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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 15:28:17 GMT -5
If only Dark would have came forward and testified, they could have got the conviction.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 15:29:13 GMT -5
Really the only important fact in this whole thing is: Was Martin on top of Zimmerman hitting him? Yes (The witness confirmed that). Did he keep hitting him? (Yes, the witness & evidence confirmed that). To me the shooting was justified. I would have done the same thing if that had happened to me. So he started it and was getting his ass handed to him so that justify him shooting the kid. Ok got it!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 14, 2013 15:29:14 GMT -5
So? I'd probably run before I'd call the cops too. He was pretty close to his dad's house, he can probably get there before the police respond anyway. By the way witnesses did report hearing somebody screaming for help but it's unclear whether it was Trayvon or Zimmerman. Zimmerman says it was him, but then he's the only one alive to tell his side of the story. I thought the screaming for help witnesses were useless. Unless all the parties who said they heard the scream also personally knew both men relatively well and knew the sounds of their voices after having heard both voices over a period of time should not have been called as witnesses. For a neighbor, or George Zimmerman's or Trayvon Martin's parents to say it was one or the other's voice screaming was meaningless.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 14, 2013 15:33:40 GMT -5
Agreed, it was completely pointless testimony. What I'm saying is, there's no proof that Zimmerman's story checks out either. He could have pushed, grabbed, tackled, or hit Trayvon first, and it could have been Trayvon calling for help. Only two people actually know. One of them is dead, and the other was facing prison time for killing him.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 14, 2013 15:35:01 GMT -5
All we know for sure is that at some point in the fight Trayvon got the upper hand and Zimmerman shot him. Everything before that is murky and the only person clearly relaying the events has every incentive to lie and make himself look as innocent as possible.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 15:36:37 GMT -5
It's not self defense if you started the fight though. You can't pick fights and shoot your way out if the other guy happens to be a better boxer than you. That's not self defense in any state in the country. Except apparently Floriduh now. And no one will ever know who started the fight. Following a suspicious person is not illegal. Carrying a fun is not illegal. Walking in a neighborhood is not illegal (I'm talking about TM)...it comes down to who started the right and only 2 people were there and 1 is now dead.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 15:37:40 GMT -5
All we know for sure is that at some point in the fight Trayvon got the upper hand and Zimmerman shot him. Everything before that is murky and the only person clearly relaying the events has every incentive to lie and make himself look as innocent as possible. Of course he had incentive to lie. But you can't find someone guilty because of an incentive. No testimony contradicted his testimony
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 15:40:36 GMT -5
This just seems like blaming the victim, talking about what Trayvon should have done differently. Blaming the victim isn't right in other kinds of cases, and it isn't right in this one. If he started the fight then be isn't a victim. I don't know what happened...no one knows what happened. I understand following someone that'll a suspicious if you are neighborhood watch. I understand shooting someone that is beating the shit out of me. It is he stuff that happened in between those two events that are crucial and unfortunately, we will never know what really happened
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jul 14, 2013 15:41:55 GMT -5
And that was this year! I have to say it would never occur to me to not go somewhere because I have the stroller with me. LOL. Me neither, because I'm not a thief. Like I said, I have lots of stories from childhood to present day. That's just how it is. And it's very irritating when people from other parts of the country or people that that never venture outside their comfort zone or open their eyes try to tell me that it doesn't exist. I'm not one to go looking for trouble, and I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I don't pretend that there are no racial issues anymore. To be honest reading this thread has been like entering the Twilight zone for me. There are so many different opinions and standing back I can see where most of you (but not quite all) are coming from. I have stayed away from this case as far as I possibly could, because I am getting very disgusted with the trials by the media which seem to have become the norm all in the name of the "latest scoop". Anyone remember the Atlanta bomber? The man accused was innocent but ruined nonetheless. So I am staying away. BUT this thread has brought out the racial perceptions that are prevalent in our society and if there is anything to be gained from this at all, this is where we need to go. Think that people of color need to "get over" the past? Ok! That should work, if and only if, we turn our attention to what we need to fix in today's society! I don't feel guilty for what was done by others hundreds of years or even just decades ago. But that does not excuse me if I perpetuate past wrongs or replace them with new ones. As a society we need to understand each others' POV if we are to have a chance at a better society, one that is fair to all of us. And only an open dialogue will get us there. Without a doubt feelings will be hurt along the way. No matter how much we will like to deny it, too many newscasts show "thugs in hoodies" being led into court and people do get scared. On the other side there are too many people who think there is nothing wrong with running around armed shooting whomever they think doesn't belong, doesn't look right, scares them, or whatever, without any other reason than their own imagination running wild. ;Maybe when we bring these groups together and reach a certain level of trust and understanding, we will have a society that will be intolerant only to racists and criminals. But we won't get there if we are not willing to do the work needed and keep hiding behind our preconceptions.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 14, 2013 15:49:36 GMT -5
Agreed, it was completely pointless testimony. What I'm saying is, there's no proof that Zimmerman's story checks out either. He could have pushed, grabbed, tackled, or hit Trayvon first, and it could have been Trayvon calling for help. Only two people actually know. One of them is dead, and the other was facing prison time for killing him. I agree completely. I also think had this all occurred during the daytime with the same results, there might have been a different outcome in court. Sights and sounds are a bit different after dark in addition to the rain and drizzle which was falling hat evening.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 15:54:09 GMT -5
It's not self defense if you started the fight though. You can't pick fights and shoot your way out if the other guy happens to be a better boxer than you. That's not self defense in any state in the country. Except apparently Floriduh now. And no one will ever know who started the fight. Following a suspicious person is not illegal. Carrying a fun is not illegal. Walking in a neighborhood is not illegal (I'm talking about TM)...it comes down to who started the right and only 2 people were there and 1 is now dead. Is defending yourself when you have reason to fear bodily harm illegal? I believe Trayvon had reason to fear that Zimmerman was trying to harm him.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 14, 2013 15:58:56 GMT -5
No, and you don't even have to get hit a single time to claim self defense. You have to reasonably fear future bodily harm. Like say a strange armed dude with a criminal history is following you around at night and chases you home.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 16:00:05 GMT -5
And no one will ever know who started the fight. Following a suspicious person is not illegal. Carrying a fun is not illegal. Walking in a neighborhood is not illegal (I'm talking about TM)...it comes down to who started the right and only 2 people were there and 1 is now dead. Is defending yourself when you have reason to fear bodily harm illegal? I believe Trayvon had reason to fear that Zimmerman was trying to harm him. That is a great question...but TM wasn't on trial. One mans perceived threat doesn't negate another mans perceived threat. If he wasn't killed I wonder if he would have been brought up on charges or if the same defense for GZ would have been his defense (die beating GZ) or if no charges would have ever been files.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:05:13 GMT -5
Is defending yourself when you have reason to fear bodily harm illegal? I believe Trayvon had reason to fear that Zimmerman was trying to harm him. That is a great question...but TM wasn't on trial. One mans perceived threat doesn't negate another mans perceived threat. If he wasn't killed I wonder if he would have been brought up on charges or if the same defense for GZ would have been his defense (die beating GZ) or if no charges would have ever been files. I've developed a headache and I'd have to think a bit too much at the moment to figure out what you're saying. I'll have to get back to you on that one!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 16:06:34 GMT -5
That is a great question...but TM wasn't on trial. One mans perceived threat doesn't negate another mans perceived threat. If he wasn't killed I wonder if he would have been brought up on charges or if the same defense for GZ would have been his defense (die beating GZ) or if no charges would have ever been files. I've developed a headache and I'd have to think a bit too much at the moment to figure out what you're saying. I'll have to get back to you on that one! I think we have the same headache!lol
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 14, 2013 16:08:38 GMT -5
Honestly from what we know, I think if Trayvon survived the shooting they'd both be claiming self defense and saying the other guy started it. No way to know for sure, but based on the little we do know I think they both felt threatened, for very different reasons, right before the fists started flying.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:09:56 GMT -5
I have to say that even though we danced around some touchy subjects and have varied opinions, I'm glad we were all able to maintain a mostly civilized conversation. I do vaguely remember wanting to pinch Tina a couple of times though. So girly, talking about screaming and running.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 16:13:06 GMT -5
There are several inaccuracies being posted here. The neighborhood in question was not an upscale neighborhood. According to all I've read, it was a middle-class, gated community and racially mixed. We don't know who "assaulted" whom. Grabbing someone, or pushing them, is assault, just as hitting someone is assault. We know who died and we know who got smacked around. That's all we know. We don't know whether GZ was still following TM at the point of the altercation, or whether he was returning to his car as he claims. These are things we'll never know for sure.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 16:13:54 GMT -5
I have to say that even though we danced around some touchy subjects and have varied opinions, I'm glad we were all able to maintain a mostly civilized conversation. I do vaguely remember wanting to pinch Tina a couple of times though. So girly, talking about screaming and running. Lol! Come on, I had some valid points...and remember, I'm from PA so I'm packing...you don't bring fists to a gunfight :-p
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 16:14:53 GMT -5
Honestly from what we know, I think if Trayvon survived the shooting they'd both be claiming self defense and saying the other guy started it. No way to know for sure, but based on the little we do know I think they both felt threatened, for very different reasons, right before the fists started flying. That I agree with.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:19:01 GMT -5
I kept referring to upscale neighborhoods. I stopped keeping up with the case a long time ago, so I don't know where I got that from. Probably the suggestion that Zimmerman thought Martin looked out of place. Oh well, I think I've had enough seriousness for the day. Apologies for any inaccuracies I contributed to.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:20:31 GMT -5
I have to say that even though we danced around some touchy subjects and have varied opinions, I'm glad we were all able to maintain a mostly civilized conversation. I do vaguely remember wanting to pinch Tina a couple of times though. So girly, talking about screaming and running. Lol! Come on, I had some valid points...and remember, I'm from PA so I'm packing...you don't bring fists to a gunfight :-p The running, screaming girls with big hair always trip and fall in the movies.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 14, 2013 16:24:44 GMT -5
We'll never know but this is the part of Zimmerman's story I doubt the most. Trayvon was heading home the whole time, and one of the last things he said to his girlfriend on the phone before the fight broke out was I'm almost there. I see no reason he would double back and jump Zimmerman when he spent the whole time trying to walk then run away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:47:02 GMT -5
I have to say that even though we danced around some touchy subjects and have varied opinions, I'm glad we were all able to maintain a mostly civilized conversation. I do vaguely remember wanting to pinch Tina a couple of times though. So girly, talking about screaming and running. we all want to pinch Tina at some point....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:51:51 GMT -5
Clearly not since Trayvon was staying there with his dad and Zimmerman didn't know him. Except clearly Trayvon didn't live there nor his dad. They were visiting his dad's fiancée.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 14, 2013 16:53:19 GMT -5
So? He still had every right to be there, and to walk to the store and buy soda and candy during halftime.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Jul 14, 2013 17:20:27 GMT -5
I obviously come from a totally different world from most of you. I'm seriously surprised that so many people here think it's ok to follow and confront someone that's just walking down the street. And the expectation that the person you follow and confront should not possibly perceive a strange man following them as a threat so they should respond nicely and respectfully, is UNREAL. I can see (and agree with) reporting suspicious behavior to the police, but like Jenny asked pages ago, what did Trayvon do that was so suspicious? Oh you missed it? - he did not belong in that place - he should know his place - if he is going to be in that neighborhood he better follow a "dress code" I am one that will not re-act to kindly to a stranger following me in his car, then getting out of his car to follow me on foot. Per this board he should have been submissive and respectful to a total stranger following him around in the middle of the night. - black - did not dress appropriately - did not "belong" aka like pink encountered : should have gone back to the hood where he belongs. 3 strikes and you're out! The situation with "getting your ghetto asses backto where you belong " ala Pink's experience ( a terrible one ), reminds me of a clip I saw on a show called " American Muslim ", which was filmed not too far from where we lived. Several young Muslim sisters were interviewed. Two followed the Koran's standards of modest dress for women, and two were more Americanized, although they still covered with longer-sleeved shirts and conservative necklines. One of the observantly-dressed sisters, who has a masters degree in public relations, and is employed as a publich speaker all over the country, related how a woman ( Caucasian persuasion ) cornered her in an airport and screamed at her to get back to where she came from, because she wasn't wanted there. The sister replied that she was born in Dearborn in Michigan, was a U.S. citizen, and so where exactly did the lady want her to "get back to ?" It's just embarassing when whites act like that. Dumb shits.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 14, 2013 17:22:13 GMT -5
Clearly not since Trayvon was staying there with his dad and Zimmerman didn't know him. Except clearly Trayvon didn't live there nor his dad. They were visiting his dad's fiancée. No overnight guests allowed at the condo complex? Interesting information about the The Retreat at Twin Lakes: Trayvon Martin's killing shatters safety within Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford
There appears to have been high turnover of residents in the complex. No way in the world would Zimmerman know everyone who lived there when at least half of the homes were rented.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 17:46:45 GMT -5
Oh you missed it? - he did not belong in that place - he should know his place - if he is going to be in that neighborhood he better follow a "dress code" I am one that will not re-act to kindly to a stranger following me in his car, then getting out of his car to follow me on foot. Per this board he should have been submissive and respectful to a total stranger following him around in the middle of the night. - black - did not dress appropriately - did not "belong" aka like pink encountered : should have gone back to the hood where he belongs. 3 strikes and you're out! The situation with "getting your ghetto asses backto where you belong " ala Pink's experience ( a terrible one ), reminds me of a clip I saw on a show called " American Muslim ", which was filmed not too far from where we lived. Several young Muslim sisters were interviewed. Two followed the Koran's standards of modest dress for women, and two were more Americanized, although they still covered with longer-sleeved shirts and conservative necklines. One of the observantly-dressed sisters, who has a masters degree in public relations, and is employed as a publich speaker all over the country, related how a woman ( Caucasian persuasion ) cornered her in an airport and screamed at her to get back to where she came from, because she wasn't wanted there. The sister replied that she was born in Dearborn in Michigan, was a U.S. citizen, and so where exactly did the lady want her to "get back to ?" It's just embarassing when whites act like that. Dumb shits. So whites are the only ones that act poorly? For all those who weren't paying attention or were too worried about the possible racial slur in the 911 call ( no way to know what GZ said), it has been some time and time again that TM called GZ a cracker....you all realize that is also a racial slur? But we all gloss over that one... How about there are dumb shits in every race, ethnicity, religion, etc?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 17:53:30 GMT -5
I have to say that even though we danced around some touchy subjects and have varied opinions, I'm glad we were all able to maintain a mostly civilized conversation. I do vaguely remember wanting to pinch Tina a couple of times though. So girly, talking about screaming and running. we all want to pinch Tina at some point.... You mispelled hug :-p
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