Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 14:21:22 GMT -5
And the other expert said that the injuries were consistent with his head hitting the ground once and were not serious or life threatening. I've been a juror. You can't take every bit of testimony at face value because there's invariably some testimony that conflicts. You're given the snippet of legal code that pertains to the case and told to base your decision on the testimony that you feel is true and correct and can ignore testimony that you felt was a lie, or embellished.
Our case was way different in that it was a he said she said thing where we had both sides giving their version of what happened. If you have to base your decision entirely on the testimony he was both definitely guilty and definitely not guilty. Clearly you have to make a judgment call based on the totality of the testimony.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 14:29:05 GMT -5
That story had a good ending, as the teens got close enough, they saw that there suspicion were correct and identified the girl in the car, the drive also stopped and shoved the girl out of the car, the teens stopped following and tended to the girl. They are being called heroes and commended for their actions of identifying someone they thought was suspicious and following them.
As a society we are using an, ends justifies the means, model. If the ending is good, we will celebrate the same actions that we will condemn if the ending is bad. We need to decided what actions are acceptable and what actions are not, based on the actions themselves.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 14:31:25 GMT -5
Yet the expert witness said: "Slammed Zimmerman's head into a concrete walkway AFTER knocking him to the ground with a punch that broke his nose." Most of what you seem to be posting is conjecture and incorrect compared to what jurors were told and what evidence suggested. That doesn't fly in a courtroom. Edit - For the record I'm not defending or supporting how this happened as I think it could have completely been avoided. As I said earlier in this thread I had the joy of sitting on a case that was nothing big but the judge and prosecuter made it clear that you don't speculate. Add in how much the media twists things and it makes this whole thing even sadder. I think the jury did the best they could with what they had to work with. The biggest piece of evidence; however, that would have me questioning Zimmerman's story is the 911 call. The call and what Zimmerman says happened just doesn't jive well. His whole story doesn't sit well with me but since dead men tell no tales we will never hear any other side besides that of Zimmerman.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 14:32:32 GMT -5
Agreed and I think an armed guy chasing down and confronting somebody that they think "looks suspicious" is crazy and should end with the guy doing the chasing and shooting behind bars if he assaults or kills said suspicious person.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 14:34:41 GMT -5
Exactly, and you know the 911 tape isn't lying, so that leaves you having to question Zimmerman's account of what happened. I didn't hear the entire case, but from what I have heard I would have probably found him guilty on the manslaughter charges. Murder just isn't there.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 16, 2013 14:40:21 GMT -5
Of course you can't take everything you hear as the absolute truth but the jurors who sat in the box and heard everything believed the testimony that supported Zimmerman's life being in danger. There was a witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman before the gun was fired which further supports the expert witness who testified that the wounds to the back of the head were from being slammed into the ground. The fact that the prosecution went for the wrong charge aside I'm going to side with the 12 people in the box who thought Martin's life was in danger and not internet conjecture.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 14:45:45 GMT -5
I think an armed guy chasing down and confronting somebody that they think "looks suspicious" is crazy and should end with the guy doing the chasing and shooting behind bars if he assaults and kills said suspicious person.
Change it to that, and I can agree with you. However, if he follows the person and is than assaulted by the person then I agree he has a right to defend himself. So for me it comes down to who assaulted who first. I don't considered being followed assault. No way of telling, and there is the reasonable doubt.
And for the record I think the teens did the right thing with following the car. See at least I am constant.
I'm sure Tina will come back with something along the lines, of if those had been her kids they would be afraid to come home. She is pretty constant too.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2013 14:48:13 GMT -5
I'm going to side with the 12 people in the box who thought Martin's life was in danger and not internet conjecture.
Some YM-er you are.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 14:50:54 GMT -5
In Florida it's only 6 people in the box, and they've publicly said that when deliberations began 3 of the 6 felt he was guilty of manslaughter. Apparently none felt he was guilty of murder, which I agree the evidence doesn't support at all, but they split evenly on the manslaughter charge. If the prosecution had only gone for manslaughter charges they might have gotten a conviction.
If even one of the 3 who felt he was guilty of manslaughter had refused to change to not guilty they would have had a hung jury on the manslaughter charge and I believe a new trial, but I'm not an expert in Florida law by any stretch of the imagination. Shit, I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn in ages.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 15:17:17 GMT -5
Zimmerman's defense rested on his own emotions - what he felt. There is plenty of studies and evidence to show that he mostly likely felt more fearful for his life on an unconscious level because Trayvon Martin was a black male than if Trayvon Martin was white. According to the link I posted interracial interactions can start off with more anxiety for both sides, less eye contact, even less friendly dialogue. So you can take two guys who are already anxious - Zimmerman because of the break ins, Martin because some strange guy is following him in the evening, they have some sort of interaction that makes them both more anxious, a physical confrontation, and the one without a gun is dead. It's going to feel really racial when you know that many white people are unjustly fearful of black males and their criminality due to tv, news, and unfairly applied school and criminal laws and that Zimmerman was freed because he said he was afraid. The implication is that it's okay to follow someone and then kill them if you are afraid of them - something that will disproportionately affect black males due to implicit racism. There was simply no way for Martin to win in this confrontation and maintain his self-respect. What was he supposed to do? He saw someone follow him and kept walking, at least for a little while. If he ran away that would have made him look like a criminal. There's no guarantee that Zimmerman wouldn't have followed. Was he supposed to call the police himself? We already know there's a lot of unfairness in the way the police treat black and white suspects. That probably didn't seem like an option. At some point Martin and Zimmerman exchanged a few words, maybe. This is EXACTLY the kind of crap that I think we need to stop. Studies to tell us what one stupid guy was feeling?? So, bc STUDIES have told us that he is a racist he must be ? SELF-RESPECT If some stranger was following me, I would be running, calling 911 and peeing my pants all at the same time. The VERY VERY LAST thing I would be worried about is self-respect.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 15:20:20 GMT -5
In Florida it's only 6 people in the box, and they've publicly said that when deliberations began 3 of the 6 felt he was guilty of manslaughter. Apparently none felt he was guilty of murder, which I agree the evidence doesn't support at all, but they split evenly on the manslaughter charge. If the prosecution had only gone for manslaughter charges they might have gotten a conviction. If even one of the 3 who felt he was guilty of manslaughter had refused to change to not guilty they would have had a hung jury on the manslaughter charge and I believe a new trial, but I'm not an expert in Florida law by any stretch of the imagination. Shit, I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn in ages. I've been on 2 juries now. We always had a split first vote. Then the debate over evidence begins and they start looking over the evidence. This is the point where minds change and one side or the other find they heard something wrong or, in a long trial, just forgot the very specific details on an important point. I once was the lone hold out not because I didn't agree with the other members, but because I felt some where making their decisions for the wrong reasons.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 15:23:37 GMT -5
Getting out of his car isn't what led to the confrontation. Chasing down an unarmed teenager because he didn't like the way he looked is what led to a confrontation. If he'd just gotten out of his car, stayed on the phone with 911, and stayed away from Trayvon nothing would have happened. The jurors who were leaning manslaughter at the start of the deliberation said it was the whole chain of decisions Zimmerman made that led to the confrontation. Whether you think he's guilty of anything or not, you have to admit there was more than one stupid decision on his part prior to finding himself on the ground with Trayvon on top of him.And now it's twice that I agreed with Dark...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 15:25:22 GMT -5
it is amazing what preconceptions jurors bring into the room with them
i was on a case last year....and as soon as we got into the room, a woman wanted to know why no one from CSI testified.....
it was a simple burglary charge....
we were in and out in less than an hour
fairly open and shut case....
but the "CSI" woman was the lone holdout wanting more evidence expecting it to be like a tv show
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2013 15:39:30 GMT -5
He had his head smashed into the ground more than once whether the result looked wimpy or not. Had that continued to happen he might have been the one who ended up dead. Again as far as chasing Martin, his account to the cops stated that Martin confronted him after he hung up the phone. He told them Martin came from the left rear of his car and attacked him. Is it true? He's the only one left alive that knows but anything else is pure conjecture. Which of the three accounts is this from? The first night's talk with the police, the re-enactment the following day, or the last talk with the police? As usual PB quotes are erratic for me so, "He told them Martin came from the left rear of his car and attacked him. Is it true?" Ask yourself, if it is true how did they end where they were when TM was killed? And if supposedly, TM attacked him earlier while he was in his vehicle, how was that missed by the dispatcher? Because of limited time and horsepower on my laptop I only watched the video re-enactment and have not read the others in their entirety yet. Still, I think the story he punched him to the ground is likely false. According to what GZ said he managed to worm his way so the fight wasn't on top of the sidewalk. Otherwise we should have had a pic of TM slumped over with his head on the pavement, but we did not. I think the contact with the sidewalk was probably the first thing that happened and perhaps when TM broke his nose possibly while sitting on him prompted GZ to go for the gun. I still find it extremely odd that there are *NO, zero, zippo, nada, none* defensive injuries that GZ incurred. Most people would have been using their hands to prevent the other person from hitting them and yet I have a feeling GZ decided to use the gun almost immediately because it was there.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 15:46:19 GMT -5
it is amazing what preconceptions jurors bring into the room with them i was on a case last year.... and as soon as we got into the room, a woman wanted to know why no one from CSI testified.....it was a simple burglary charge.... we were in and out in less than an hour fairly open and shut case.... but the "CSI" woman was the lone holdout wanting more evidence expecting it to be like a tv show
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 15:49:24 GMT -5
it is amazing what preconceptions jurors bring into the room with them i was on a case last year....and as soon as we got into the room, a woman wanted to know why no one from CSI testified..... it was a simple burglary charge.... we were in and out in less than an hour fairly open and shut case.... but the "CSI" woman was the lone holdout wanting more evidence expecting it to be like a tv show Did you ever find out why the CSI woman didn't show? did she ignore the subpoena or something?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2013 15:51:03 GMT -5
Zimmerman's defense rested on his own emotions - what he felt. There is plenty of studies and evidence to show that he mostly likely felt more fearful for his life on an unconscious level because Trayvon Martin was a black male than if Trayvon Martin was white. According to the link I posted interracial interactions can start off with more anxiety for both sides, less eye contact, even less friendly dialogue. So you can take two guys who are already anxious - Zimmerman because of the break ins, Martin because some strange guy is following him in the evening, they have some sort of interaction that makes them both more anxious, a physical confrontation, and the one without a gun is dead. It's going to feel really racial when you know that many white people are unjustly fearful of black males and their criminality due to tv, news, and unfairly applied school and criminal laws and that Zimmerman was freed because he said he was afraid. The implication is that it's okay to follow someone and then kill them if you are afraid of them - something that will disproportionately affect black males due to implicit racism. There was simply no way for Martin to win in this confrontation and maintain his self-respect. What was he supposed to do? He saw someone follow him and kept walking, at least for a little while. If he ran away that would have made him look like a criminal. There's no guarantee that Zimmerman wouldn't have followed. Was he supposed to call the police himself? We already know there's a lot of unfairness in the way the police treat black and white suspects. That probably didn't seem like an option. At some point Martin and Zimmerman exchanged a few words, maybe. This is EXACTLY the kind of crap that I think we need to stop. Studies to tell us what one stupid guy was feeling?? So, bc STUDIES have told us that he is a racist he must be ? SELF-RESPECT If some stranger was following me, I would be running, calling 911 and peeing my pants all at the same time. The VERY VERY LAST thing I would be worried about is self-respect. Yes, but that's what you, a woman would do. Self respect is pretty important to some people, many of them male. Loss of face has scuttled more than one business deal in Asia for example, so even they undestand your reaction isn't the norm. Bottom line I think TM had far fewer tools at his disposal to evade GZ or even make this situation stop at words. Realize since his stalker started trailing him inside the complex he's probably figured out the guy lives there and knows it better than he does. I wouldn't run unless I was sure I could get away. But that's just me. If you are going to run and call 911, I'd call first. You can always throw your phone at the guy while connected to dispatch as a ruse to run clear of the guy. He lives there though. No guarantee he's not going to be waiting for you the next time you step out the door... <Cue horror music sound track>
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 15:52:03 GMT -5
Even if you had every right to be there? Even if the person following you was a female your size? Even if you were close to home?
Because apparently as soon Martin hit back he deserved to die, he should run because he's a kid but if he ran he would have looked like a criminal, he's intimidating because he's a tall adult, etc. Apparently the only acceptable response was to stand still and let Zimmerman do whatever he wanted.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 16, 2013 15:59:23 GMT -5
No, an acceptable response would have been to ask what Zimmerman wanted. Plus, be out in the light anyway and not skulking around homes that aren't well lit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:02:41 GMT -5
So basically if I understand correctly: it is Martin's fault he got shot and he deserved what he got.
Lesson learned!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:10:57 GMT -5
Even if you had every right to be there? Even if the person following you was a female your size? Even if you were close to home? Because apparently as soon Martin hit back he deserved to die, he should run because he's a kid but if he ran he would have looked like a criminal, he's intimidating because he's a tall adult, etc. Apparently the only acceptable response was to stand still and let Zimmerman do whatever he wanted. how about walk home...he was close do you believe GZ would try and detain him? GZ had already called cops...he would have pointed out house....dont you think? or call 911....and tell cops you are being followed by a "creepy ass cracker" and then continue walking home how about anything other than ASSAULTING the guy following you....
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 16:11:28 GMT -5
So basically if I understand correctly: it is Martin's fault he got shot and he deserved what he got. Lesson learned! And we should all be packing heat and deciding who is and isn't suspicious.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 16:16:37 GMT -5
Even if you had every right to be there? Even if the person following you was a female your size? Even if you were close to home? Because apparently as soon Martin hit back he deserved to die, he should run because he's a kid but if he ran he would have looked like a criminal, he's intimidating because he's a tall adult, etc. Apparently the only acceptable response was to stand still and let Zimmerman do whatever he wanted. how about walk home...he was close do you believe GZ would try and detain him? GZ had already called cops...he would have pointed out house....dont you think? or call 911....and tell cops you are being followed by a "creepy ass cracker" and then continue walking home how about anything other than ASSAULTING the guy following you.... But how do we know it didn't go down something like this... GZ takes a swing at TM and misses. TM in return punches GZ in the nose. GZ tackles TM taking him down on the ground. TM in return rolls GZ over and just gets the better of him. I understand the jury's decision. I really get why they came back with not guilty, but I have a problem with everyone blaming TM and acting like he got what he deserves when we really have absolutely no idea if GZ's story is truthful or not. In the 911 call it sounds like GZ runs after TM. I really don't know what happened other than they both made poor decisions that day and someone ended with a dead child.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 16, 2013 16:22:54 GMT -5
Still there are posters trying to make it about race just like some people out there. OJ got off because of his race, no more, no less, but that's okay because he was a "brother?" Thank GOD stupid Zimmerman was Hispanic so the race card couldn't be used against him, although it certainly was tried.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 16, 2013 16:23:47 GMT -5
So basically if I understand correctly: it is Martin's fault he got shot and he deserved what he got. Lesson learned! Yeah, cawiau, don't you know that according to Juror B37 you are a "boy of color" and should know your place?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 16, 2013 16:25:18 GMT -5
Where did juror B37 say that?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 16:27:02 GMT -5
So basically if I understand correctly: it is Martin's fault he got shot and he deserved what he got. Lesson learned! Yeah, cawiau, don't you know that according to Juror B37 you are a "boy of color" and should know your place? Holy crap! It that for real
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 16, 2013 16:27:17 GMT -5
Where did juror B37 say that? "Boy of color" was stated verbally (in the Anderson interview). "Know your place" was heavily implied ("It was unfortunate he was there at that time").
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 16:28:12 GMT -5
Even if you had every right to be there? Even if the person following you was a female your size? Even if you were close to home?Because apparently as soon Martin hit back he deserved to die, he should run because he's a kid but if he ran he would have looked like a criminal, he's intimidating because he's a tall adult, etc. Apparently the only acceptable response was to stand still and let Zimmerman do whatever he wanted. Yes, yes and yes. People are CRAZY, people are psychotic and people have GUNS. I had a scar on my right hand from a girl who went coo-coo on me bc I was dating a guy she liked. We were 12 or 13 - can we say crazy ?? If I am being followed by a stranger, male, female, twice my size, half my size, black, white, nun - I don't care - I am running first (while probably peeing my pants), calling 911 second and asking questions later.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 16:32:28 GMT -5
This is EXACTLY the kind of crap that I think we need to stop. Studies to tell us what one stupid guy was feeling?? So, bc STUDIES have told us that he is a racist he must be ? SELF-RESPECT If some stranger was following me, I would be running, calling 911 and peeing my pants all at the same time. The VERY VERY LAST thing I would be worried about is self-respect. Yes, but that's what you, a woman would do. Self respect is pretty important to some people, many of them male. Loss of face has scuttled more than one business deal in Asia for example, so even they undestand your reaction isn't the norm. I wouldn't run unless I was sure I could get away. But that's just me. If you are going to run and call 911, I'd call first. You can always throw your phone at the guy while connected to dispatch as a ruse to run clear of the guy. He lives there though. No guarantee he's not going to be waiting for you the next time you step out the door... <Cue horror music sound track> Well, I am not a male, but self-respect is pretty important to me too. You know what else is important to me ? My life. And just so I understand - are you comparing asian business deals with getting away from a stranger who is following you ??
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