I will come back with there are groups out there that define membership by race, scholarships ect... And if you come back with but that is differnt because those are good things, I will go back to we are again using the means to justify the end. It is okay to use race when it is a good ending, but not a bad ending. And who is to decided what is a good and bad ending? As for the holes in GZ story, here is a fun experiment, after something stressful happens to you, doesn't have to be a high stress, write a narrative down about it. Wait some time and then write another narrative, compare the two. You are going to have differences, and they not just going to be little. www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2012/09/your-memory-is-like-the-telephone-game.htmlActually you are not one of the people I was referring to and I do think you make some good points... one being that it IS possible TM put his hands on GZ first. That is the reason why I believe the jury had to go with not guilty. I also do not think this falls anywhere remotely close to that of a hate crime and I believe it is absolutely ridiculous to put it in that category. I also think the prosecution should never have put murder on the table. I am on the fence about manslaughter. I could easily have convicted him of involuntary manslaughter because the 911 tape says a lot to me and I believe his actions set off a chain off events which caused TM's death that night.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2013 11:28:18 GMT -5
Isn't all manslaughter involuntary? When you intend to kill somebody it's murder not manslaughter, no?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 17, 2013 11:36:22 GMT -5
Given Trayvon was not found nor photographed slumped with his head on the sidewalk it is reasonable to believe all of both of them were on the ground fully at the time GZ decided to fire. Even GZ said he wriggled, squirmed, etc. to get away from the sidewalk so the sidewalk wasn't in play IMHO at that time.
It is unfortunate that the police didn't do much evidence collection because of the SYG law. Even though it was misting, my guess is the sidewalk could have been tested for traces of blood and it would let us know if it appeared to be a roll across the sidewalk, a pattern suggesting more than one slam, etc.
Given where he was located in death, I think he would have had to move the fight to the sidewalk again before he could bang his head into the concrete. So since I believe TM was not banging Z's head on the concrete when he was shot, I'd have to argue he was planning to move back to the sidewalk to do so. I can't prove that, can you?
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 17, 2013 11:37:01 GMT -5
Incorrect actually, there is more to it than that. The stupid decision has to be one that a reasonable person would not make, and/or ordinary caution was not used.
Nope there are two manslaughter, voluntary and involuntary.
I covered both of all ready in an early post, we even discussed what "ordinary caution" was. Tells me you not reading my whole post, just skimming.... in your defense I do tend to be wordy.
I'm not sure, even without a gun I think Zimmerman may have followed Travon.
I don't believe he portrayed a fully factual account of the situation without bias. I don't think that would even be possible. I do not ever believe anyone of telling the whole, and only truth because I do not believe our brains can. Video tape a situation, ask someone who was there to tell what happened and there will be inconsistency with the video. Doesn't mean they are trying to pull one over on you, it means are brains process information as snippets, and then fill in the rest when we re-tell something. Put several people in a stressful situation, and ask them to recount it. You are going to get a ton of difference answers. And what I have said, that I think the self defense claim is plausible. I can see how GZ deciding to act on something suspicious, is not out of the ordinary for our society. I can see how other reasonable people would make the same choice in the same position.
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Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2013 11:40:31 GMT -5
Like following a young black male after dark on your own after being told that it wasn't necessary from 911 dispatch? Getting out of your vehicle to chase them down on foot after telling the dispatcher that they were running? Getting close enough to the suspect to be hit without identifying yourself in any way? Things like that?
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