swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 19, 2013 10:43:16 GMT -5
I think you're right. I don't think Paterno was a bad guy, or that he wanted to hurt kids. I think he just didn't understand and nobody sat him down and spelled it out to him.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 19, 2013 10:45:58 GMT -5
...::: To ME, the best 'win' would be to remove all future abuse opportunities from the ABUSER. Maybe that's where we are at an impasse? :::...
Perfectly acceptable goal and you are welcome to use yourself as bait to achieve this end. The problem comes in when you are talking about using a child as bait to achieve your goal.
You don't need a sting to protect a child, you need to remove the child from the situation. If the situation is serious enough that your suspicion is strong enough to warrant a sting, then you need to remove the child no matter what the social consequences are to you. Your family doesn't like it? Tough. You aren't able to use Uncle Ed or Grandma to babysit? Tough. You do what you need to do to protect that child. I'd happily sign up for this, I really would. So you'd happily agree to be raped as long as it was videotaped so the perp would go to jail for decades? Do you roam the streets at night half naked with a camera?
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 10:47:48 GMT -5
I would report it right away and let the people qualified sort the mess out. I previously had an "it's not my place to get involved since it isn't my kid" attitude. I am ashamed that I didn't speak up when I should have. My ex-SIL found out that her daughter (my niece) was being abused by the girl's older cousin (on the mom's side, not on my family's side). He was 12 and she was 4. He was touching her inappropriately and she told her mom after that her "bottom hurt where B was touching her" My exSIL told her daycare provider the next day to be let her know if the niece complained about any more pain since she had been touched by her cousin. As a mandated reporter the DCP called the cops. They took statements, pulled B out of class at school and had a long discussion with him. They put my niece in therapy and within probably 6 weeks it had all blown over B claimed he would never do it again so my exSIL lets him babysit my niece and nephew. They all have sleepovers at Grandma's house with grandma and her super creepy boy friend. I had been telling my ex SIL for years that B was being abused by someone. I'd tell her and she'd say she'd look in to it but never did. B is around the same age as my son and had been displaying some strange symptoms. I asked a good friend of mine that was a child psychologist that dealt with troubled and abused kids about B's issue and my friend was 99% positive that someone was abusing this kid. I didn't report it because I was living in CA at the time, they were all back in MN and this was the nephew of my SIL and her entire family hated my family (my folks, my siblings, etc). They thought we were a bunch of rich, snobby people. So me suggesting that B was being abused was not taken kindly. So when everything about my niece came out I asked my ex SIL about B and my concerns that he was being abused and she tells me "oh it's probably D (grandma's creepy boyfriend) doing it. It wouldn't surprise me since molested me when I was a kid". I was so pissed I yelled at her. I asked her why in the world would they let this man continue to be a part of their lives after years of abusing one family member after another! She had no answer. So as it sits now- my niece isn't in therapy anymore and spends a significant part of her week with both her cousin and her gma's creepy boy friend. B claims he would never do it again but recently crash his laptop because he had some many viruses from various porn sites that the repair people told his mom it would be easier to get him a new computer than to remove all the viruses. And every day I wonder if I had reported my concerns years ago would my niece have been spared from being abused. Would B have gotten the help he obviously needed and stopped the cycle. So yeah, from now on my stance is to report it and let the professionals sort it out, because keep quiet didn't do anyone any favors.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 10:49:54 GMT -5
My parents are surprisingly open to discussions of who did what bad thing, even though dad grew up strict Catholic and went to Catholic school
My parents are open to discussion but the way they process information is totally different from me.
To be fair I read how questioning kids is handeled in one of my social science books back in high school. So when I read the affadavit I understood the process that was going on.
They felt they had enough to proceed with a trial. I got in an argument with my mom over how it all works. Then I decided the subject was off limits and I refuse to engage people. I can't unhear what people have said and I don't need my opinion of them changed anymore than it already has been.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 10:52:06 GMT -5
OMG Shelia that is terrible.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 10:57:47 GMT -5
Pisses me off every day.
I'm stuck out here in left field because my mom thinks anything I say about my brother's kids is an insult to his parenting. Hello! He just stands by silently, knowing his daughter is in regular contact with two known abusers.
I told my son what happened and asked him to never be alone in a room with his cousin. Given that family's history I'd hate for my niece to behave inappropriately towards my son or for there to ever be the hint that maybe it was a different cousin that abused her. My dad was pissed that I told my son what had happened to his cousin. But frankly, he was 13 at the time and old enough to understand. To this day if he is at my parents house watching tv in the family room and my niece goes down there to play with toys or something he'll get up and leave the room immediately if he is the only other person in the room with her.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 19, 2013 10:58:22 GMT -5
Yeah, it was what, the early to mid 80s when child abuse (physical) started getting attention. And then sexual abuse a bit after that? We've come a long way in 25 years or so.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 11:01:52 GMT -5
Mid 80's. There was a lot of hysteria surrounding it and they changed the rules on how to question kids after the huge "satanic daycare" scandal in Texas back in the 80's.
People don't get how involved the process really is. I told my mother to read the affadavit and get back to me with her assumptions on how the process works. It's pretty involved and they felt they had enough to go to trial.
If she and her father were just "making up stories" as my MIL puts it then things would have fell apart in questioning.
Whether or not there is enough to convict him I have no clue, time will tell.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 19, 2013 11:15:19 GMT -5
Yeah, I remember that one.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 11:25:41 GMT -5
We had a big blow out in town because the college football coach turned his work phone into the IT department because it was acting up and they found some videos that they felt were of a "questionable nature" and reported it to HR and HR called the cops.
He had a couple of short videos of his three young kids naked. They had finished a bath and he says that they asked him to film them while they did a song and dance routine. I think the kids were all under the age of 7. At one point the boy grabbed his penis and in the dad's words "played it like a guitar" but the cops felt the boy was simulating masturbation.
The administration escorted him off the field and put him immediately on administrative leave and sent him home. He didn't find out why until a couple of days later when the county sheriff showed up with a search warrant and starting hauling out his electronic equipment and searching the house.
He was eventually cleared of the charges but the damage was done. Divided the town. He was given a pity job in the athletics office and eventually fired for a "separate matter". I doubt he will coach again, his wife is a high school guidance counselor so I'm sure it's tarnished her reputation as well.
Many people still believe that he is guilty and those that think he is innocent are screaming about harassment and that the administration was scared of another Football abuse scandal and that they overreacted.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 11:31:58 GMT -5
Bad things can happen to good people, unfortunately. It's really sad when hysteria gets ahold of people. Speaking of child porn though a former supervisor of DH's will be in jail for a long long time. He was opearting a sex ring, from his work computer no less! DH said it was just like the movies. Several guys in black wearing sunglesses came in, hauled him off, took the computer and disappeared. Guy had been the subject of a massive FBI investigator for years.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 11:44:15 GMT -5
The more I read this thread the more common I'm starting to realize that abuse is
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 19, 2013 11:46:18 GMT -5
I'd happily sign up for this, I really would. So you'd happily agree to be raped as long as it was videotaped so the perp would go to jail for decades? Do you roam the streets at night half naked with a camera? I was thinking this same thing this morning. I know I'm not signing up. But then I started wondering how on earth this question came up? It seems like a plot to one of those awful criminal investigation shows. The only time I could see this situation happening is if it was a sibling who had tried to report the abuse and been shut down. Then possibly trying to get proof? But if I were the bait and someone who had the ability to protect me knowingly put me in danger again, I don't think that could be forgiven. Even if done with the best of intentions.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 19, 2013 13:43:46 GMT -5
I think some people are also seriously underestimating the impact this could have on a young child. Just because they likely won't remember it someday doesn't mean it won't affect them now.
DD is only 2 & had been having some problems with a new little boy bullying her at school. It had a huge impact on her & luckily she is vocal enough that she could tell us the problem. She was crying when I dropped her off at school. She was waking up crying during the night. One night she came running out of her room screaming there were monsters, which she had never done anything like before (or since). A few nights she would start crying at bedtime & say she wanted to go to a new school. The boy was only part time, so she didn't even see him that often. The day he came in & she absolutely started sobbing when she saw him the teachers decided that was enough & permanently put them into different classes.
To my knowledge he only hit her the one time and the teachers were very good at keeping him away from her after that. But that memory was seared into her little brain & traumatized her. Sure DD will forget it by the time she is 4, but it did really affect her and I consider being hit by another 2 yr old pretty minor to being abused at the hands of an adult. Although I do wonder if subconsciously it brought up older memories of abuse & that is why she reacted so strongly. If so, then that means that even if they don't conciously remember something it can have a much more lasting impact.
I don't think it is right to intentionally put a child in a traumatizing situation simply because they won't remember someday. Eventually forgetting doesn't mean it won't traumatize them & affect them now.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 13:49:49 GMT -5
Oh poor DD. Glad her teachers took action.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 14:01:37 GMT -5
Angel- I'm sorry your DD had to deal with a bully, especially at such a young age. Glad that the teachers intervened and put them in different classes.
I'm curious- in a case like that in which it's a small child bullying another small child where does that behavior come from? I'm not talking about biting a kid once or what have you but if the kid is a habitual bully. Where do you look to explain that behavior? Nature/Nurture? Is it the parents fault? Other siblings?
One of my nieces was having problems at school because a little girl was pulling a Mean Girl on her. Lexi would get on the bus and M would announce loudly to her posse "Lexi doesn't exist today. Everyone ignore her" and they would. She'd make it so no kids would sit by her at lunch or play with her. My niece wasn't her only victim, she'd do this to random other kids as well. It wasn't an Every Day pick on Lexi but it there was a group of 5 or 6 girls she would do this to.
When my sister complained to the teacher she said that it's become a real problem with girls that have older sisters. That the younger sibling has started lashing out and become a pretty bad bully. She only really saw it in families with girls.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 19, 2013 14:17:05 GMT -5
Poor Lexi, that is awful. I hope the teachers did something about it.
It does make sense that often the behavior is in response to a poor home life. Either they are repeating behavior they see or they are acting out due to stress or unhappiness.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 19, 2013 14:22:57 GMT -5
Oh Angel! Hugs to your DD.
Sheila - Hugs to you.
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genericname
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Post by genericname on Jun 19, 2013 14:37:54 GMT -5
I would never subject a civilian to abuse in an attempt to 'catch a predator'. The number of criminal cases that fall apart because of the actions of a well-intentioned person are too numerous to count. You are taking MORE of a chance on helping the perp get away with his/her actions by conducting your own "investigation". The rules on video/audio taping a person without their knowledge or consent are complicated and state-specific, and that sort of action shouldn't be carried out by someone without familiarity with the law in their specific jurisdiction. For everyone on this thread who has been/knows a person who has been abused, you have my prayers. There are too many children who are victimized by sick adults every day. It makes me think a bullet to the head is too humane for those types of criminals.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 19, 2013 14:44:09 GMT -5
Angel- I'm sorry your DD had to deal with a bully, especially at such a young age. Glad that the teachers intervened and put them in different classes.
I'm curious- in a case like that in which it's a small child bullying another small child where does that behavior come from? I'm not talking about biting a kid once or what have you but if the kid is a habitual bully. Where do you look to explain that behavior? Nature/Nurture? Is it the parents fault? Other siblings?
One of my nieces was having problems at school because a little girl was pulling a Mean Girl on her. Lexi would get on the bus and M would announce loudly to her posse "Lexi doesn't exist today. Everyone ignore her" and they would. She'd make it so no kids would sit by her at lunch or play with her. My niece wasn't her only victim, she'd do this to random other kids as well. It wasn't an Every Day pick on Lexi but it there was a group of 5 or 6 girls she would do this to.
When my sister complained to the teacher she said that it's become a real problem with girls that have older sisters. That the younger sibling has started lashing out and become a pretty bad bully. She only really saw it in families with girls. That's one type of issue and cause. There are others. As embarrassing as it is to say, my older son had huge issues with impulse control when he was younger, so did hit other children. He didn't bully like in the description above and it wasn't necessarily directed at any particular child, but he did not have good control over his emotions and until he did learn to control himself, did hit other children. The incidents were all surrounding situations where he would feel frustration and not have either the control or the alternate tools to deal with his frustration or anger, so hitting was his method to communicate. Of course that's not remotely acceptable and we worked for a long time with him to address his issues and help him learn control and ways to manage anger, but it was a slow process. We also worked closely with his teachers and made sure he was in school settings that were appropriate for him and were the type of environment where they would be able to understand the issue and work with him as well. Very long process and hard on the kids around him, him and us. He's a great kid now and hasn't had those issues for a few years now, thankfully. I'm not at all defending my child's hitting another child, just describing other reasons that children sometimes hit.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 19, 2013 14:48:58 GMT -5
This stat crushes my soul.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jun 19, 2013 14:52:25 GMT -5
Based on my unscientific study of the people that appear in court on felony charges, I'd estimate that 90% of the women and 50% of the men who are convicted of felonies were molested as children/young teens.
about 95% of the people in the drug court program were molested.
ETA: I don't think that if you were molested you will be become a criminal, but a disproportionate number of felons were molested as kids.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 19, 2013 14:57:42 GMT -5
Angel- I'm sorry your DD had to deal with a bully, especially at such a young age. Glad that the teachers intervened and put them in different classes.
I'm curious- in a case like that in which it's a small child bullying another small child where does that behavior come from? I'm not talking about biting a kid once or what have you but if the kid is a habitual bully. Where do you look to explain that behavior? Nature/Nurture? Is it the parents fault? Other siblings?
One of my nieces was having problems at school because a little girl was pulling a Mean Girl on her. Lexi would get on the bus and M would announce loudly to her posse "Lexi doesn't exist today. Everyone ignore her" and they would. She'd make it so no kids would sit by her at lunch or play with her. My niece wasn't her only victim, she'd do this to random other kids as well. It wasn't an Every Day pick on Lexi but it there was a group of 5 or 6 girls she would do this to.
When my sister complained to the teacher she said that it's become a real problem with girls that have older sisters. That the younger sibling has started lashing out and become a pretty bad bully. She only really saw it in families with girls. That's one type of issue and cause. There are others. As embarrassing as it is to say, my older son had huge issues with impulse control when he was younger, so did hit other children. He didn't bully like in the description above and it wasn't necessarily directed at any particular child, but he did not have good control over his emotions and until he did learn to control himself, did hit other children. The incidents were all surrounding situations where he would feel frustration and not have either the control or the alternate tools to deal with his frustration or anger, so hitting was his method to communicate. Of course that's not remotely acceptable and we worked for a long time with him to address his issues and help him learn control and ways to manage anger, but it was a slow process. We also worked closely with his teachers and made sure he was in school settings that were appropriate for him and were the type of environment where they would be able to understand the issue and work with him as well. Very long process and hard on the kids around him, him and us. He's a great kid now and hasn't had those issues for a few years now, thankfully. I'm not at all defending my child's hitting another child, just describing other reasons that children sometimes hit. What techniques did you use and at what age? Ds doesn't hit really, but when he melts down it can take hours to recover. The things we've tried aren't working.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 14:59:29 GMT -5
milee- Thank you for sharing your son's experience. At what age did he outgrow (I don't know if that's the right word) his issues? I'm just curious. I wonder if that sense of frustration and inability to effectively communicate isn't the root of a lot of adolescent problems. My co-worker's son has severe ADHD and he struggles with impulse control.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 15:03:57 GMT -5
This stat crushes my soul. combined with what Swamp is saying that's just plan sad. Brings me back to my exSIL's nephew. I wonder how much of this could be prevented if more people spoke up when they were concerned but didn't have concrete proof.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 19, 2013 15:11:58 GMT -5
Based on my unscientific study of the people that appear in court on felony charges, I'd estimate that 90% of the women and 50% of the men who are convicted of felonies were molested as children/young teens. about 95% of the people in the drug court program were molested. ETA: I don't think that if you were molested you will be become a criminal, but a disproportionate number of felons were molested as kids. I taught a GED class to a half-way house for drug addicts who were coming out of prison. None of them talked about sexual abuse, but all but one guy had brutal stories about physical abuse. The one guy that said he wasn't beat as a kid told me these "hilarious" stories about how his Grandfather would get him drunk when he was 5 or 6. I suspect there was a lot more going on with those guys than I was privy to. And I didn't want to hear any of that. I was just there to teach them fractions.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Jun 19, 2013 15:16:19 GMT -5
Oh Angel! Hugs to your DD. Sheila - Hugs to you.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 15:21:48 GMT -5
I wonder how much of this could be prevented if more people spoke up when they were concerned but didn't have concrete proof.
I wonder how much could be prevented if we didn't drag the victim and the finger pointer thru the mud. It's horrible. I can't imagine having to get thru that picket wall circus (which is why the moved it to the federal courthouse, stupid people can't follw) and having to be aware of what people think about you and the alleged victim. It's riduclous. My brother's friend pulled his kid from the son's practice because he thinks if senior is a pedophile then junior must be too. I'm sure he's not the only idiot the son has had to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised if he's pressured to leave the clinic as well. I never got why so many people don't report these things till this happened. Now I do.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 19, 2013 15:23:07 GMT -5
If I was sexually assaulted, I would probably not report it. I don't want to be put on trial for my behavior.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 19, 2013 15:45:25 GMT -5
The following is part of an interview that Serena Williams gave that she has sense apologized for:
She adds, "I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don't take drinks from other people."
Williams also is quoted as saying: "... she shouldn't have put herself in that position, unless they slipped her something, then that's different."
That girl had to go through the ringer in that trial and now she has pro athletes starting in national publications that the girl is basically at fault for putting herself in that position.
I'm willing to bet that a signification number of victims never report the crimes.
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