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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:25:44 GMT -5
I must live in a trashy neighborhood. One time the cops asked me if I'd seen a man in a polo shirt and dockers walking around. Apparently the neighbors called it in as suspicious. I think Zimmerman followed Martin because he was a black teen in a neighborhood that had a rash of break-ins by black teens. As the head of the neighborhood watch the neighbors were informing Zimmerman every time there was an incident. I'm sure that served to make him more paranoid over time. Martin probably felt no need to explain himself to some random dude that approached him in the evening. I wouldn't explain myself. I don't blame either of them for defending themselves. I do blame Zimmerman for bringing a gun, which as I understand it is prohibited under the Neighborhood Watch program. It escalated the situation. Otherwise it might have ended with some broken noses and black eyes on both sides. Or there might not have been a confrontation at all if having the gun is what made it feel safe for Zimmerman to approach. There's ample evidence to show that when guns are involved in any sort of dispute the death rate rises. I'm reading The Devil in the Grove right now. It's a book about Thurgood Marshall defending three black men in Florida on a capital crime - the purported rape of a white 17 year old woman. It was a huge civil rights case and over the course of the events the four black men were reduced to two by murder. One of the two remaining defendants was a victim of attempted murder by the Sheriff himself. At the time Florida had more lynchings than any other state and this was in the late 1940's and 1950's - it's not that long ago. Black people were being taken from jail and murdered. Police were breaking in to black people's homes and businesses and vandalizing them. Sheriff McCall, who attempted to murder one of the defendants, remained the Sheriff into the 1970's. That seems pretty damn recent to me and it reminds me of the early years of Nazi Germany where it was acceptable to publicly humiliate, harm, and strip the rights from certain segments of society. The book is horrifying in the details of the terror and lack of justice that black citizens lived under. It's not just about slavery but about the one hundred years that came after the Civil War. I think more people should learn this history.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:26:50 GMT -5
Wow what? He crossed the line of criminality by striking physical blows. If someone was following me at night, you bet I'd fight back first rather than wait to see what they wanted. That is not very safe. I'm not a out to approach a stranger because I could easily be over one either by strength or a weapon.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:31:43 GMT -5
If someone was following me at night, you bet I'd fight back first rather than wait to see what they wanted. That is not very safe. I'm not a out to approach a stranger because I could easily be over one either by strength or a weapon. Wow...my phone took a lot of liberties with those autocorrects!lol
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:31:44 GMT -5
Acknowledgement, understanding, common ground... White, male privilege exists. I would not have believed it until I lived it, but it is there no matter how much we swear we have evolved.
And when they say that they need reparations to give them a hand out of systemic poverty, do you pay for the sins of "your grandfather"?
Think it through to the end game. This is important. Everyone sits down, acknowledges the past, agrees there is still racism today, and then what?? Problem solved? No, then reparations will come up. That is the end game.
O.M.G. Reparations? Are you serious? I know a lot of black people and I've had a lot of conversations about race. I have NEVER heard anybody say anything about reparations. Maybe talking (and listening) to everyday black folks would counter the things that some people believe speak for all black people.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:33:22 GMT -5
I must live in a trashy neighborhood. One time the cops asked me if I'd seen a man in a polo shirt and dockers walking around. Apparently the neighbors called it in as suspicious. I think Zimmerman followed Martin because he was a black teen in a neighborhood that had a rash of break-ins by black teens. As the head of the neighborhood watch the neighbors were informing Zimmerman every time there was an incident. I'm sure that served to make him more paranoid over time. Martin probably felt no need to explain himself to some random dude that approached him in the evening. I wouldn't explain myself. I don't blame either of them for defending themselves. I do blame Zimmerman for bringing a gun, which as I understand it is prohibited under the Neighborhood Watch program. It escalated the situation. Otherwise it might have ended with some broken noses and black eyes on both sides. Or there might not have been a confrontation at all if having the gun is what made it feel safe for Zimmerman to approach. There's ample evidence to show that when guns are involved in any sort of dispute the death rate rises. I'm reading The Devil in the Grove right now. It's a book about Thurgood Marshall defending three black men in Florida on a capital crime - the purported rape of a white 17 year old woman. It was a huge civil rights case and over the course of the events the four black men were reduced to two by murder. One of the two remaining defendants was a victim of attempted murder by the Sheriff himself. At the time Florida had more lynchings than any other state and this was in the late 1940's and 1950's - it's not that long ago. Black people were being taken from jail and murdered. Police were breaking in to black people's homes and businesses and vandalizing them. Sheriff McCall, who attempted to murder one of the defendants, remained the Sheriff into the 1970's. That seems pretty damn recent to me and it reminds me of the early years of Nazi Germany where it was acceptable to publicly humiliate, harm, and strip the rights from certain segments of society. The book is horrifying in the details of the terror and lack of justice that black citizens lived under. It's not just about slavery but about the one hundred years that came after the Civil War. I think more people should learn this history. But there comes a time when people need to stop living in the past. I never owned a slave, I wasn't alive during the separate black entrance, etc. I shouldn't have to pay for the sins of past generations.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:37:45 GMT -5
And when they say that they need reparations to give them a hand out of systemic poverty, do you pay for the sins of "your grandfather"?
Think it through to the end game. This is important. Everyone sits down, acknowledges the past, agrees there is still racism today, and then what?? Problem solved? No, then reparations will come up. That is the end game.
O.M.G. Reparations? Are you serious? I know a lot of black people and I've had a lot of conversations about race. I have NEVER heard anybody say anything about reparations. Maybe talking (and listening) to everyday black folks would counter the things that some people believe speak for all black people. The black people that I know in real life do not seem to encounter the blatant racism that some of you seem to encounter.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 14, 2013 12:38:16 GMT -5
Reasonable people aren't asking you to. I'm sure they'd be happy if everyone could just manage to stop perpetuating the past ones.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:38:41 GMT -5
And when they say that they need reparations to give them a hand out of systemic poverty, do you pay for the sins of "your grandfather"?
Think it through to the end game. This is important. Everyone sits down, acknowledges the past, agrees there is still racism today, and then what?? Problem solved? No, then reparations will come up. That is the end game.
O.M.G. Reparations? Are you serious? I know a lot of black people and I've had a lot of conversations about race. I have NEVER heard anybody say anything about reparations. Maybe talking (and listening) to everyday black folks would counter the things that some people believe speak for all black people. Everyday black folks wouldn't have a seat at the table. Their leaders will ask for reparations. Plenty of them have brought it up recently if you search.
Or do you think words of understanding and acceptance will make all the problems go away?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:38:55 GMT -5
O.M.G. Reparations? Are you serious? I know a lot of black people and I've had a lot of conversations about race. I have NEVER heard anybody say anything about reparations. Maybe talking (and listening) to everyday black folks would counter the things that some people believe speak for all black people. The black people that I know in real life do not seem to encounter the blatant racism that some of you seem to encounter. Do they want reparations?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:40:05 GMT -5
O.M.G. Reparations? Are you serious? I know a lot of black people and I've had a lot of conversations about race. I have NEVER heard anybody say anything about reparations. Maybe talking (and listening) to everyday black folks would counter the things that some people believe speak for all black people. Everyday black folks wouldn't have a seat at the table. Their leaders will ask for reparations. Plenty of them have brought it up recently if you search.
Or do you think words of understanding and acceptance will make all the problems go away?
Who are "their leaders"? LOL
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:41:43 GMT -5
Everyday black folks wouldn't have a seat at the table. Their leaders will ask for reparations. Plenty of them have brought it up recently if you search.
Or do you think words of understanding and acceptance will make all the problems go away?
Who are "their leaders"? LOL I was going to ask that too because I am black and apparently I missed the memo!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:43:13 GMT -5
The black people that I know in real life do not seem to encounter the blatant racism that some of you seem to encounter. Do they want reparations? Lol! Nope! I didn't see about the reparations until after I posted... To clarify, that is not what I meant about me not having to pay for prior generations mistakes!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:45:20 GMT -5
Reasonable people aren't asking you to. I'm sure they'd be happy if everyone could just manage to stop perpetuating the past ones. I'm not sure how this has anything to do with perpetrating past mistakes.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 12:45:31 GMT -5
O.M.G. Reparations? Are you serious? I know a lot of black people and I've had a lot of conversations about race. I have NEVER heard anybody say anything about reparations. Maybe talking (and listening) to everyday black folks would counter the things that some people believe speak for all black people. The black people that I know in real life do not seem to encounter the blatant racism that some of you seem to encounter. I had a friend tell me sometimes she preferred the south because at least the racism is blatant. She knew where she stood there. It's harder to tell here. Even though you weren't alive, doesn't mean those actions haven't shaped you. Even if you truly are color blind, most people are not. Zimmerman wasnt. Skin color shouldn't matter, but it is one of the first things we all see in a person, and as you've said- appearance does matter.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 12:46:02 GMT -5
See Tina, knew we couldn't agree to long. It's not the past that is causing the issues, there are still problems and race issues that our generation is committing, these are the ones that need to be talked about. I do think both races make assumptions, and judgement that can just be ridiculous. I know I have called out my family, as well as my ILs on things that have been said, sometimes it like, really, did you just hear what you said.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:46:56 GMT -5
Ok, MMC, I'll admit that was a trick question. As I use to try to explain on P&M, white America seems to pay way more attention to the supposed black leaders that stay in the media than black people do. Who speaks for all of white America? Anyone? Should I consider Rush Limbaugh leader for white America just because he likes to flap his gums? I do not.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 12:49:03 GMT -5
I about lost it when my mil started talking about how she can't shop in a certain area anymore, because she was the only white woman there. If it was just my mil, whatever, but it isn't.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:51:19 GMT -5
See Tina, knew we couldn't agree to long. It's not the past that is causing the issues, there are still problems and race issues that our generation is committing, these are the ones that need to be talked about. I do think both races make assumptions, and judgement that can just be ridiculous. I know I have called out my family, as well as my ILs on things that have been said, sometimes it like, really, did you just hear what you said.
What race issues is our generation causing? We have a black president!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:53:10 GMT -5
I had a friend tell me sometimes she preferred the south because at least the racism is blatant. She knew where she stood there. It's harder to tell here.
A woman walked in front of my car as I was leaving a fairground. I didn't come close to hitting her, but she loudly and clearly called me a n------. This was about 8 years ago, in Illinois.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 12:54:44 GMT -5
The big mouths.....
I don't think most of it is blantant anymore, I think it is subtle and most of the time people don't even realize they are doing it until it is pointed out. I don't think a lot of it is done with malice either, but more without knowing because that is what is normal in their subgroup.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:54:46 GMT -5
The black people that I know in real life do not seem to encounter the blatant racism that some of you seem to encounter. I had a friend tell me sometimes she preferred the south because at least the racism is blatant. She knew where she stood there. It's harder to tell here. Even though you weren't alive, doesn't mean those actions haven't shaped you. Even if you truly are color blind, most people are not. Zimmerman wasnt. Skin color shouldn't matter, but it is one of the first things we all see in a person, and as you've said- appearance does matter. Appearance and attitude are huge. If you don't want to get judged as a gangbanger, don't dress and act like one. The business manager at my old firm was black. She raised two terrific boys and she told me that from the time they were little that if they ever tried to act ghetto or like gangbabgers, she would smack the black off them. If I saw either of he two sons in my neighborhood I wouldn't blink. Dress like a gangbanger and it is going to cause suspicion and scare people. It isn't the color of the skin, it is the clothes and attitude
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 12:55:34 GMT -5
The big mouths..... I don't think most of it is blantant anymore, I think it is subtle and most of the time people don't even realize they are doing it until it is pointed out. I don't think a lot of it is done with malice either, but more without knowing because that is what is normal in their subgroup. I seriously don't know what you mean. What are we doing?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 13:02:21 GMT -5
I find the different perspectives here based upon a poster's race interesting. I am unable to know what it is like to be black American in America or arrogant enough to dismiss their past and present views, concerns and experiences as simply whining about the past. More than one poster on the P&M board's Trayvon Martin thread has stated the American Civil war ended over 160 years ago and black Americans need to "get over it". We need a national, frank discussion in our country on race and few non-blacks seem to want to have it because it's uncomfortable. Hopefully our younger citizens will do better discussing racial issues than us older folks. I think it's interesting too. I engaged in a few discussions about race issues back when I was silly enough to post on the old P&M boards. It was easy to dismiss my experiences and views because I was the only one speaking from that place, so I learned to not engage. I only engaged in this thread because like I said before, I have a teenage son. And I'm trying to understand what Trayvon did that night that was so suspicious that Zimmerman actually got out of his vehicle to follow him. I'm trying to understand why it's preposterous that Trayvon might have perceived Zimmerman following him as a threat to his life, which it turned out, he was. I don't understand why it was on Trayvon to be respectful and submissive to a strange man that got out of his car to follow him on foot. It could have been a murderer following him. Oh that's right............ the man that followed him did kill him. This could so easily be my son and it's damn scary. Pink, I can only imagine how this must make you, and other mothers just like you (whatever their race), feel. Most people aren't Zimmerman, thankfully. I hate to think of mothers sitting in their homes fearing for the safety of their teen children because they fear there might be someone like Zimmerman tailing their child. Heck, wearing a hoodie in the rain could be the kid who lives down the street from me. He's Asian. He's got a friend (Caucasian) with whom he hangs out who dresses exactly as he does. Either of them could be easily singled out in the same way TM was.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 14, 2013 13:07:04 GMT -5
I think it's interesting too. I engaged in a few discussions about race issues back when I was silly enough to post on the old P&M boards. It was easy to dismiss my experiences and views because I was the only one speaking from that place, so I learned to not engage. I only engaged in this thread because like I said before, I have a teenage son. And I'm trying to understand what Trayvon did that night that was so suspicious that Zimmerman actually got out of his vehicle to follow him. I'm trying to understand why it's preposterous that Trayvon might have perceived Zimmerman following him as a threat to his life, which it turned out, he was. I don't understand why it was on Trayvon to be respectful and submissive to a strange man that got out of his car to follow him on foot. It could have been a murderer following him. Oh that's right............ the man that followed him did kill him. This could so easily be my son and it's damn scary. Pink, I can only imagine how this must make you, and other mothers just like you (whatever their race), feel. Most people aren't Zimmerman, thankfully. I hate to think of mothers sitting in their homes fearing for the safety of their teen children because they fear there might be someone like Zimmerman tailing their child. Heck, wearing a hoodie in the rain could be the kid who lives down the street from me. He's Asian. He's got a friend (Caucasian) with whom he hangs out who dresses exactly as he does. Either of them could be easily singled out in the same was TM was. Any maybe kids like that are targeted but it doesn't make the news because no one can scream "race"
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 13:10:12 GMT -5
Tina I think we are getting better, and I think it will take time. But our generation still continues certain stereotypes and racial beliefs. And that is something I think we do need to focus on and discuss. Why does my DH get comments on how nice it is to see a black man take an active role raising his children. Being involved, going to parent teacher conferences, doctor appointments ect... The black man as a deadbeat dad is a stereotype that seems to be promoted way more then that of a white dad. And by promoting the stereotype and make it the, norm, we are accepting it into society.
When enrolling my daughter into activities, they tend to be mostly one race or another. She has taken horseback riding for 2 years now, I have yet to see a black child there. But when she did basketball camp, there were majority black children. Both cost about the same, both were with the community department, so why the difference in kids if certain activities are not considered more one race acceptable then the other.
What I have tend to run into is a lot of, "we don't do that<" me--- "Why not"? ummmmmmmmm well. Okay so lets try it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 13:11:51 GMT -5
Pink, I can only imagine how this must make you, and other mothers just like you (whatever their race), feel. Most people aren't Zimmerman, thankfully. I hate to think of mothers sitting in their homes fearing for the safety of their teen children because they fear there might be someone like Zimmerman tailing their child. Heck, wearing a hoodie in the rain could be the kid who lives down the street from me. He's Asian. He's got a friend (Caucasian) with whom he hangs out who dresses exactly as he does. Either of them could be easily singled out in the same was TM was. Any maybe kids like that are targeted but it doesn't make the news because no one can scream "race" And, maybe it's because these kids haven't been targeted so neither one of them is dead.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 13:12:03 GMT -5
I had a friend tell me sometimes she preferred the south because at least the racism is blatant. She knew where she stood there. It's harder to tell here. Even though you weren't alive, doesn't mean those actions haven't shaped you. Even if you truly are color blind, most people are not. Zimmerman wasnt. Skin color shouldn't matter, but it is one of the first things we all see in a person, and as you've said- appearance does matter. Appearance and attitude are huge. If you don't want to get judged as a gangbanger, don't dress and act like one. The business manager at my old firm was black. She raised two terrific boys and she told me that from the time they were little that if they ever tried to act ghetto or like gangbabgers, she would smack the black off them. If I saw either of he two sons in my neighborhood I wouldn't blink. Dress like a gangbanger and it is going to cause suspicion and scare people. It isn't the color of the skin, it is the clothes and attitude So, I wonder what it was a couple weeks ago when my daughter and I went in Ann Taylors in a wealthier part of my area. We were dressed like everybody else that was out, except I have a nose ring and DD's hair is natural (kinky). We were COMPLETELY ignored, while everybody that came through the door after us got a greeting at least and most were also asked if they needed some help. My daughter told me she was uncomfortable, which made me refuse to walk right back out. We were in there browsing for at least 20 minutes and none of the sales people said a word to us. We were the only black women in the store. Of course, I can't say for sure what the problem was. It certainly wasn't that they were all too busy helping other customers. Ann Taylor isn't so posh that I looked like I couldn't possibly afford the clothes. I went a few doors down and with the help of a great saleswoman, spent several hundred dollars. Which reminds me, DD was standing outside the dressing room with the baby in his stroller while I tried on some clothes. The saleswoman told her she could go in with me and sit down if she wanted to. She said "I know some people judge and would have a problem with it because of the stroller, but I'm not like that". She was white. It's not a well-kept secret.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 13:19:15 GMT -5
Why on earth would anybody have a problem with someone's daughter, and the daughter's baby in a stroller, sitting in the dressing room while mom tries on clothes?!? That makes absolutely no sense to me!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 13:22:47 GMT -5
Why on earth would anybody have a problem with someone's daughter, and the daughter's baby in a stroller, sitting in the dressing room while mom tries on clothes?!? That makes absolutely no sense to me! Thieves use baby strollers to hide the merchandise.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 13:25:07 GMT -5
OH! I guess every time I see a baby stroller now, with or without baby, I've got to assume it's full of loot! NOT!
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