NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2013 10:39:22 GMT -5
Americans are also sometimes not well versed in subtleties and bribes that take place in other countries and react indignantly to extortion, when you really should just quietly pay your $5 and move on with your life
I've never experienced this personally but you'd think that would be common sense. It's $5, let it go is it REALLY worth seeing what will happen if you don't pay?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 2, 2013 10:44:19 GMT -5
Well, whenever I get around to heading to Europe or Australia or wherever else I plan on traveling, I'll let you know if I manage to come back in one piece. Judging from the responses here, you're taking your life in your own hands whenever you leave America. Hey - you questioned why it was done (representing as something other than American), and you got the answer. You don't like the answer, but you got it. And the reality is - you take your own life into your own hands every day no matter where you go. Safety is an illusion we create in our daily lives so we can function. America is no safer than most other places in the world. If you don't believe that, then you do indeed live in an insular world. How many Europeans and Japanese get actively told by tour companies not to travel in certain places in America because they are not "safe"? And Americans live and work there every day of their lives . . . You're sending mixed messages. First you say you are in danger if you travel abroad as an American, then you turn around and say "well, you're no safer here either." So which is it?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 2, 2013 10:55:19 GMT -5
And, even though the US is pretty pro Israel? The rest of the world is not. If you hear some of the facts, you may not be anymore. I've found it's not so much the people as the "our media presents it this way so this is the truth" attitude that most Americans have (even subconsciously) that is why people are anti American. Once they realize that I am saying "this is what I've learned but I'm sure I only know one side so I'm backing out of this discussion without saying one side is right and one side is wrong" is when I find that they don't care. My best example of this is a simple question that everyone believes they know the answer to: how many continents are there? for the bold, I can't begin to tell you the arguments I've gotten into......gah! for the rest, absolutely!!!! Why are you getting into political debates on travel? When I travel, I either go on vacation, or for work. Either way, I don't go to engage the locals in political debates. I don't really discuss religion or politics anywhere except on this message board, so I wouldn't start if I traveled abroad. If someone tried to engage me on the subject of Israel, the Iraq war, or whatever, I'd likely just feign ignorance/apathy.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 2, 2013 11:01:22 GMT -5
When I traveled in Europe in the early 90's, I never advertised my nationality, but hardly anybody thought I was anything but an American. I kept quiet, was apologetic for ignorance of the language, and certainly didn't expect American level service anywhere. One guy told me it was because I didn't smoke and I've heard that European women generally don't wear glasses.
Occasionally somebody would go on a rant about American policy, and I would just listen and let it pass over. I was smart enough to know that I didn't know that much and that listening was the best way to expand my horizons.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 2, 2013 11:03:08 GMT -5
Well, whenever I get around to heading to Europe or Australia or wherever else I plan on traveling, I'll let you know if I manage to come back in one piece. Judging from the responses here, you're taking your life in your own hands whenever you leave America. Did you fail to read Athena's responses, Phoenix? Yes, I did. And Athena's response seems to be more in lined with what I was thinking. Which is that if you're respectful and low key, you don't need to hide your identity. And that someone can travel as an American without getting killed, kidnapped, shanked, or whatever it is Chiver and Kittensaver are worried about. Obviously several members of this message board have traveled as Americans, not hid their identity, and lived to tell the tale. So something tells me I can too.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 2, 2013 11:04:16 GMT -5
My friend and his kids and father just got back from Finland and some other countries. Yes, they pretended they were Canadian. I hadn't realized things had gotten that bad, but, yes, we are hated, even thought they gladly take our money and troops.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2013 11:06:18 GMT -5
certainly didn't expect American level service
I got better service in Malayasia. It was so nice to not have a server in my face ALL THE TIME. Meals are supposed to be a peaceful, social time over there. There is no rushing to get me out so they can turn over the table, no constant "how is everything?" and the check didn't come till I asked for it. It was awesome. People take pride in service over there, none of it was fake in the hopes of suckering me out of a bigger tip. They are horrified at the idea of taking a tip, making my meal pleasurable is enough. Other people in the group thought the service was terrible. I didn't realize how obnoxious the American service industry is till I left it and came back.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jul 2, 2013 11:07:06 GMT -5
Did you fail to read Athena's responses, Phoenix? Yes, I did. And Athena's response seems to be more in lined with what I was thinking. Which is that if you're respectful and low key, you don't need to hide your identity. And that someone can travel as an American without getting killed, kidnapped, shanked, or whatever it is Chiver and Kittensaver are worried about. Obviously several members of this message board have traveled as Americans, not hid their identity, and lived to tell the tale. So something tells me I can too. It's not all blood and kidnapping. I got high-fived more times than I can count when traveling in South America after Obama was elected (the first time) once they found out I was American. I think that helped change a lot of people's opinions of the US, at least partially. Times were different when Bush was in office and before...
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 2, 2013 11:07:21 GMT -5
for the bold, I can't begin to tell you the arguments I've gotten into......gah! for the rest, absolutely!!!! Why are you getting into political debates on travel? When I travel, I either go on vacation, or for work. Either way, I don't go to engage the locals in political debates. I don't really discuss religion or politics anywhere except on this message board, so I wouldn't start if I traveled abroad. If someone tried to engage me on the subject of Israel, the Iraq war, or whatever, I'd likely just feign ignorance/apathy. I never said I did - I'm talking about the arguments here at home about that topic....usually with people who have never left this country.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 2, 2013 11:07:28 GMT -5
I don't think Souldoubt's post can be over-valued in this thread.
Anti-American wackos are not bound by geographic borders. They travel just as much as Americans do--maybe even more so. London, for example, is now a bigger, more varied melting pot than any city in America is. So don't assume that when you travel to a "safe", even English-speaking, country that you will only find natives or not find anti-American sentiment.
I am eligible for a dual citizenship. I have often considered going for it. The only thingsthat prevent me from doing do are a current lack of international travel and an obligation to the brave military folks who willingly go into some very dangerous places so that I can continue to live in a free America. Otherwise, while I want to show my kids the world, you can be damn sure I feel absolutely obligated to do so as safely for them as possible so dual citizenship is not entirely off the table for me.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 2, 2013 11:16:21 GMT -5
Yes, I did. And Athena's response seems to be more in lined with what I was thinking. Which is that if you're respectful and low key, you don't need to hide your identity. And that someone can travel as an American without getting killed, kidnapped, shanked, or whatever it is Chiver and Kittensaver are worried about. Obviously several members of this message board have traveled as Americans, not hid their identity, and lived to tell the tale. So something tells me I can too. It's not all blood and kidnapping. I got high-fived more times than I can count when traveling in South America after Obama was elected (the first time) once they found out I was American. I think that helped change a lot of people's opinions of the US, at least partially. Times were different when Bush was in office and before... My aunt and I took a bus trip one night to the nightclubs. We smiled and nodded when several non US people were extolling the virtues of Obama. We happen to disagree but we saw no need to get into a discussion about it. I don't go around discussing politics with just anyone, there is certainly no need to do it in another country!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 2, 2013 11:54:03 GMT -5
Both dude. Both. There are plenty of inner city areas in this country that would be way more dangerous for my lilly white ass to walk through alone than I would be walking around in a foreign country with an American flag t-shirt on.
I was in DC for training while I was in the military and had another guy in my unit and the instructor chew me out pretty good after looking at me like I was batshit crazy when they found out I was walking around alone to check out the local sights and nightlife. The guy from my unit had done a tour in Afghanistan and said he'd rather leave post there alone than be alone and on foot in DC after 11pm.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 2, 2013 11:59:46 GMT -5
Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not "worried" about getting killed, kidnapped etc when I travel. I've traveled safely all over the world, and enjoyed myself immensely immersing myself in other lands, cultures and ways of life. You seem to not be paying attention to what several other people have said: that there are folks all over the world who don't like Americans, and they are not limited to residing in "hostile" countries. You can and will find them everywhere. You will also find wonderful people everywhere - it is truely NOT all "blood and kidnapping" - so please don't intimate that I said it was. You wanted to know why people might choose to passively identify as "other than American," and I and several other people told you why. Okay so you don't like the answer, but ignoring the facts will not change the facts, sorry Most international travelers make plans for staying out of the way of ANY kind of folks who would do them harm (as in, being low key, learning another language, putting the patch of another English-speaking country on their backback, etc etc etc etc.) That doesn't mean they are embarrassed of being American - it just means they understand they are in a foreign country and don't have the rights and protections they are used to (police, fire, military) if someone were to accost them. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't travel - you just shouldn't "wear a target" - whatever that "target" is (loud behaviors, foul language, demands for attention, demands that others speak English to you, making faces or negative comments at local customs) and other negative behaviors (read: "the ugly American") that other folks here have pointed out. And by the way, foreign travel companies teach tourists the same kinds of behaviors for traveling in America! There are incidents every day all over this country of foreign tourists being accosted by thieves and rip-off artists (who are Americans). As to the "safety" issue: you are no safer traveling here in America than you are anywhere else in the world. People can rip you off and otherwise harm you just as much here as anywhere (shootings in American schools and malls, anyone?). Safety is an illusion - an illusion we go to great lengths to surround ourselves with everyday, or we'd all go crazy and couldn't function. But you're absolutely right - one cannot live in fear, and I don't.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 2, 2013 12:15:27 GMT -5
Both dude. Both. There are plenty of inner city areas in this country that would be way more dangerous for my lilly white ass to walk through alone than I would be walking around in a foreign country with an American flag t-shirt on. I was in DC for training while I was in the military and had another guy in my unit and the instructor chew me out pretty good after looking at me like I was batshit crazy when they found out I was walking around alone to check out the local sights and nightlife. The guy from my unit had done a tour in Afghanistan and said he'd rather leave post there alone than be alone and on foot in DC after 11pm. DC has areas in which you won't find my white ass during daylight hours. So does Baltimore!
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 2, 2013 12:18:11 GMT -5
Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not "worried" about getting killed, kidnapped etc when I travel. I've traveled safely all over the world, and enjoyed myself immensely immersing myself in other lands, cultures and ways of life. You seem to not be paying attention to what several other people have said: that there are folks all over the world who don't like Americans, and they are not limited to residing in "hostile" countries. You can and will find them everywhere. You will also find wonderful people everywhere - it is truely NOT all "blood and kidnapping" - so please don't intimate that I said it was. You wanted to know why people might choose to passively identify as "other than American," and I and several other people told you why. Okay so you don't like the answer, but ignoring the facts will not change the facts, sorry Most international travelers make plans for staying out of the way of ANY kind of folks who would do them harm (as in, being low key, learning another language, putting the patch of another English-speaking country on their backback, etc etc etc etc.) That doesn't mean they are embarrassed of being American - it just means they understand they are in a foreign country and don't have the rights and protections they are used to (police, fire, military) if someone were to accost them. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't travel - you just shouldn't "wear a target" - whatever that "target" is (loud behaviors, foul language, demands for attention, demands that others speak English to you, making faces or negative comments at local customs) and other negative behaviors (read: "the ugly American") that other folks here have pointed out. And by the way, foreign travel companies teach tourists the same kinds of behaviors for traveling in America! There are incidents every day all over this country of foreign tourists being accosted by thieves and rip-off artists (who are Americans). As to the "safety" issue: you are no safer traveling here in America than you are anywhere else in the world. People can rip you off and otherwise harm you just as much here as anywhere (shootings in American schools and malls, anyone?). Safety is an illusion - an illusion we go to great lengths to surround ourselves with everyday, or we'd all go crazy and couldn't function. But you're absolutely right - one cannot live in fear, and I don't. exactly this.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 2, 2013 12:19:00 GMT -5
Both dude. Both. There are plenty of inner city areas in this country that would be way more dangerous for my lilly white ass to walk through alone than I would be walking around in a foreign country with an American flag t-shirt on. I was in DC for training while I was in the military and had another guy in my unit and the instructor chew me out pretty good after looking at me like I was batshit crazy when they found out I was walking around alone to check out the local sights and nightlife. The guy from my unit had done a tour in Afghanistan and said he'd rather leave post there alone than be alone and on foot in DC after 11pm. DC has areas in which you won't find my white ass during daylight areas. So does Baltimore! . . . and Watts/Willowbrook in Los Angeles, and south Florida, and Philadephia, and parts of the deep South, and the Bronx in New York, and the Tenderloin in San Francisco, and inner city Detroit, and, and, and, and . . . .
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 2, 2013 12:46:29 GMT -5
"Ignorance and rudeness I could handle. Being threatened, harassed, accosted, assaulted, kidnapped and or injured/killed because I "presented" as American - I could not. And I don't kid myself that it couldn't happen. A lot of the rest of the world really does not like us. I think, Phoenix, you might be shocked at how many people out there in the big wide world would NOT be eager to trade passports with you." Well, I refuse to live my life in fear. That said, I think safety while traveling is a separate topic. If an area I was thinking about traveling to was particularly hostile to Americans I probably would not travel there in the first place. I get that you were responding to a comment about personal safely here, but don't you think you are being wildly overdramatic? No one is asking anyone to "live their life in fear". Some people may choose to be more quiet about their nationality as a sensible and simple precaution, just like locking their doors when they leave the house. This doesn't mean that any American who chooses not to advertise their nationality is a lily-livered, yellow-bellied sniveling pansy cowering in a corner. It may just mean they prefer a hassle-free vacation. Who doesn't?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 2, 2013 12:52:18 GMT -5
Does anyone else find it ironic that to "be safe" in other countries, you must pretend you are NOT American, but when people either immigrate or visit the United States, Americans MUST accommodate them and respect their culture or be considered a bigot? When I traveled in Europe back in the 90's, I never pretended to be anyone but myself. I never ran into a problem, but political correctness and anti-Americanism wasn't all the rage back then. I don't find it ironic because your premise is so completely inaccurate. This is one of the reasons why SOME people think americans are ignorant dumbasses. Do you really believe that all Americans show respect for all foreign cultures? Do you even believe that most Americans show respect for most foreign cultures? Where did you read that anyone was telling Americans they "must" present as Canadian?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jul 2, 2013 12:56:50 GMT -5
It's interestering how sometimes myth and reality don't match up.
When DH and I were in Paris (me for work, him along for vacation) almost everyone was absolutely lovely! Totally busted the stereotype of the rude French.
Of course it may have helped that DH spoke some French and we didn't wear white sneakers...so hopefully we weren't the ugly Americans!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2013 13:02:02 GMT -5
Did you wear a fanny pack? Every book I read said it screams "Tourist, rob me!" Won't they be disappointed when all they find in mine is a wooden spoon?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 2, 2013 13:03:42 GMT -5
It's interestering how sometimes myth and reality don't match up. When DH and I were in Paris (me for work, him along for vacation) almost everyone was absolutely lovely! Totally busted the stereotype of the rude French. Of course it may have helped that DH spoke some French and we didn't wear white sneakers...so hopefully we weren't the ugly Americans! The people in Paris were absolutely lovely to us too. So much for stereotypes. (and PS: there are anti-American insurgents living in Paris. That didn't stop us from going there . . . )
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 2, 2013 13:08:22 GMT -5
HoneyBBQ,
I'm inclined to agree with gardening grandma in that anywhere in the world, including the U.S can be dangerous. Misrepresenting yourself as Canadian is not the same as being "low key" or a "smart traveler."
Anyways, it's a shame you have such a low opinion of your own countrymen, being "loud," "dumb," and "rich." If that is truely the case, I don't know how you stand it here. Don't you find it a bit ironic to be complaining about American arrogence then go on to say how everyone else in the country (besides you) is loud, dumb, and rich? Seems to me if you're worried about arrogent Americans, you should start by looking in the mirror.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2013 13:23:03 GMT -5
We've created the stereotype. I was shocked and saddened by how quite a few people in my group of 30 behaved. We were all Americans and for some people we were their first encounter with American tourists. I'm sure they left a wonderful impression. But every country has it's tourist stereotype. When I think "Japanese tourst" I picture a bunch of people dressed the same with umbrellas clicking cameras like the paparazzi. Is EVERY person from Japan traveling like that? No but I've seen enough like that to form a mental picture. So if someone wants to avoid the stereotype and the hassle that can come with it I can see claiming you're from someplace else. Apparently I could pass for Australian if I wanted to, that's where people kept assuming I was from. I didn't have to correct them.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jul 2, 2013 15:40:53 GMT -5
HoneyBBQ, I'm inclined to agree with gardening grandma in that anywhere in the world, including the U.S can be dangerous. Misrepresenting yourself as Canadian is not the same as being "low key" or a "smart traveler." Anyways, it's a shame you have such a low opinion of your own countrymen, being "loud," "dumb," and "rich." If that is truely the case, I don't know how you stand it here. Don't you find it a bit ironic to be complaining about American arrogence then go on to say how everyone else in the country (besides you) is loud, dumb, and rich? Seems to me if you're worried about arrogent Americans, you should start by looking in the mirror. LOL. You must not get out much. Americans are loud, dumb, and rich, collectively, and in general. I also said that there are bad people everywhere. But there are more bad people looking out for AMERICANS in places other than in the US and Canada. I find it difficult to believe you have a such a strong opinion when you haven't been out to these places yourself and seen the behavior of your compatriots. I am not loud and dumb, but am I definitely rich compared to the standard of living of the places I go. Some countries in South America live on less than $500 a year per a household. So yeah, I guess I am arrogant? I don't get your point at all.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jul 2, 2013 16:23:25 GMT -5
Would you pretend you're Canadian when you travel abroad?
No, but I pretend I'm Canadian when I'm making fun of Canadians. "Look at me! I'm a Canadian! Aboot, hockey sticks, and so on."
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 2, 2013 16:32:48 GMT -5
"I also said that there are bad people everywhere. But there are more bad people looking out for AMERICANS in places other than in the US and Canada."
Exactly mine and several other people's point, too - thanks for putting it this way honeybbq! Too bad he's not listening/doesn't want to hear. It has nothing to do with "being a proud American" or "living in fear when you travel." It's about recognizing the reality of the world around you and acting accordingly. And if that means low-key/passively passing off as something other than American in order to avoid unwanted attention or avoid attracting persons with evil intent toward you merely because of your nationality, I say go for it - no issue here. YMMV. "I find it difficult to believe you have a such a strong opinion when you haven't been out to these places yourself and seen the behavior of your compatriots." Again, exactly. Thank you. The whole "I'm a proud American and if those folks don't like me I'm staying home and they're not getting my hard-earned dollars" (although in fairness I think it was Shooby that said something like this, not Phoenix) is exactly the kind of attitude that borders on the "oblivious American" or "ugly American syndrome" we've all been trying to point out to Phoenix. Phoenix - it's time for you to open your mind and your horizons and get out and see the world! "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindeness." ~ Mark Twain
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 2, 2013 16:57:14 GMT -5
Pheonix, what I found in Europe is that they have a different attitude towards customer service. Most folks in customer service positions are grouchy. And that along with different customs and the hassles of traveling can make unprepared American tourists a bit testy and come off as loud, arrogant and ignorant. That's all.
Funny story, when I was in Europe, Asian tourists were always handing me their cameras for group shots. No hello, no asking me if it is ok. One would just walk up to me, hand me the camera, and then stand in front of some landmark with his or her friends waiting for me to snap a picture. I can't for the life of me figure out what made them think I was the person for the job.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 2, 2013 17:06:01 GMT -5
"Phoenix - it's time for you to open your mind and your horizons and get out and see the world! " Well, I intend to "someday." It's only been fairly recently I've gotten enough leave at work and the disposable income to travel. I don't know if you've seen the price of international flights, but you guys who travel a lot internationally must be making bank to consistantly afford that. Plus there's the leave situation. If I'm going to spend $4k or more on a flight, I'm going to want to spend as much time there as I can. Right now, I'm getting into the groove of planning trips myself, so I'll eventually work my way up to big international trips. But it is kind of patronizing for you guys to keep dismissing my opinion because I haven't been able to afford international travel like you have. One thing is for sure though, I will NOT be pretending to be Canadian (or any other nationality besides American). I will read up on customs and try to learn some basic phrases in the local languages. I will NOT engage in any sort of political discussion. And in general, try to stay low key. My parents have done a fair amount of travel internationally, and I'm aware that bribes are par for the course in many places in the world.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 2, 2013 17:31:56 GMT -5
I have done a fair bit of international travel and I have never displayed myself as any other nationality other than American. I can't ever remember it being an issue any place I've been. I also tend to be rather low key and try not to draw attention to myself, but this is just the way I am regardless of where I am at.
I can only remember one incident where I did see the 'ugly American' in my travels and I really wanted to slink into the woodwork. I was in a little artisan silver shop on Paros and had just negotiated for a silver mirror. An American couple came into the store and were rather obnoxious about negotiating price. They seemed to think that just because they were paying with $$ rather than drachmas, that that should give them a better deal, and I thought that they were rather rude about it...especially after the shop owner explained to them (in English) that he had to pay to exchange their money so him receiving $$ was NOT a benefit to him.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 2, 2013 17:44:14 GMT -5
ugh....I'd have tried to blend in with the woodwork too, Mich. it sucks, but that's exactly the ugly American - the entitled loudmouth, by and large. Phoenix, I apologize if what I've said comes across as patronizing, but it's incredibly frustrating that you dismiss all of our travel experiences that don't fit your view of how the world *should* be, right out of the gate. you are open about not having travelled yourself, so I have to ask what makes you think that you know how the rest of the world is, if you haven't gone out and seen any of it?
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