Kids Who Hit Other Kids...

[milee]

On the abuse thread, the topic of kids who hit other kids came up.  Instead of derailing that thread, this is a separate place to talk about this issue. 

It's embarrassing, but my older son had huge issues with anger management and impulse control when he was a younger guy.  He wasn't a bully in that he didn't target or pick at other kids, but he did not control himself well and if there was any dispute or he was frustrated, he sometimes hit.  Obviously not OK.  We worked on these issues with him for years past when it felt normal to be working on those issues, and he's a great kid now (just turned 13 and hasn't had these problems for years), but it was a long, hard road for the kids around him, him and us.  A couple of the people on the other thread asked how we worked with him and how long it took.  Here are some of the things I remember:

-  From when he was 2 on, we couldn't tell if it was normal boy stuff or not, but he hit others more than we were comfortable with and seemed to struggle to control his temper.  We actively started working on it by increasing the amount of talking and modeling we did.  We also selected a preschool that emphasized behavior skills and kindness as the central teaching, even though DH and I are nerds and would have liked a more academic focus, that wasn't what T needed most.  So, there we were with all the hippies, throwing ourselves into learning to tie die and parking our Mercedes next to the VW Vanagon; we didn't blend, but did our best because that's what our son needed.  (Shades of Little Miss Sunshine where they all get up and dance with her.)

-  Also, it didn't seem fair to risk other kids being hit, so in situations where I thought T might be frustrated and not have full control, one of us would go with him to help monitor, soothe, guide, teach, whatever.  That's how I ended up being a Sunday School teacher for 3 years even though I'm not all that religious and chaperoning many of the field trips.  If it was another child's party and looked like a situation where there would be an issue, we didn't and run but stayed to closely supervise.  So not my natural parenting inclination, but that's what he needed.

-  We examined what was going on in our house.  Although DH and I do not argue in front of the children ever and rarely raise our voice (we're quiet nerds), we also didn't ever talk about feelings.  So we realized that T wasn't seeing any active modeling of people handling their feelings.  It was awkward, but we started making an effort to talk things through so T could absorb how we handled anger and frustration.  Example - In the past, I might have just sighed and not said anything if I came out into the parking lot and found a ding in my car door, now I'd say in a calm but sad voice, "Wow, that was very rude of that person to hit my door.  I'm sad that my car has a dent and it's frustrating that this person didn't leave a note.  They weren't nice.  I'm not happy."  Then he could see that I handled those things by talking rationally, not physically acting out and not totally ignoring them either.  DH and I made more effort to talk through feelings at home about things as well.  Over time T seemed to have more ability to talk about feelings instead of just blow up.

-  Although it was embarrassing as heck and totally sucked, we were always up front with the teachers and worked closely with them to have the same system at home and school.  From the beginning, we'd tell them what issues T was working on and let them know we wanted to be partners in solving issues.  If the teachers saw a problem, they'd let us know and at home we'd reinforce what the teacher said/did.  In return, I think the teachers were extremely helpful in working with T, steering him out of trouble and also being part of the problem solving team.  They could see that he was trying and we were trying.

-  Increase the structure and consequences but at the same time increase the fun and the love.  Over time, we did increase the consequences (isn't that a great word for punishment?) for poor choices to show how serious we considered the situation.  We also greatly increased the love, time spent together and fun stuff, too.  We made it very clear that we love, love, love him more than anything and that we were on his team.  We wanted him to know this was a family effort to solve a problem, not us being disappointed or thinking he was an f'ed up kid.  He needed to feel like he was basically OK and loved and just needed to work on this issue.  Because for him, even though he came across as a tough kid, he's very tender at heart and as soon as he thinks someone dislikes him or that he's screwed up and there's no hope of redeeming it, he doesn't try any more.  We needed him to keep trying.  And he did. 

-  We were honest about things we struggle with to show him that everybody struggles with issues. 

There's probably more that I'll remember, but those were the biggies I can think of off hand. 

[swamp]

((Sends DD to Milee)) 

[milee]

Someone also asked how long it took.  When we were in the middle of it, it seemed like forever. 

But it wasn't.  Although he struggled with hitting other kids for longer than most kids do, that probably stopped around age 7 (when I think most of the other kids probably stopped around 3 or 4.)  He continued to struggle with emotional outbursts until about 8 or 9.  He started to be a really put together kid around 11 or 12 and now at 13, he's honestly one of the nicest teens I know. 


We didn't realize it and were probably in a bit of denial, which didn't help, but he also has the inattentive kind of ADHD.  Diagnosed at 11.  Although by that age, we had worked through most of the behavior issues, he still had major problems with organization, schoolwork and memory.  We did not want to use medication, but finally agreed to a trial for one week.  In that one week period, he went from disorganized, so distracted he'd never reliably been able to repeat his multiplication tables and generally a C student to a straight A student who was able to skip 2 math levels and never again forgot a single assignment.  The medication didn't really change his behavior, but he appeared to be a slightly "older" or more mature version of who he already was.  He says it gives him a second to think things through before reacting, which is a good thing.   

[milee]

Jun 19, 2013 17:10:06 GMT -5 swamp said:

((Sends DD to Milee)) 

[Milee runs away screaming because she's not sure she'd live through all that again.....] 

[sheilaincali]

Milee- Thanks for sharing your experiences.  I really appreciate you sharing.  I'm curious though what were the consequences for poor choices? <br>We didn't have this issue with my son but I have 9 nieces and nephews so I like to ask in the event one of them has similar issues.

[Deleted]

DS has a buddy that had severe biting, hitting and tantrum issues.  They are both four.  For awhile I felt like I should really cut off the relationship since he was abusing DS so badly.  It was tough because they were best friends and this kid really loved DS but then DS was getting abused.  We put some boundaries on it (kids could only get together at a house or park, there could be no other children there, we'd leave at the first sign of issues) and DS' buddy went to therapy.  Now things are much better and we're glad we stuck with it.

One of the problems, from my perspective, is that DS' buddy is too damn smart.   He was worrying about things that other kids his age couldn't even conceptualize - that if his dad didn't go to work there would be less money for the house and food.  It's tough to be intellectually far ahead of his emotional development.  DS isn't quite as smart but is very loving so they seem to go well together.

Kudos to you for getting your DS the help he needs - it's really hard for a parent to admit a problem and seek help.

I've been taking Ritalin the last few months since I was diagnosed with inattentive type ADD.  It's night and day.  I wish that the medication had been available to me when I was younger - my life would have been so much smoother in so many ways.

[milee]

Anne, thank goodness T didn't have issues with biting at least.  As for the others, though, he sure did. 

It's interesting you talk about the friend worrying about things other kids couldn't conceptualize.  One of my vivid memories of T was when he was 3 and I asked him, "You're turning 4 in just a few weeks.  What would you like for your birthday?"  He was very quiet for a while thinking.  After a few minutes, a tear rolled down his cheek and he said he'd like some of the things he was going to need for when he was an adult.  I didn't understand what he meant and asked him to explain.  He said, "You know, dishes and stuff like that.  I'll need that when I'm big.  If I start saving it now I'll have it for when I grow up and move out."  I about cried for him - an almost 4 year old worrying about things like that is way too much.

It can be very hard for smart kids when they're little.

[swamp]

It can be very hard for smart kids when they're little

I'm finding that with DD. her emotions are not matching her cognitive abilities and she can't deal with it and melts down. 

[milee]

Sheila, maybe I'm a really mean mom, but I think the consequences are most effective if they're tailored to the individual child. 

Gotta find what s/he loves best - could be a thing or could be doing an activity - and use that.  For small issues, you use smaller consequences, for bigger issues you use bigger consequences.

The biggest consequence we ever gave was making him sleep in the garage after being very, very disrespectful to us when he was 10 or 11.  It's OK to disagree, but it's not OK to yell or call me names.  I explained that if he couldn't control himself and was disrespectful to me, he could not sleep under my roof.  He continued the disrespect, so I put a blanket and pillow in the garage, which is where he slept.  We live in Florida, so it was hot, dusty and nasty, but not dangerous to be out there.  He got to come back in when he apologized.  That was probably the last and biggest consequence.  He hasn't had an outburst like that in a while.

[milee]

Jun 19, 2013 17:59:09 GMT -5 swamp said:

It can be very hard for smart kids when they're little

I'm finding that with DD. her emotions are not matching her cognitive abilities and she can't deal with it and melts down. 

Yes.  With T, it was like he was intellectually 3-4 years beyond his age and emotionally 3-4 years less than his age.  Awful. 

Be patient with her and don't be hard on yourself.  It will get better. 

[Deleted]

It can be very hard for smart kids when they're little.

Q (that's what I'm going to call him) is very, very smart.  His dad is an engineer and his mom isn't a slacker either.  He's expressed weird worries from the time he was old enough to communicate them.  Q has expressed fear of being an adult and living without his parents.  I think his intelligence is way ahead of his self-control and that makes his struggles much, much harder. People seem to expect that because he wrote, read, and did math faster than the other kids his age that his self-control should be much better.  Instead it's been the opposite - his intelligence has fed the common fears and anxiety that kids his age have.

DS isn't afraid of mommy and daddy dying because he doesn't even know what that means.  Q gets that dying means that he will never see his parents again.  It's tough.

[swamp]

OMG!!! That's it!!! I feel like she's emotionally 2 but cognitively 8. With the attitude of a 15 year old. Please beer me strength. 

[Deleted]

I should add that DS has learned a lot from their interaction as well.  DS goes to a Montessori school that is very touchy-feely - when you hurt someone else you hug to make up for it.  Q has sensory processing issues.  He only likes to be touched on his own terms or else he'll get overwhelmed. When they fought DS used to hug Q and make the whole situation worse.  Now DS is learning that people have different rules regarding hugging, hand holding and apologies.  I think that it is a good thing for DS to be aware that some people need to be asked before they are hugged or hold hands.

[thyme4change]

Although DH and I do not argue in front of the children ever and rarely raise our voice (we're quiet nerds), we also didn't ever talk about feelings. So we realized that T wasn't seeing any active modeling of people handling their feelings. It was awkward, but we started making an effort to talk things through so DH could absorb how we handled anger and frustration. Example - In the past, I might have just sighed and not said anything if I came out into the parking lot and found a ding in my car door, now I'd say in a calm but sad voice, "Wow, that was very rude of that person to hit my door. I'm sad that my car has a dent and it's frustrating that this person didn't leave a note. They weren't nice. I'm not happy." Then he could see that I handled those things by talking rationally, not physically acting out and not totally ignoring them either. DH and I made more effort to talk through feelings at home about things as well. Over time T seemed to have more ability to talk about feelings instead of just blow up.

<br><br>I bet this would have helped me a lot.  My parents keep things to themselves.  You know, it isn't polite to talk about your feelings.  So, I had no acceptable outlet to express myself, and was never shown the skills to do so.  That only made me angrier.  

[sheilaincali]

milee-  I think you are right to tailor the consequence to the kid.  My sister and brother both have serious problems with follow through.  One time my sister was complaining about my niece's behavior and I scolded my sister and said that it was because there was never a consequence with a follow through. 
 Her kids love playing on their parents' ipads so when they act up they are grounded from the iPads for a length of time.  That seems to be working right now. 

[raeoflyte]

Thank you Milee. Lots of good thoughts that I keep re-reading. My brain isn't working well enough to post a coherent reply tonight though.

[Jaguar]

Milee I like what you posted in this whole thread, very thoughtful and mindful.

[Deleted]

Sigh. I did evals today and think I ended up much more aggressive with a mom than I usually am. She has one of those emotionally behind, intellectually ahead, probably on the spectrum if identified, kids, and I'm worried about some of her homeschool choices... I need to revisit when I'm not so busy so I can be more helpful.

[milee]

Thanks, everybody for being supportive and not judgmental. 

[milee]

Thought of a few more things that were helpful:

Tae Kwon Do - Yes, it sounds counterintuitive to put a kid who hits into a program that sounds like it encourages kids to hit each other, but TKD isn't about hitting each other - it's about respect, discipline and self-control, which were exactly what T needed.  The combination of plyometric exercises to release excess energy and the structured discipline in TKD has been really wonderful for T.  He's thrived and done so well, they've asked him to be an instructor.  Being an instructor has been even better.  He's learned empathy, kindness and most importantly to think about others.  Can't say enough about how good TKD has been for T.  My DH has a friend who disparages TKD, talking about how TKD fighters get creamed in cage matches; he's missing the point.  We don't want to train the next Ultimate Fighter, we want to put him in an environment of respect and self-control.  And we drive 30 minutes and past several closer martial arts places to go to a TKD organization that has the right atmosphere and instructors.

Empathy - Remembering how hard it is for him sometimes makes it easier to be patient when it's otherwise incredibly frustrating.

Breaks - When either of us gets overwhelmed and frustrated with dealing with a situation (T is incredibly strong willed and some of the issues in the past could go on for hours), DH and I tag team.  The other watches for signs of frustration or loss of patience and steps in so the fried parent can take a break.  Can't emphasize enough how helpful this is. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Thanks milee.  I appreciate this more than I can say. 

[raeoflyte]

Jun 19, 2013 17:07:09 GMT -5 milee said:

-  We examined what was going on in our house.  Although DH and I do not argue in front of the children ever and rarely raise our voice (we're quiet nerds), we also didn't ever talk about feelings.  So we realized that T wasn't seeing any active modeling of people handling their feelings.  It was awkward, but we started making an effort to talk things through so T could absorb how we handled anger and frustration.  Example - In the past, I might have just sighed and not said anything if I came out into the parking lot and found a ding in my car door, now I'd say in a calm but sad voice, "Wow, that was very rude of that person to hit my door.  I'm sad that my car has a dent and it's frustrating that this person didn't leave a note.  They weren't nice.  I'm not happy."  Then he could see that I handled those things by talking rationally, not physically acting out and not totally ignoring them either.  DH and I made more effort to talk through feelings at home about things as well.  Over time T seemed to have more ability to talk about feelings instead of just blow up.


-  Increase the structure and consequences but at the same time increase the fun and the love.  Over time, we did increase the consequences (isn't that a great word for punishment?) for poor choices to show how serious we considered the situation.  We also greatly increased the love, time spent together and fun stuff, too.  We made it very clear that we love, love, love him more than anything and that we were on his team.  We wanted him to know this was a family effort to solve a problem, not us being disappointed or thinking he was an f'ed up kid.  He needed to feel like he was basically OK and loved and just needed to work on this issue.  Because for him, even though he came across as a tough kid, he's very tender at heart and as soon as he thinks someone dislikes him or that he's screwed up and there's no hope of redeeming it, he doesn't try any more.  We needed him to keep trying.  And he did. 

-  We were honest about things we struggle with to show him that everybody struggles with issues. 

These are the parts that stick out at me the most right now that we need to work on in our house.

Without a lot of boring details, let's just say there is a lot of tension in our house that ds picks up right now. Dh and I know the cause of it, so as far as he and I go its manageable, but it can't be easy for ds.

The kid is so empathetic, but gets completely lost in his own feelings and can't pull himself out of a tantrum. I think talking about how we are feeling without getting into the why's might help him.

[milee]

Jun 20, 2013 8:06:47 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Thanks milee.  I appreciate this more than I can say. 

[sheilaincali]

Milee is right about the Tae Kwon Do.  I took it in high school and my son took it when he was younger.  It was amazing to see how good the instructor was with the kids.  It actually became fairly common for him to get ADHD kids in his classes.  I overheard moms talking on more than one occasion about what a difference it made in their kids.  At the younger ages the didn't focus on the sparing. 
Instead it was more about learning the rules, the tenants of TKD, their pattern and respect.  The older students would test for belts later in the day so we would have to sit and watch the kids do their level testing.
The would all sit down at attention (legs crossed, hands on their knees, backs straight) and get quizzed by the instructor.  He would put them on the spot and ask them "have you been helping at home?" and after the kid answered he'd yell out to the parent in the audience "Has he really been helping?".  They'd ask them about getting along with their siblings, doing their homework, respecting their parents and teachers, etc.  When they admitted to maybe not doing their homework or something the instructor would gently chastise them and remind them that good grades were part of the package and that they had to put forth their best effort in all aspects of their life.

Then they'd get into demonstrating their pattern (routine of movements specific to their belt level) and the breaking the board part.

It really was quite impressive.  Of course a lot of that depends on the instructor and the instructor I had was amazing and the instructor my son had was a former student with me that was a black belt that bought my instructor out after training under him for years.  Both of them were amazing with kids. 

[milee]

Jun 20, 2013 8:30:43 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jun 19, 2013 17:07:09 GMT -5 milee said:

These are the parts that stick out at me the most right now that we need to work on in our house.

Without a lot of boring details, let's just say there is a lot of tension in our house that ds picks up right now. Dh and I know the cause of it, so as far as he and I go its manageable, but it can't be easy for ds.

The kid is so empathetic, but gets completely lost in his own feelings and can't pull himself out of a tantrum. I think talking about how we are feeling without getting into the why's might help him.

Tantrums are the worst.  Our family still recalls one epic tantrum T had, which we call "The Nordstrom Elevator Incident."  We laugh now, but it wasn't funny at all then and even for a few years after it.

That was 10 years ago and the Nordstrom in Scottsdale Fashion Square still probably has our picture posted in the Permanently Banned from the Store warning display. 


(Shout out to Nordstrom's - it's funny to joke that we were banned, but not only were we not banned but the Nordstrom employees were incredibly gracious to us in what was a horrible time for us and was not doing their store or shoppers any favors, either.)

[Deleted]

This has been very helpful, can't wait to pass on some ideas. Thank you for sharing.

[thyme4change]

That was 10 years ago and the Nordstrom in Scottsdale Fashion Square still probably has our picture posted in the Permanently Banned from the Store warning display.

LOL - And Nordstroms in Fashion Square would be the worst place for your kid to have a tantrum.  With all those snotty Scottsdale people.  Throw a tantrum in Fiesta or MetroCenter, no one cares.  But Fashion Square?  Those people look down at others for a living!

[raeoflyte]

I'll look into tae kwon do also.

And maybe I have a kid who does have to eat every 2 hours? Idk. I just feel awful for him when he isn't even upset about the incident anymore but can't pull himself together. Weve practiced breathing exercises, and squeezing fingers, and let's talk about what made us sad and how to move on, but in the (sometimes hour long) moment non of that can get through to him.

And the walk of shame out of the rec center is certainly getting old. (Lots of crying because whatever activity is over or heaven forbid we wash his hair after swimming...)

[milee]

Jun 20, 2013 10:10:35 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

That was 10 years ago and the Nordstrom in Scottsdale Fashion Square still probably has our picture posted in the Permanently Banned from the Store warning display.

LOL - And Nordstroms in Fashion Square would be the worst place for your kid to have a tantrum.  With all those snotty Scottsdale people.  Throw a tantrum in Fiesta or MetroCenter, no one cares.  But Fashion Square?  Those people look down at others for a living!

Yep.  Not only that, but it is (or was then anyway) all marble floors and walls, so the shrieks of your child can echo throughout the place... 

[973beachbum]

Jun 20, 2013 10:13:09 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I'll look into tae kwon do also.

And maybe I have a kid who does have to eat every 2 hours? Idk. I just feel awful for him when he isn't even upset about the incident anymore but can't pull himself together. Weve practiced breathing exercises, and squeezing fingers, and let's talk about what made us sad and how to move on, but in the (sometimes hour long) moment non of that can get through to him.

And the walk of shame out of the rec center is certainly getting old. (Lots of crying because whatever activity is over or heaven forbid we wash his hair after swimming...)

I know it is going to sound strange but have you tried ignoring it?

some kids cry when they get the least emotional just like some kids hit or throw tantrums even if the incedent didn't trigger some deep emotional issue with them.  My son tends to cry even when he isn't really upset.  We used to try and get him to tell us what he was sad about and he would insist he wasn't said that sometimes he would just cry anyway.  All the bugging him to say why he was sad actually made it ten times worse.  Now we just ask if he is okay and if he says yes we take him at his word.  he seems to be able to stop it much easier if he doesn't feel pressured.  Just a thought.