Would u allow one more incident in order to document abuse?

[sunshinegal1981]

DramaQ's revelation about her pediatrician's arrest got me thinking...


If you suspected but could not prove that a child in your care (doesn't even need to be a child I guess... a dependent elderly or mentally disabled adult would work in this example as well) was being abused/molested, would you:

A) immediately report the suspicion, knowing that you might not be believed (especially if victim is non-verbal) and the perp may not be prosecuted due to insufficient evidence

or

B) create a setup (video camera?) to 'catch the perp in the act' and have irrefutable evidence, knowing that this would cause the victim to be re-victimized at least one more time, but feeling more certain that the evidence would lead to incarceration and thus prevent further abuse (of this victim and potential others)?


What would your choice depend on?  The "severity" of the abuse? The degree to which you think the victim will be traumatized by the abuse? (Infant victim who will likely not remember, vs school-ager, etc.)  Something else that would sway your decision?

Would love to hear your thoughts, and apologies in advance for the subject matter.

[Tennesseer]

An innocent? No. But I wouldn't mind a police officer going undercover to become a potential victim.

[Deleted]

I think most states have laws for people in those types of positions that require them to report the suspected abuse.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and my answer is A.  If there is nothing there then the suspected abuser will be left in peace.  If there is a chance it's happening I'm calling because no way am I taking the chance of it happening again.

Especially if it is my kid.  I know what my SIL would say about me, I know what my MIL would say about me.  Doesn't change my answer.  I have a duty to my child.  It's up to the professionals to determine if I was right or not.

And I'll keep reporting if we're not believed.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I think most states have laws for people in those types of positions that require them to report the suspected abuse

My pedatrician's son, who is also a pediatrician, is bound by law to report accusations of abuse or risk losing his license.

He was hit doubly hard because he's obligated by law and it is his daughter who is the alleged victim.

[busymom]

But, I do like the idea of setting up a camera as plan B....

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 15:06:52 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I think most states have laws for people in those types of positions that require them to report the suspected abuse.

And if it's someone who is NOT in any type of position? Like... it's you and your kid, or you and your niece or something?  I mean, in a situation where the only obligation is moral, not legal.

[mmhmm]

I couldn't do the set-up thing.  If I suspected there was abuse, I'd have to report it immediately.  If I encountered it in association with my work, I'd be required to report it.  I know, for sure, I couldn't allow an abused person to be re-abused while I "collected evidence".  I'd have to kill the perp and that would probably end my butt in the pokey.

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 15:10:51 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think most states have laws for people in those types of positions that require them to report the suspected abuse

My pedatrician's son, who is also a pediatrician, is bound by law to report accusations of abuse or risk losing his license.

He was hit doubly hard because he's obligated by law and it is his daughter who is the alleged victim.

Yeah, I read the affidavit that you linked to, and pieced that much together.  :-(   Heartbreaking.   

[sunshinegal1981]

I have given thought to what I would do if it was MY kid, and I have not yet come up with a decision, although I think I lean towards B.  I feel I'd want there to be no question that they'd "get the bastard".

But I don't have kids yet, so this is largely hypothetical... and I am not so naive that I think I know how I'd feel about my kids before I've actually had any.

The other worst-case-scenario that my mind goes to is:
What if it's someone from my DH's side of the family (grandpa? uncle?) abusing OUR infant child, or something?  Me making the accusation without SOLID proof would lead to a HUGE family blow-up (obviously!!!), blame, division, the whole nine yards.  I can't imagine a more horrendous scenario than having my husband not believe me because of (understandable) allegiance to his own family members...?

[alabamagal]

I would report it.

I am not going to play amateur detective/police officer. That is what got George Zimmermann in trouble.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Stupid proboards.  Let's try this again.

It really is and since his father is a "pillar of the community" a bunch of jack asses have leaped into the fray. They created such a circus that the trial was moved to the federal courts and the date kept a secret.

I had to block my SIL for awhile and my MIL has said some horrible things about them to DH.

I don't know if he did it or not (personally I think so after reading the affidavit) that's not for me to decide.

But thru all this I've come to understand why so many people stay quiet.

It's put me even more firmly in the camp of speaking up. I'm not going to remain silent because of a bunch if ignornant nebnoses. It doesn't matter if I had a mountain of evidence there will still be a bunch of Nancy Graces who think I am lying and know the "real" truth.

Either way this family is destroyed.  Either the abuse would have continued or all of what is going on now happens.  No matter what a lot of people are going to suffer.

As a parent myself I feel my duty is to believe my child.  She should trust that she can come to me about ANYTHING.  The only people who I feel can disprove it are professionals who are trained to investigate these manners.  I am not remotely qualifed to dismiss her claims.

So I would report it knowing no matter what I'm fucked, but at least I can potentially stop the abuse my child.

DH and I have talked and we agree about this.  Granted it's in theory, I hope to God we're never tested.

[muttleynfelix]

I would report it. I have an obligation to the person in my care to protect them.  Period.

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 15:42:49 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Stupid proboards.  Let's try this again.

It really is and since his father is a "pillar of the community" a bunch of jack asses have leaped into the fray. They created such a circus that the trial was moved to the federal courts and the date kept a secret.

I had to block my SIL for awhile and my MIL has said some horrible things about them to DH.

I don't know if he did it or not (personally I think so after reading the affidavit) that's not for me to decide.

But thru all this I've come to understand why so many people stay quiet.

It's put me even more firmly in the camp of speaking up. I'm not going to remain silent because of a bunch if ignornant nebnoses. It doesn't matter if I had a mountain of evidence there will still be a bunch of Nancy Graces who think I am lying and know the "real" truth.

Either way this family is destroyed.  Either the abuse would have continued or all of what is going on now happens.  No matter what a lot of people are going to suffer.

As a parent myself I feel my duty is to believe my child.  She should trust that she can come to me about ANYTHING.  The only people who I feel can disprove it are professionals who are trained to investigate these manners.  I am not remotely qualifed to dismiss her claims.

So I would report it knowing no matter what I'm fucked, but at least I can potentially stop the abuse my child.

DH and I have talked and we agree about this.  Granted it's in theory, I hope to God we're never tested.

Who on earth could possibly say disparaging things about a father who came to the defense of his young daughter, and exposed her abuser?  Smh... I just can't even wrap my head around it.  :-(    (I believe you of course... it's just shockingly sad.) 

I hadn't considered your point that there are some people who, even with loads of clear evidence, would still side with the abuser, or minimize the abuse.  That makes me sick to my stomach, but I have to concede that you're probably right on this point.  Ugh. Disgusting.

[muttleynfelix]

The other worst-case-scenario that my mind goes to is:
What if it's someone from my DH's side of the family (grandpa? uncle?) abusing OUR infant child, or something? Me making the accusation without SOLID proof would lead to a HUGE family blow-up (obviously!!!), blame, division, the whole nine yards. I can't imagine a more horrendous scenario than having my husband not believe me because of (understandable) allegiance to his own family members...?

When you have a child, your allegiance is to them. Whether you are the mother or the father. If you notice something out of the ordinary, you bring it up with your spouse.  Their obligation is to the child. It makes it hard if the child is non-verbal, but setting up a sting in that situation isn't going to make you any more well liked or make you more believed.  Children have been sexually abused in a room full of people. People often see what they want to see.  I don't see how having more evidence would help you. That situation is going to suck no matter what road you take. So, take the road that protects your child.

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 15:52:05 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

I would report it. I have an obligation to the person in my care to protect them.  Period.

Agreed and understood.  I guess my question is, can't you protect them MORE if you can get the perp convicted 100% for good?

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 15:57:43 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

The other worst-case-scenario that my mind goes to is:
What if it's someone from my DH's side of the family (grandpa? uncle?) abusing OUR infant child, or something? Me making the accusation without SOLID proof would lead to a HUGE family blow-up (obviously!!!), blame, division, the whole nine yards. I can't imagine a more horrendous scenario than having my husband not believe me because of (understandable) allegiance to his own family members...?

When you have a child, your allegiance is to them. Whether you are the mother or the father. If you notice something out of the ordinary, you bring it up with your spouse.  Their obligation is to the child. It makes it hard if the child is non-verbal, but setting up a sting in that situation isn't going to make you any more well liked or make you more believed. ......

I don't know.... are you sure?   I would certainly find an accusation more credible if there was concrete evidence.... I'd assume it might be the same for others?

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 15:57:43 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

 Children have been sexually abused in a room full of people. People often see what they want to see.

This is something I hadn't considered deeply enough before, but I can see that you're right.    My mind is blown.   :-( 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Who on earth could possibly say disparaging things about a father who came to the defense of his young daughter, and exposed her abuser?

Swamp said this attitude is shockingly common, especially in people my MIL's age.  Back then you minded your own business and you didn't go public with it.

It's changed my opinions of a few people that is for sure.

I guess my question is, can't you protect them MORE if you can get the perp convicted 100% for good?

Why would you risk more harm coming to someone?  An accusation is enough, trained professionals will come in to sort out the rest.

You can't predict how the verdict will go.  Look at Micheal Jackson, OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony, etc. 

I'd never risk someone in my care by playing junior detective.

[muttleynfelix]

If you suspect a loved one of hurting your child, it is going to be bad no matter how you slice it.  If you set up a "sting" to have more evidence, I can see it going a couple of ways.

1. They can't believe even suspected Uncle X  (every common name I could think of is actually used in my family ) of such a horrible thing.  Why did you even suspect him? How dare you?

2.  That isn't what he is doing. Why do think he is abusing your angel?

3.  How dare you let your child be abused again. If you thought, she was being abused you should have contacted the authorities immediately. 

I'm sure there will be some people that agree. But it is such an emotionally charged situation that no matter what you do, there are going to be people who don't believe it is happening.

Thankfully, I have never had to deal with this and I pray to god I never do. 

[cronewitch]

My niece's accused a uncle of pulling down their panties. Their grandmother was watching them for the summer and kept letting her son babysit. The mother told her not to give them to Uncle but her son wouldn't do that. Uncle married a women with children and got put in jail for abusing those children.

The girls were verbal just didn't understand how to report sexual abuse so pulling down panties was what they considered the bad part. I assume he did more than that. I saw the girls mother last week and she said the name of the uncle but I didn't ask if he was still in jail for the child abuse, it was 35 years ago.

[thyme4change]

I would not put a child in a situation where I thought there was a good chance they would be a victim of a crime.  

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 16:04:54 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Who on earth could possibly say disparaging things about a father who came to the defense of his young daughter, and exposed her abuser?

Swamp said this attitude is shockingly common, especially in people my MIL's age.  Back then you minded your own business and you didn't go public with it.

Well, consider me duly shocked, in that case.    :-( 

It's changed my opinions of a few people that is for sure.

I guess my question is, can't you protect them MORE if you can get the perp convicted 100% for good?

Why would you risk more harm coming to someone? 

I guess the scenario in my head is one where the harm potential of each individual incident is small compared to the harm of the abuse pattern as a whole, for instance, a case where the abuser gets his jollies from doing something inappropriate and lewd, but doesn't cause physical pain, and the child is at an age where, given the continued love and support of his/her immediate family, is unlikely to remember or suffer lasting psychological effects. 

If physical harm were involved, the answer is clear.... I wouldn't allow that to happen to my dog, let alone another human being.

An accusation is enough, trained professionals will come in to sort out the rest.

You can't predict how the verdict will go.  Look at Micheal Jackson, OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony, etc. 

I'd never risk someone in my care by playing junior detective.

Those cases may have played out differently if surveillance video (for example) existed of the crimes being committed, no?


What if you think about it from the point of view of the victim, then?  If I was a child, and I was molested 74 times by 'uncle Larry', would I not prefer to endure incident #75 if I knew it meant he'd definitely be caught and hauled away to the slammer, vs risk devastating familial upset and endless "he said, she said" by having things come to light after incident #74 with NO concrete documented evidence?  

If I was that kid, I think I'd want the bastard in jail vs being spared the incremental additional trauma of incident #75 (assuming the abuse is non-violent), but I respect the right of others to disagree and/or think I'm a sociopath, so long as this is understood to be a hypothetical discussion.

[sunshinegal1981]

Jun 18, 2013 16:21:28 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

If you suspect a loved one of hurting your child, it is going to be bad no matter how you slice it.  If you set up a "sting" to have more evidence, I can see it going a couple of ways.

1. They can't believe even suspected Uncle X  (every common name I could think of is actually used in my family ) of such a horrible thing.  Why did you even suspect him? How dare you?

2.  That isn't what he is doing. Why do think he is abusing your angel?

3.  How dare you let your child be abused again. If you thought, she was being abused you should have contacted the authorities immediately. 

I'm sure there will be some people that agree. But it is such an emotionally charged situation that no matter what you do, there are going to be people who don't believe it is happening.

Thankfully, I have never had to deal with this and I pray to god I never do. 

I have definitely considered your point #3, which is why, again, while I *think* I know what I would do in a given scenario, and I have MY opinions on which course of action would result in greatest net reduction of harm, I can also see myself acting in a different way if actually placed in such a scenario.

[raeoflyte]

I would think the parent who set up the sting could be charged with abuse or at least neglect for intentionally allowing it to happen again.

[Angel!]

Jun 18, 2013 17:12:29 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I would think the parent who set up the sting could be charged with abuse or at least neglect for intentionally allowing it to happen again.

  If you knowingly put a child in an abusive situation you can get charged with child abuse. 

For me it would depend a lot on the victim & abuser: 

If my kid is the victim & I can keep them from the abuser, then I do so.  No way in hell my kid is going to be involved in some sort of sting operation if I can get them out of the situation entirely.  If I have strong suspicions, then I also report the person. 

If my kid is the victim & I can't keep them from the situation (say shared custody), then I would wait until I had strong suspicions or some sort of evidence.  Don't want to make the situation worse by reporting without anything to back it but a feeling. 

If my kid isn't the victim, then I wouldn't report it unless I had proof or strong suspicions.  Although if it was say a neighbor I suspected, then I may let the parents know that I feel something isn't right. 

[toomuchreality]

What if you think about it from the point of view of the victim, then?  If I was a child, and I was molested 74 times by 'uncle Larry', would I not prefer to endure incident #75 if I knew it meant he'd definitely be caught and hauled away to the slammer, vs risk devastating familial upset and endless "he said, she said" by having things come to light after incident #74 with NO concrete documented evidence?  

If I was that kid, I think I'd want the bastard in jail vs being spared the incremental additional trauma of incident #75 (assuming the abuse is non-violent), but I respect the right of others to disagree and/or think I'm a sociopath, so long as this is understood to be a hypothetical discussion.

I guess it depends on your view of what is non-violent vs the child's, who is having to put up with it one more time. What if that one more time, put the kid over the edge?

What if everyone blamed you then, cuz you could have reported it, and then perhaps it would have stopped?

What if only the kid blamed you, for knowing and not doing something sooner?

There very much are a lot of very high emotions that run in family members, when this kind of topic is brought up.

Say a child tells her mother, that grandpa, or uncle Bob has done XYZ. The kid is so afraid, cuz it felt so wrong, and all the things that were said to them. So they only tell a little bit of what happened, thinking they might be in trouble. Then mom says she won't report it, cuz it will break up the family. (It didn't seem like it had gotten that far) So the kid is left feeling like they were not believed, and they are not important. Like no one cared.
I messes with every choice and decision they will ever make, after that, for the rest of their lives.
But hey, at least the family didn't get broken up, huh?!  Talk about dysfunctional.

What seems insignificant to an adult, can be life altering, and life threatening for a child.

If the perp were turned in, there would at least be a record of the possible incident, that could be referred to later. Who knows, just being questioned might be enough to make them stop. Knowing their dirty little secret had been exposed, and the possibility of prosecution.
Just feeling like they were believed, and that someone actually cared, could make such a huge difference in the child's life.

It's not up to me to prove it. I'm not a police officer or investigator.  I would want that child to know I cared enough to take a chance. It takes a lot of courage to be either the child who speaks up, or the caring adult. Both have a rocky road ahead of them. But at least the child isn't alone, to travel that dark path. All the while trying to deal with all the regular stuff growing up, and relationships bring. And do it, as if everything is fine.

On top of all of this, the child still has to go to all the family functions and events. And go visit the perp on a regular basis, yet can't talk to anyone else about it. After all, if their own mother, the very person who should protect them (aunt or whomever) didn't...   Then they are required to give the perp a kiss goodbye etc.

Ugh.

[milee]

You're talking about using a child as bait.  Dress it up and rationalize it any way you want - but you're using a child as bait.

Never, ever OK.  Never.  Ever.



Justice and revenge (which is what you want when you talk about catching the perpetrator) are nice, but the most important thing is to protect the child.  And no, the incremental trauma of abuse #75 isn't less than the trauma of abuse #74 and certainly not worth subjecting a child to in order to get revenge or even justice.

[midjd]

If you truly want to be 100% certain that the perp will pay for his actions and it will never happen again, a sting operation is not the way to go. Think more along the lines of a .44 slug to the back of the head and a long drive out into the desert.

Trying to set up another incident to gather evidence is more likely to get you in trouble for child endangerment than it is to secure a conviction. And as others have stated, even with an ironclad case, there are no guarantees. Juries can do crazy things.

[midjd]

B) create a setup (video camera?) to 'catch the perp in the act' and have irrefutable evidence, knowing that this would cause the victim to be re-victimized at least one more time, but feeling more certain that the evidence would lead to incarceration and thus prevent further abuse (of this victim and potential others)?

I remember reading a follow-up on the To Catch a Predator show... which as you know involves police monitoring, cameras, IP address tracking, the whole shebang. Only about 60%-70% of the people caught on that show were even prosecuted, and fewer convicted.

Granted, solicitation of a minor is a more minor (no pun intended) crime than the one Drama's pediatrician is alleged to have committed, but those conviction rates don't inspire much confidence that getting incident #75 on video will have any greater effect than reporting after incident #74 (or incident #1).