raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 11:39:01 GMT -5
Wow what? He crossed the line of criminality by striking physical blows. If someone was following me at night, you bet I'd fight back first rather than wait to see what they wanted.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 11:39:27 GMT -5
We don't know as a fact, we also don't know that it is a lie as a fact. There is physical evidence to support that Zimmerman was losing the fight when he shot, but we don't know who actually started the physical fight.
We don't know who broke the law, and who was defending themselves from the other breaking the law. And that is where reasonable doubt comes in.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 14, 2013 11:40:39 GMT -5
Well, i am sorry. But, if there was ANY evidence that GZ had punched or assaulted Trayvon, then i believe he would have gotten convicted. But, there is and was not. And, again Trayvon DID assault GZ. That is a fact. Eyewitness place Trayvon ON TOP of GZ. That is a fact. Those are the facts. I don't know what you expect a jury to do based on that.
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kent
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Post by kent on Jul 14, 2013 11:41:53 GMT -5
Possibly so.
I was raised in "the hood" and, as such, learned at a very early age it's all about "respect."
I obviously was not a juror and don't have all the facts (see post 330 for instance) but, if I were Zimmerman and saw somebody I didn't know wearing a "hoody" walking in the rain, while being cautious, I would nonetheless have rolled up on him, quickly judged his demeanor and most likely would have asked if he needed a ride (I'm quite capable of protecting myself so no major concerns).
Because of the "respect" shown to the young man, he would most have likely have said, "Thanks man." End of entire story - nobody gets hurt and certainly nobody gets shot.
On the other hand, it may still have gone badly if the young man had become confrontational from the outset.
Again, I wasn't there so I cannot pass judgment on either party....just saying.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 11:42:29 GMT -5
Well, again neither Zimmerman nor Travyon were engaged in any illegal behavior UNTIL Trayvon crossed that line into an assault. And you are certain he is the one that crossed the line first? What tells you that Zimmerman did not grab him by the shoulder while he was walking away? Me: weird guy following me in the dark and grabbing my shoulder. Reaction: defend myself. He should have identified himself before getting close enough to be thought of as a threat. How far do you think someone arms can reach? Unless you are gay and cruising for sex; no one will find it normal nor exciting that a stranger is following them in the dark and even getting out of their car to do so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 11:42:33 GMT -5
That is the only thing i can conclude based on the evidence. Trayvon had not other noted injuries indicative of physical assault. GZ did. Eyewitnesses place Trayvon ON TOP of GZ. I am sorry but those are the facts. I was squarely behind putting GZ in the slammer for as long as possible until i heard all the facts. It is a terrible tragedy for the Martin family. It is a terrible tragedy to lose a young teen life. But, the facts of the trial are what they are and decisions have to be made based on that. None of that proves that Trayvon initiated physical contact.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 14, 2013 11:43:07 GMT -5
Well, we have to pass judgement, that is what the courts do. The only one in this case KNOWN to be breaking the law was Trayvon.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 14, 2013 11:43:57 GMT -5
Well, again neither Zimmerman nor Travyon were engaged in any illegal behavior UNTIL Trayvon crossed that line into an assault. And you are certain he is the one that crossed the line first? What tells you that Zimmerman did not grab him by the shoulder while he was walking away? Me: weird guy following me in the dark and grabbing my shoulder. Reaction: defend myself. He should have identified himself before getting close enough to be thought of as a threat. How far do you think someone arms can reach? Unless you are gay and cruising for sex; no one will find it normal nor exciting that a stranger is following them in the dark and even getting out of their car to do so. I don't know. Maybe he did. But, maybe, maybe, maybe is not enough to convict him.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 14, 2013 11:46:17 GMT -5
It isn't about the "maybes" it is about applying the law. Do i think GZ is an overzealous cop wannabe? Yes. I find it bizarre for someone to be sitting around in a car with a loaded gun looking for suspicious people. If the neighborhood is that freaking dangerous, move away. But, based on applying the law, there is not known facts to convict him. Not guilty doesn't mean completely innocent either.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 11:52:01 GMT -5
Full agree he should have as soon as he began to get close to TM. This is when of those stupid choices that is fully in GZ's column of stupid choice for that night.
Not sure what GZ use to judge, but suspicious I think in many ways that is a personal call.
I myself considering it was raining, wouldn't have consider the hoodie suspicious. Now if you are walking outside on a clear summer night when it is 85 degrees outside with a hoodie, I'm going to wonder. Posture is a big one for me, word choice isn't weighted as much for me, but tone and how you say it, is another one I give more weight too. Hey and I can go to my great aunts and judge someone for being a snob too.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 14, 2013 11:54:06 GMT -5
I find the different perspectives here based upon a poster's race interesting. I am unable to know what it is like to be black American in America or arrogant enough to dismiss their past and present views, concerns and experiences as simply whining about the past. More than one poster on the P&M board's Trayvon Martin thread has stated the American Civil war ended over 160 years ago and black Americans need to "get over it".
We need a national, frank discussion in our country on race and few non-blacks seem to want to have it because it's uncomfortable. Hopefully our younger citizens will do better discussing racial issues than us older folks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 11:58:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the post on the HOA settling with the family. I just posted this on our HOA Facebook site:
"Not looking to discuss the right/wrong of the Zimmerman verdict, but applicable to our association is their HOA settled with the Martin family for the actions of Zimmerman, who was head of the neighborhood watch. As we look to form a neighborhood watch here, we should ensure that our community liability is properly covered or mitigated."
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 11:59:46 GMT -5
Having prejudices and making judgments is different than acting on them. I have prejudices. I do my damndest not to treat people a certain way because of my prejudices. And when they are out of line, I work on letting go of them.
Zimmerman is responsible for his actions that led to Martin's death. No matter who threw the first punch.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 12:01:18 GMT -5
I find the different perspectives here based upon a poster's race interesting. I am unable to know what it is like to be black American in America or arrogant enough to dismiss their past and present views, concerns and experiences as simply whining about the past. More than one poster on the P&M board's Trayvon Martin thread has stated the American Civil war ended over 160 years ago and black Americans need to "get over it". We need a national, frank discussion in our country on race and few non-blacks seem to want to have it because it's uncomfortable. Hopefully our younger citizens will do better discussing racial issues than us older folks. Yes! This exactly!
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 12:01:37 GMT -5
No, but not certain he didn't either. And there is the reasonable doubt.
Hey I already said that.... In which case, I still don't think he should have been convicted of murder ( I don't think he left the car planning on shooting TM), but manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter I would have said guilty. But I don't know that with out a doubt.
Yea that would have been a better way. Or hey are you lost, can I help you.
I'm not saying I would wait for them to be right next to me before asking, but you know I'm loud enough that if they are following me, I'm going to yell out what do you want, before they get close enough where I could hit them. Another good thing, me yelling at them might just draw some attention of the houses around me too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:04:07 GMT -5
I find the different perspectives here based upon a poster's race interesting. I am unable to know what it is like to be black American in America or arrogant enough to dismiss their past and present views, concerns and experiences as simply whining about the past. More than one poster on the P&M board's Trayvon Martin thread has stated the American Civil war ended over 160 years ago and black Americans need to "get over it". We need a national, frank discussion in our country on race and few non-blacks seem to want to have it because it's uncomfortable. Hopefully our younger citizens will do better discussing racial issues than us older folks.
What would be the end game of any discussions? Reparations?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 14, 2013 12:04:44 GMT -5
I find the different perspectives here based upon a poster's race interesting. I am unable to know what it is like to be black American in America or arrogant enough to dismiss their past and present views, concerns and experiences as simply whining about the past. More than one poster on the P&M board's Trayvon Martin thread has stated the American Civil war ended over 160 years ago and black Americans need to "get over it". We need a national, frank discussion in our country on race and few non-blacks seem to want to have it because it's uncomfortable. Hopefully our younger citizens will do better discussing racial issues than us older folks.
What would be the end game of any discussions? Reparations?
You don't get it do you.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 12:08:54 GMT -5
I find the different perspectives here based upon a poster's race interesting. I am unable to know what it is like to be black American in America or arrogant enough to dismiss their past and present views, concerns and experiences as simply whining about the past. More than one poster on the P&M board's Trayvon Martin thread has stated the American Civil war ended over 160 years ago and black Americans need to "get over it". We need a national, frank discussion in our country on race and few non-blacks seem to want to have it because it's uncomfortable. Hopefully our younger citizens will do better discussing racial issues than us older folks.
What would be the end game of any discussions? Reparations?
Acknowledgement, understanding, common ground... White, male privilege exists. I would not have believed it until I lived it, but it is there no matter how much we swear we have evolved.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 12:09:55 GMT -5
Sure he is, but that responsibility doesn't extend to the point of being guilty for murder. People die in car accidents every day. Someone is responsible for the cause of those accidents. Following to closely, not seeing a signal, rushing a yellow light, missing a car in a blind spot. Sure you can use hindsight and say if they had just done X the accident wouldn't have happened. But that doesn't make the drivers guilty of murder. When someone knowingly breaks the law by drinking and driving, note they are breaking the law first which then leads to the death, they get manslaughter. Which is why I say yes, if GZ broke the law first then I would say guilty of manslaughter. But sometimes terrible accidents happen, even if they are caused by stupid choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:10:02 GMT -5
What would be the end game of any discussions? Reparations?
You don't get it do you. I wouldn't get any reparations, I'm not black.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 14, 2013 12:10:29 GMT -5
Tex, who the fuck cares that Martin was suspended from school? That doesn't have jack shit to do with the facts of the case. And I think the prosecution did a crap job. They could have done more with what they had. No kidding! That may have been one of the worst presentations I've ever seen!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:13:40 GMT -5
I find the different perspectives here based upon a poster's race interesting. I am unable to know what it is like to be black American in America or arrogant enough to dismiss their past and present views, concerns and experiences as simply whining about the past. More than one poster on the P&M board's Trayvon Martin thread has stated the American Civil war ended over 160 years ago and black Americans need to "get over it". We need a national, frank discussion in our country on race and few non-blacks seem to want to have it because it's uncomfortable. Hopefully our younger citizens will do better discussing racial issues than us older folks. I think it's interesting too. I engaged in a few discussions about race issues back when I was silly enough to post on the old P&M boards. It was easy to dismiss my experiences and views because I was the only one speaking from that place, so I learned to not engage. I only engaged in this thread because like I said before, I have a teenage son. And I'm trying to understand what Trayvon did that night that was so suspicious that Zimmerman actually got out of his vehicle to follow him. I'm trying to understand why it's preposterous that Trayvon might have perceived Zimmerman following him as a threat to his life, which it turned out, he was. I don't understand why it was on Trayvon to be respectful and submissive to a strange man that got out of his car to follow him on foot. It could have been a murderer following him. Oh that's right............ the man that followed him did kill him. This could so easily be my son and it's damn scary.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 12:13:48 GMT -5
What would be the end game of any discussions? Reparations?
Acknowledgement, understanding, common ground... White, male privilege exists. I would not have believed it until I lived it, but it is there no matter how much we swear we have evolved.
And when they say that they need reparations to give them a hand out of systemic poverty, do you pay for the sins of "your grandfather"?
Think it through to the end game. This is important. Everyone sits down, acknowledges the past, agrees there is still racism today, and then what?? Problem solved? No, then reparations will come up. That is the end game.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 12:14:09 GMT -5
No but an understanding on how we can stop current bad choices and assumptions from causing issues in the future. But I think both sides need to take responsibility. DH and I have lots of talks about raising the girls and sometimes race comes into that, ideas, beliefs, what is considered normal, what should be normal.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 14, 2013 12:15:50 GMT -5
I know I'm going to regret asking this, but, "How so?" Is there any evidence other than the very likely exaggerated, certainly self-serving story of George Zimmerman to indicate such?
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 12:16:47 GMT -5
Sometimes not understanding something causes the fear of it. By understanding we can take away the fear. Take away the fear hopefully less stupid choices will be made.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 14, 2013 12:19:29 GMT -5
I don't think this was KNOWN. I think there were too many unknowns for a guilty verdict.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 14, 2013 12:21:33 GMT -5
Acknowledgement, understanding, common ground... White, male privilege exists. I would not have believed it until I lived it, but it is there no matter how much we swear we have evolved.
And when they say that they need reparations to give them a hand out of systemic poverty, do you pay for the sins of "your grandfather"?
Think it through to the end game. This is important. Everyone sits down, acknowledges the past, agrees there is still racism today, and then what?? Problem solved? No, then reparations will come up. That is the end game.
There isn't anyway to make reparations for what happened 100's of years ago. But we can stop thinking that black kids in hoodies are a threat by their mere existence.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 14, 2013 12:21:49 GMT -5
My attitude is that people were going to be displeased with either verdict.
MMC's point about applying this situation to one's own neighborhood watch is interesting and timely for me. Its summer now, and kids have more free time. We have seen an uptick in suspicious late night teen behavior. Avoidance isn't always possible. One couple was out walking their dogs on their own street, where the kids happened to be going at it.
Of course none of us own guns, so hopefully the worst won't happen. Of course I'm more of a sword guy myself. Perhaps I'll do my patrols carrying a samurai sword, or a bad ass zweihander.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 14, 2013 12:25:17 GMT -5
Just remember this: If the REAL police come, put the sword DOWN when they tell you to. I've read three or four news reports where they shot sword-wielding persons for NOT putting the sword down....
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