Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 12:39:08 GMT -5
Actually that does make him guilty of manslaughter. If you're directly responsible for a preventable death that only happened because of poor choices you made it's manslaughter, which doesn't require that you actively sought or planned to take a life, or that you had ill will towards the deceased. It's what Zimmerman should have been facing the whole time, since murder charges were never going to stick.
According to one of the jurors, when deliberations began 3 of the 6 women felt he was guilty of manslaughter even though most of the trial was stupidly focused on trying to get him for murder. If the prosecutor hadn't over-reached and charged him with manslaughter from the get go they would have had a pretty good chance of a conviction.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 16, 2013 12:40:32 GMT -5
Teens are taught not to run. It makes them look like a criminal. Just think back to watching a Law and Order show. What does it mean when the perp runs? In this case Zimmerman probably would have chased him. I'm not saying there is a right answer. that is the problem. There was nothing he could have done to stop Zimmerman from coming after him. If he was thinking with the front side of his brain he would have stayed in the car like the police told him to. Now that martin is dead he can't tell his side of the story, so everything we have heard is what Zimmerman wanted us to. Zimmerman started the whole chain of events that ended with him killing someone, but some how everyone is trying to figure out to what extent it is the victim's fault Zimmerman killed him. I've never taught my kids to run from someone. This man was not a cop and according to many on here, he never even identified himself as a cop. What parent in their right mind would teach a kid not to run from a random stranger who was stalking them? A police officer is one thing, a random "creepy as cracker" and the smart thing to do is run, scream and call the cops Oops...I meant I've always taught my kids to run...not never!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 12:45:24 GMT -5
My feelings on a couple of points:
1. Police issue. Well it depends on YOUR police. Sorry but response times are totally different. I've been places where a mugging wouldn't have gotten a quick response time because there were a lot of murders ahead of you. I think most places with any sort of crime would have ranked "someone just walking around" to be near the bottom for a response. With 8 prior break in's & how quickly the police got there after the call (& after a shooting) I think that we could guess what the response time was. Understand I'm not blaming them, there is just no way to predict what will happen on any given night.
2. Race & profiling. I think this country has gone insane with that issue. Take the border that I live closest to for example. You could say that you are "profiling" if you check shorter, dark skin, dark haired people coming across the border. To not profile you would have to check an equal number of tall, light skinned, light haired people. (This is Mexico btw). Well guess what? I doubt that 1 out of a million drug smugglers coming across THAT border are light skinned blonds.
There was a story a while back where some city (or town) was trying to pass a measure saying that they couldn't describe a person suspected of a crime by color (black male for example). My question is at what point do we say get your head out? Are we going to call it a progress to equality if an short, old, Oriental, in a wheel chair that robs a bank can never be caught because saying she is short might offend midgets, saying she is old offends a group, saying she is Oriental is profiling, & of course saying that she is in a wheel chair offends someone else?
We have gone to insane lengths to be "fair".
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 16, 2013 12:49:16 GMT -5
My feelings on a couple of points: 1. Police issue. Well it depends on YOUR police. Sorry but response times are totally different. I've been places where a mugging wouldn't have gotten a quick response time because there were a lot of murders ahead of you. I think most places with any sort of crime would have ranked "someone just walking around" to be near the bottom for a response. With 8 prior break in's & how quickly the police got there after the call (& after a shooting) I think that we could guess what the response time was. Understand I'm not blaming them, there is just no way to predict what will happen on any given night. 2. Race & profiling. I think this country has gone insane with that issue. Take the border that I live closest to for example. You could say that you are "profiling" if you check shorter, dark skin, dark haired people coming across the border. To not profile you would have to check an equal number of tall, light skinned, light haired people. (This is Mexico btw). Well guess what? I doubt that 1 out of a million drug smugglers coming across THAT border are light skinned blonds. There was a story a while back where some city (or town) was trying to pass a measure saying that they couldn't describe a person suspected of a crime by color (black male for example). My question is at what point do we say get your head out? Are we going to call it a progress to equality if an short, old, Oriental, in a wheel chair that robs a bank can never be caught because saying she is short might offend midgets, saying she is old offends a group, saying she is Oriental is profiling, & of course saying that she is in a wheel chair offends someone else? We have gone to insane lengths to be "fair". Our local newspaper will no longer say the race of suspects....just the age and sex. So freaking ridiculous. It is t racism if you have creaking eyewitnesses who describe the suspects as black!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 12:52:52 GMT -5
My feelings on a couple of points: 1. Police issue. Well it depends on YOUR police. Sorry but response times are totally different. I've been places where a mugging wouldn't have gotten a quick response time because there were a lot of murders ahead of you. I think most places with any sort of crime would have ranked "someone just walking around" to be near the bottom for a response. With 8 prior break in's & how quickly the police got there after the call (& after a shooting) I think that we could guess what the response time was. Understand I'm not blaming them, there is just no way to predict what will happen on any given night. 2. Race & profiling. I think this country has gone insane with that issue. Take the border that I live closest to for example. You could say that you are "profiling" if you check shorter, dark skin, dark haired people coming across the border. To not profile you would have to check an equal number of tall, light skinned, light haired people. (This is Mexico btw). Well guess what? I doubt that 1 out of a million drug smugglers coming across THAT border are light skinned blonds. There was a story a while back where some city (or town) was trying to pass a measure saying that they couldn't describe a person suspected of a crime by color (black male for example). My question is at what point do we say get your head out? Are we going to call it a progress to equality if an short, old, Oriental, in a wheel chair that robs a bank can never be caught because saying she is short might offend midgets, saying she is old offends a group, saying she is Oriental is profiling, & of course saying that she is in a wheel chair offends someone else? We have gone to insane lengths to be "fair". Our local newspaper will no longer say the race of suspects....just the age and sex. So freaking ridiculous. It is t racism if you have creaking eyewitnesses who describe the suspects as black! That's just crazy. It's not racism, it's a fact. Just like brown or blonde or red hair or blue eyes.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2013 12:53:46 GMT -5
It's Asian, not Oriential. I get why he was suspicious of Martin, I do. What I don't agree with and never will is him deciding to take it upon himself to follow Martin and confront him. I know many many posters disagree with me but I don't find property worth getting myself into a situation I can't get out of, especially other people's property. Zimmerman thought he was doing the right thing and being a hero. He instead got himself into a situation that escalated to where he felt the need to shoot someone. The whole thing could have been avoided if he hadn't decided to play cop. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Is Martin totally innocent? No, he made bad decisions too but since he's now buried six feet under I don't see what purpose it serves to nitpick, he paid for his decisions in the worst way. Zimmerman should be answerable for his actions/choices and since he's alive it's up to the justice system.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 16, 2013 13:01:25 GMT -5
Wow what? He crossed the line of criminality by striking physical blows. Really? How do we know that? Because that's what Zimmerman said? LOL Everybody in Florida with homicidal tendencies knows how to get their story straight now. BECAUSE Trayvon had NO other PHYSICAL injuries indicative of an assault whereas GZ had a broken nose and bleeding head. It is what it IS.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 16, 2013 13:01:51 GMT -5
It's Asian, not Oriential. I get why he was suspicious of Martin, I do. What I don't agree with and never will is him deciding to take it upon himself to follow Martin and confront him. I know many many posters disagree with me but I don't find property worth getting myself into a situation I can't get out of, especially other people's property. Zimmerman thought he was doing the right thing and being a hero. He instead got himself into a situation that escalated to where he felt the need to shoot someone. The whole thing could have been avoided if he hadn't decided to play cop. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Is Martin totally innocent? No, he made bad decisions too but since he's now buried six feet under I don't see what purpose it serves to nitpick, he paid for his decisions in the worst way. Zimmerman should be answerable for his actions/choices and since he's alive it's up to the justice system. Pft, maybe oriental ranks up there with cracker as no big deal....if not, I can't wait to hear why not :-p (Yes mm hmmm I know how you feel....I'm talking to the other posters and one other mod who don't think cracker is a big deal)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 13:06:50 GMT -5
Grabbing or pushing somebody doesn't leave marks. Why was Zimmerman close enough to "the suspect" to even be touched? He told the 911 dispatcher that "those people always get away" and said "he's running" before chasing after him. You honestly believe he didn't touch Trayvon after chasing him? Really? If he was going to let him get away why would he chase him in the first place?
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 16, 2013 13:09:43 GMT -5
It's Asian, not Oriential. I get why he was suspicious of Martin, I do. What I don't agree with and never will is him deciding to take it upon himself to follow Martin and confront him. I know many many posters disagree with me but I don't find property worth getting myself into a situation I can't get out of, especially other people's property. Zimmerman thought he was doing the right thing and being a hero. He instead got himself into a situation that escalated to where he felt the need to shoot someone. The whole thing could have been avoided if he hadn't decided to play cop. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Is Martin totally innocent? No, he made bad decisions too but since he's now buried six feet under I don't see what purpose it serves to nitpick, he paid for his decisions in the worst way. Zimmerman should be answerable for his actions/choices and since he's alive it's up to the justice system. They both could have handled it differently. They both feared for their lives at some point when their paths crossed. However, had one stayed in his car or listened to the dispatcher, and had the other one called 911 or ran home this would not have happened. But it did and the entire thing was mishandled from the get-go. With the combination of one being an adult and having a loaded weapon and one being young (considered a child if under 18 years old) without a loaded weapon who could only use his strength and fists it still seems unfair to me, regardless of race, color or creed, that the adult instigated the altercations in some capacity and had the courage to do so only because he knew he had a loaded gun. People voted about 5 years ago to have that castle doctrine law expanded into what we call stand your ground. They wanted it expanded because you could only shoot at someone who you (in your mind) feared if they were actually IN your house. So there were cases where people were being threatened outside their homes - like in their cars, etc. If GZ hadn't had a loaded gun TM probably would have faced charges. Who knows? But I would bet every penny I have that he would have allowed the police to handle it and would have stayed in his vehicle with door locked had he not had that weapon on him. And TM would have just gone home with his purchases. My concerns are that now more people will think it's a good idea to have guns which will also give them the courage to bother people who don't really need to be bothered and will think it's ok to shoot whomever they want when the tables turn instead of allowing the police to do their jobs. I'm not talking about people who are really being threatened. I'm talking about the people who think they are the law or know how it should be because of (fill in the blank). I don't care what the intended laws are made for because no matter how many laws are made something will happen to circumvent the original intention.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 16, 2013 13:19:03 GMT -5
Pft, maybe oriental ranks up there with cracker as no big deal....if not, I can't wait to hear why not :-p (Yes mm hmmm I know how you feel....I'm talking to the other posters and one other mod who don't think cracker is a big deal) I remember your hand getting slapped for saying "white trash"... maybe that's more offensive than cracker? Lol! I forgot about that....
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 13:22:23 GMT -5
Not always. There are times that people do stupid things, that result in the death of someone that does include manslaughter. How many people do you think die in a car accidents where no charges are pressed. Somewhere along the line of events someone made a choice that caused that death. Yea there are times when people make a choice where the outcome of someone being killed is likely, like drinking and driving and charges are pressed. But there are other times where people die in accidents, because of stupid choices someone made, but it still isn't manslaughter. Acting in self defense makes it justifiable and excusable. GZ leaving his car was stupid, yes it was part of the events that lead up to the situation that caused the death, but indirectly. There are many other ways that situation could have ended if things had handled differnt by either. Him leaving his car was not enough to make him shoot, him following TM was not enough to make him fire his gun. The question came down to what made him fire his gun. TM on top of him beating him is what made him fire his gun. You may be able to convince me of involuntary manslaughter,
although I think acting in self defense may even make this one excusable, also I don't think one was even on the table for the jury to consider.
ETA--- legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/manslaughter
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 13:26:55 GMT -5
Getting out of his car isn't what led to the confrontation. Chasing down an unarmed teenager because he didn't like the way he looked is what led to a confrontation. If he'd just gotten out of his car, stayed on the phone with 911, and stayed away from Trayvon nothing would have happened. The jurors who were leaning manslaughter at the start of the deliberation said it was the whole chain of decisions Zimmerman made that led to the confrontation.
Whether you think he's guilty of anything or not, you have to admit there was more than one stupid decision on his part prior to finding himself on the ground with Trayvon on top of him.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 13:40:06 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 13:44:38 GMT -5
See that bolded part, you want to explain to me how ignoring the 911 dispatcher and chasing a complete stranger down on foot is using usual ordinary caution?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 13:50:18 GMT -5
I could only find 2 pictures of Zimmerman's injuries and I tried to post the links here but for some reason it wouldn't post. I am no expert but his injuries didn't appear to be all that bad to me. From the front, yeah he had a broken nose but that was it. I didn't see any other scrapes and/or swelling other than his nose. From the back, he had a couple of scrapes on his head. I guess whether a person thinks their life is in danger enough to use deadly force is subjective but his injuries looked pretty wimpy to me considering he shot somebody.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 13:50:31 GMT -5
I think I have said that a few times. If not I will say it, GZ made several stupid decisions. I just don't think he was the only one who made stupid decisions, and I don't think his stupid decisions alone lead to that moment of him on the ground with TM on top.
I also don't think the stupid decisions GZ made are any differnt then stupid decisions others have made, and we praise them for making those decisions. Seeing someone suspicious, following them. Those are the choices GZ made. Those are choices the teenagers in my other example made. So which is it, is a good think to act on suspicion if you think the cops will be to late or are other wise busy, or not. We as a society can't have it both ways.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 13:55:02 GMT -5
The teenagers in your example were part of a city wide search for a missing girl that was being directed by the police. They weren't a guy acting alone that ignored the 911 dispatchers directions, and carried a gun which is a violation of neighborhood watch protocol.
Sure we can since your example has very little in common with the Zimmerman situation.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 16, 2013 13:55:48 GMT -5
He had his head smashed into the ground more than once whether the result looked wimpy or not. Had that continued to happen he might have been the one who ended up dead.
Again as far as chasing Martin, his account to the cops stated that Martin confronted him after he hung up the phone. He told them Martin came from the left rear of his car and attacked him. Is it true? He's the only one left alive that knows but anything else is pure conjecture.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 13:56:17 GMT -5
Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was black. So it was light enough outside that he could determine skin color.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 13:57:50 GMT -5
Which is part of the problem. Zimmerman could have attacked Martin first, then Martin hits Zimmerman, and Zimmerman shoots him. Didn't Martin have a right to defend himself?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 13:58:10 GMT -5
The medical expert witness disagrees with you. They testified that Zimmerman's injuries were consistent with his head hitting the ground once and that his injuries were overall insignificant and not life threatening.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 13:58:15 GMT -5
So did he chase him, or was he following at a distant to see where he went, and TM turned around and came back at him. I have already said that if I was neighborhood watch, and I was on duty yes I would feel that I would need to keep an eye on the person I felt was suspicious. If I could not do that from my car, I would do it on foot trying to keep a distance between us, so I could give the cops a more detail location when they arrived. Saying that, obviously I feel like I could do that using ordinary caution. You apparently do not.
So it goes to what is ordinary caution, most likely everyone here has a differnt opinion on that, and it will cover a large range.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 14:01:22 GMT -5
Listen to the 911 call. After the fact he says no. Based on the call, it sure sounds like he did. He's never been able to explain why Trayvon didn't confront him and kept walking towards the house he was staying in then when he was only 100 yards away from the house turned around and went after Zimmerman. Sure sounds and smells like bullshit to me.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 16, 2013 14:03:39 GMT -5
The medical expert witness disagrees with you. They testified that Zimmerman's injuries were consistent with his head hitting the ground once and that his injuries were overall insignificant and not life threatening. Which medical expert is that because there was more than one? One of which said: "Lacerations to Zimmerman's head suggested the use of "severe force," he said, lending credence to his claim that Martin slammed Zimmerman's head into a concrete walkway after knocking him to the ground with a punch that broke his nose."
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 14:06:05 GMT -5
I see lots in common. Teens and GZ both saw someone they thought were suspicious. Teens were part of a neighborhood search, GZ was part of the neighborhood watch. Both community activities in response to criminal behavior. Both made the choice of following the suspicious person. Neither waited for the police to act, GZ notified the police, the teens did not they just followed. Teens had police in eyesight, why didn't they say hey officer, that car and driver are suspicious. Do you think the police would have said, hey teens why don't you follow that car. They would have told them to stay put. The endings are majorly different and that influences on how we view their choices at the start. But there was no way for either to know what the outcome of their choices would have been when they made the first choices.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 14:10:47 GMT -5
I do think Zimmerman left some things out of the story. I certainly think he was at least following him. But who made the first unlawful move, I have no idea. If it was GZ than he got away with it, if it was TM than it was self defense, but reasonable doubt is there. Emotions have no room in a court of law.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 14:13:28 GMT -5
Or the punch that broke his nose knocked him over and he hit the sidewalk when he fell. I've bounced my head off a parking lot and my injuries were more severe than Zimmerman's and nobody hit me first or slammed my head into the concrete.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 16, 2013 14:14:53 GMT -5
Did the teens get close enough to trade blows or did they follow from a distance?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 16, 2013 14:17:31 GMT -5
Yet the expert witness said:
"Slammed Zimmerman's head into a concrete walkway AFTER knocking him to the ground with a punch that broke his nose."
Most of what you seem to be posting is conjecture and incorrect compared to what jurors were told and what evidence suggested. That doesn't fly in a courtroom.
Edit - For the record I'm not defending or supporting how this happened as I think it could have completely been avoided. As I said earlier in this thread I had the joy of sitting on a case that was nothing big but the judge and prosecuter made it clear that you don't speculate. Add in how much the media twists things and it makes this whole thing even sadder.
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