deantrip
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Post by deantrip on Jun 18, 2013 18:51:46 GMT -5
I wouldn't risk one more incident, also sometimes hidden camera's and recording laws can prevent information from being legally admissible(depends on the state). I think I would report it, and I would do everything in my power to defend my family from harm.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 18, 2013 18:54:02 GMT -5
I remember reading a follow-up on the To Catch a Predator show... which as you know involves police monitoring, cameras, IP address tracking, the whole shebang. Only about 60%-70% of the people caught on that show were even prosecuted, and fewer convicted. Granted, solicitation of a minor is a more minor (no pun intended) crime than the one Drama's pediatrician is alleged to have committed, but those conviction rates don't inspire much confidence that getting incident #75 on video will have any greater effect than reporting after incident #74 (or incident #1). Not only that but any decent defense lawyer is going to have a field day calling into question the motive of the person who would be willing to put a child at risk to obtain such footage. You might end up serving just as much time as the perpetrator. And, IMHO, you should serve some pretty hefty time for failing to protect the child.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 18, 2013 19:09:38 GMT -5
If you truly want to be 100% certain that the perp will pay for his actions and it will never happen again, a sting operation is not the way to go. Think more along the lines of a .44 slug to the back of the head and a long drive out into the desert. Boating accident. They happen all the time and not a lot of evidence left if you're even remotely careful. Dang, I wish I hadn't told ya'll my boating accident theory. Now I can't ever use it on my DH.
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Jun 18, 2013 19:46:35 GMT -5
I would think the parent who set up the sting could be charged with abuse or at least neglect for intentionally allowing it to happen again. Noted. Although I don't pretend to know what the laws surround that type of 'negligence' truly are. Again, though, what I had in mind was a case of mere SUSPICION, not necessarily a case where you know "it" is happening.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2013 19:53:17 GMT -5
I missed the revelation about the pediatrician. What happened?
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Jun 18, 2013 19:57:00 GMT -5
I guess it depends on your view of what is non-violent vs the child's, who is having to put up with it one more time. What if that one more time, put the kid over the edge? What if everyone blamed you then, cuz you could have reported it, and then perhaps it would have stopped? What if only the kid blamed you, for knowing and not doing something sooner? There very much are a lot of very high emotions that run in family members, when this kind of topic is brought up. Say a child tells her mother, that grandpa, or uncle Bob has done XYZ. The kid is so afraid, cuz it felt so wrong, and all the things that were said to them. So they only tell a little bit of what happened, thinking they might be in trouble. Then mom says she won't report it, cuz it will break up the family. (It didn't seem like it had gotten that far) So the kid is left feeling like they were not believed, and they are not important. Like no one cared. I messes with every choice and decision they will ever make, after that, for the rest of their lives. But hey, at least the family didn't get broken up, huh?! Talk about dysfunctional. What seems insignificant to an adult, can be life altering, and life threatening for a child. If the perp were turned in, there would at least be a record of the possible incident, that could be referred to later. Who knows, just being questioned might be enough to make them stop. Knowing their dirty little secret had been exposed, and the possibility of prosecution. Just feeling like they were believed, and that someone actually cared, could make such a huge difference in the child's life. It's not up to me to prove it. I'm not a police officer or investigator. I would want that child to know I cared enough to take a chance. It takes a lot of courage to be either the child who speaks up, or the caring adult. Both have a rocky road ahead of them. But at least the child isn't alone, to travel that dark path. All the while trying to deal with all the regular stuff growing up, and relationships bring. And do it, as if everything is fine. On top of all of this, the child still has to go to all the family functions and events. And go visit the perp on a regular basis, yet can't talk to anyone else about it. After all, if their own mother, the very person who should protect them (aunt or whomever) didn't... Then they are required to give the perp a kiss goodbye etc. Ugh. I completely agree that a child's perception of what is or isn't 'traumatic' may be completely different from an adult's. No argument from me there. But I was thinking more along the lines of a kid who is too young (or otherwise unable due to disability, etc) to report. When a child is old enough to verbalize (even awkwardly) abuse and does so, it is absolutely clear-cut that one should take the disclosure at face value, and report. I'm talking about a case of suspicion, where no report is made, and the victim is unable to answer "Did Grandpa Joe touch XYZ?". I completely agree that your 'dysfunctional family' scenario, where a kid reports abuse but is not believed due to fears of 'disrupting the family' is horrific and repulsive. And people did (and still do) have to deal with scenarios such as the one you describe. (Hopefully less so now than in the past?) Sickening. :-(
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Jun 18, 2013 20:01:15 GMT -5
I missed the revelation about the pediatrician. What happened? Later, Drama revealed that her kids' doc has recently been arrested for pedophilia. The victim was his own 5yo granddaughter. The person who reported to authorities was the victim's dad (the perp's son), who is ALSO a physician (not sure if he's a pediatrician too, but I don't think so?). (Drama, please correct me if I got any of that wrong.) The turmoil in that family right now must be fever pitch. :-(
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 18, 2013 20:01:47 GMT -5
Who on earth could possibly say disparaging things about a father who came to the defense of his young daughter, and exposed her abuser?
I guess the scenario in my head is one where the harm potential of each individual incident is small compared to the harm of the abuse pattern as a whole, for instance, a case where the abuser gets his jollies from doing something inappropriate and lewd, but doesn't cause physical pain, and the child is at an age where, given the continued love and support of his/her immediate family, is unlikely to remember or suffer lasting psychological effects. If physical harm were involved, the answer is clear.... I wouldn't allow that to happen to my dog, let alone another human being. .... I think you haven't been the victim of abuse and I'm very glad for you that you find it difficult to understand that just one more incident can be as horrifying as the first and that even if you don't see a bruise or other "physical" harm, the damage is still real and not inconsequential. It's also interesting that you feel you would be willing to make this decision for the child in question because you think you would feel that way in his/her situation. So are you OK with others making major life decisions for you then? For instance, I'm pretty sure if I am diagnosed with Alzheimers or most other debilitating diseases or an injury that greatly impairs my quality of life, I'm going to choose to off myself rather that put myself and my family through that. That decision is mine and primarily impacts me. Since I feel that way, would it be acceptable if I then made that same decision for every other person out there? OK to visit the nursing homes and hospitals so I can euthanize anybody who doesn't have what I deem to be a good quality of life? After all, I'm sure that's the decision that I'd want to have done to me, so it's OK, right?
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Jun 18, 2013 20:21:59 GMT -5
You're talking about using a child as bait. Dress it up and rationalize it any way you want - but you're using a child as bait. My first instinct when I read this comment was to be defensive, but, what the hell. Am I talking about using a child as bait? Yes. Yes, I suppose I am. It's a hypothetical mental exercise, so don't string me up yet.... I'm just exploring the moral relativism of "reducing immediate harm" vs "eliminating the possibility of future, long-term harm". Again, I'm talking about a scenario where there is ONLY suspicion. If there is KNOWN abuse, you report, evidence or no evidence. Hmmmm. Revenge is certainly an attractive option, but the prevention of future harm is more what I had in mind. To ME, the best 'win' would be to remove all future abuse opportunities from the ABUSER. Maybe that's where we are at an impasse? I guess for many people, protection of the victim from the next 'incident' is paramount, where maybe for ME, removing the ABUSER from the scene seems like... it would eliminate MANY future incidents, and that would feel like a bigger success in the 'big picture'? (Again, I am not a parent, and I do not yet know the love of a child. When I do, I am sure I will move to the "protect my offspring at all costs no matter what, every time" camp.) Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts, in any event.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 18, 2013 20:30:25 GMT -5
...::: To ME, the best 'win' would be to remove all future abuse opportunities from the ABUSER. Maybe that's where we are at an impasse? :::...
Perfectly acceptable goal and you are welcome to use yourself as bait to achieve this end. The problem comes in when you are talking about using a child as bait to achieve your goal.
You don't need a sting to protect a child, you need to remove the child from the situation. If the situation is serious enough that your suspicion is strong enough to warrant a sting, then you need to remove the child no matter what the social consequences are to you. Your family doesn't like it? Tough. You aren't able to use Uncle Ed or Grandma to babysit? Tough. You do what you need to do to protect that child.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 18, 2013 20:51:04 GMT -5
If I have even an inkling my child is being abused, I am removing them from the situation and never putting them in it again.
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Jun 18, 2013 21:04:38 GMT -5
...::: To ME, the best 'win' would be to remove all future abuse opportunities from the ABUSER. Maybe that's where we are at an impasse? :::...
Perfectly acceptable goal and you are welcome to use yourself as bait to achieve this end. The problem comes in when you are talking about using a child as bait to achieve your goal.
You don't need a sting to protect a child, you need to remove the child from the situation. If the situation is serious enough that your suspicion is strong enough to warrant a sting, then you need to remove the child no matter what the social consequences are to you. Your family doesn't like it? Tough. You aren't able to use Uncle Ed or Grandma to babysit? Tough. You do what you need to do to protect that child. I'd happily sign up for this, I really would.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 18, 2013 21:11:25 GMT -5
How much are you are kids? Just because a child is verbal doesn't mean they can articulate abuse. I had a lot of family members visiting last weekend as my infant daughter was baptized. My sister's 9 yo DD would not even read her birthday card out loud in that group because she is shy and she knew everyone there. But she really hates being the center of attention. While she probably would feel comfortable to tell her mom as she is super close with her mom, I think in an abuse situation it would be very very hard for her to articulate what happened. I think you are underestimating how long it is before a child can really articulate if Grandpa Joe really did touch him there. I ask my 3 year old about his day all the time. Sometimes he'll answer me and sometimes he won't. Sometimes he'll just flat make stuff up. Just because a child may not be able to articulate the abuse, doesn't mean they aren't old enough to remember it.
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kent
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Post by kent on Jun 18, 2013 21:17:48 GMT -5
"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the God's."
That said, I would go to the police and file whatever report is necessary. I would then do as they instruct. If I were reasonably sure in my own mind something was wrong, I'd remove the victim ASAP. If it were my child and I actually witnessed something, I'd call 911 and tell them there is a dead body at this address. If they asked when it happened, I'd tell them, "In about 30 seconds."
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 18, 2013 21:25:26 GMT -5
If I have even an inkling my child is being abused, I am removing them from the situation and never putting them in it again. I would guess as a non-parent it might be difficult to understand the horror & guilt you would feel if you even seriously believed your child was abused even once. You are their parent, their protector, especially when they are too young to speak for themselves. No fucking way you put your own kid back in harms way on purpose just to try to catch the guy. I don't care if it it for the greater good or not, you protect your kid. And honestly IMO anyone who does this, or turns a blind eye to abuse without the intention of gathering evidence, is a shitty parent. You are not the police, not CPS, you are the parent & supposed to be protecting them. Plus, just one last time might be the time the kid gets seriously injured or worse. Not a risk I would take with my kid's life.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 18, 2013 21:53:44 GMT -5
...:::"If there is nothing there then the suspected abuser will be left in peace.":::...
I don't think this is true a majority of the time. I'm sure it depends largely on the severity of the accusation, as well as how far it spreads. Once it passes a certain threshold, it is very hard for the average person to disassociate the accusation from the accused. Cousin Cid might be able to shake the accusation that he double-dips chips into salsa. But with what DQ is dealing with, even if the guy truly is innocent, people will remember.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 18, 2013 22:01:22 GMT -5
...:::"If there is nothing there then the suspected abuser will be left in peace.":::... I don't think this is true a majority of the time. I'm sure it depends largely on the severity of the accusation, as well as how far it spreads. Once it passes a certain threshold, it is very hard for the average person to disassociate the accusation from the accused. Cousin Cid might be able to shake the accusation that he double-dips chips into salsa. But with what DQ is dealing with, even if the guy truly is innocent, people will remember. There are several people where i have reason to believe that they touch children inappropriately. Although those people have never been arrested, my kids will never be nears those people other than at a public gathering. I'm not going to let my kid be the guinea pig to get these people convicted
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Jun 19, 2013 2:22:35 GMT -5
Ever feel this way? It is amazing what happens right in front of a large group of people. And how well that very young child remembers, and at what age. Agreed- It's sickening. And sad too.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Jun 19, 2013 7:22:04 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 8:36:51 GMT -5
I don't think this is true a majority of the time. I'm sure it depends largely on the severity of the accusation, as well as how far it spreads.
I agree. Either way somebody's life is ruined and that's a tragedy. BUT I am going to err on ruining the life of the alleged victim as opposed to the alleged abuser. This goes for anyone I'm responsible for, including my pets and lab animals. It's an awful situation to be in. The son's life is just as ruined as his father's, nobody comes out of this clean. But if I have to make a Sophie's choice I'm going with the victim. Sum up is about a month ago my mom calls me to tell me my pediatrician has been arrested for second degree pedophilia. She found out thru her workplace web news since she works for a hospital he has a license with. I get ahold of the affiadvit when my SIL puts it on facebook. I read it and found out that the victim is his 5 yr old grandaughter and his son turned him in. His son is a pediatrician as well in the same practice. I believe his other son is in family medicine. What is going on now I don't know. People are so outraged that a "pillar of the community" was charged with something like this they turned the courthouse into a circus. So the date was change and not released. The trial was moved to the federal courthouse so nobody can get in without authorizartion. He has lost his practice no matter what. I have no idea if they'll release the results of the trial. I'm sure if they do I'll have to block my MIL and SIL from my facebook wall again. And honestly IMO anyone who does this, or turns a blind eye to abuse without the intention of gathering evidence, is a shitty parent. You are not the police, not CPS, you are the parent & supposed to be protecting them
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 19, 2013 9:00:34 GMT -5
Deleted by GRG. I missed page 2 on which many already said the same thing I did.
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Jun 19, 2013 9:02:41 GMT -5
I'd be really, really tempted to catch the abuser in the act with a high quality video. And I have given some folks enough rope to hang themselves in other situations, so I truly understand why someone would want to ensure the abuser got convicted. But, that said, I'm no criminal lawyer, nor do I play one on tv, but you should also consider any arguments the defense attorney in such a case would have to throw your video/other evidence out. It is possible that the child would suffer through one more incidence of abuse only for it all to be for naught, kwim? The police and the District Attorney's office are better qualified to handle such a sting operation. So, the graver tragedy, IMHO, would be knowingly putting the child through more abuse only to have the evidence thrown out than taking the chance that your word and a thorough investigation will yield a conviction. Also a very valid consideration.... thanks for posting.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 19, 2013 9:23:26 GMT -5
Just wanted to add that one look no further than the sex abuse that went on for years in the Catholic Church if you need an example of people turning a blind eye and not believing children trying to tell on their abusers. (I don't personally condemn the Catholic faith for this, IMHO, sin of all sins, just the sickos who committed/hid/perpetuated the abuse.)
As for what *I* would do, well, I have a well-deserved reputation as a Mother Bear as it is, so woe to anyone who simply goes near my man cubs with abusive intent -- never mind gets close enough to actually touch them...
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 19, 2013 9:28:59 GMT -5
One more thought (need more caffeine so I can organize them all better, LOL): If one just happened to catch an abuser in the act (i.e., without pre-planning or neglect of the child's safety and well-being), it absolutely should be shared with authorities because it may be admissible in court. But it could also be used to threaten...ummm..."persuade" the abuser to leave the victim alone. And, depending upon the severity of the abuse, I see the potential for the public disclosure of such proof as being a community service.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 19, 2013 10:16:28 GMT -5
Just wanted to add that one look no further than the sex abuse that went on for years in the Catholic Church if you need an example of people turning a blind eye and not believing children trying to tell on their abusers. (I don't personally condemn the Catholic faith for this, IMHO, sin of all sins, just the sickos who committed/hid/perpetuated the abuse.) Out of curiosity, when you're referring to the Catholic Church turning a blind eye and not believing, are you referring to the Church officials or the congregations? Of course it varies by case, but IMHO in many of the cases the church officials knew of the abuse and made the conscious decision that protecting the church was the most important thing and that the abusers could be reformed through counseling or being removed from whatever situation they'd been in to tempt them so. I don't think the church officials didn't believe, I think the church officials weren't equipped to handle the situation and made some very wrong choices in how to deal with the situation(s). As far as the rest of the congregation, I think they probably didn't believe the children if the accusations against the priest were made public. That's not unusual at all. Pedophiles can be very charming, wonderful, kind people and that's the side that all the adults and most of the other children see and love. Look at DramaQ's story about the public coming out in support of the pediatrician that was just charged. Think about many past cases - from Michael Jackson to any other random case - where people think "he's such a wonderful person, I can't believe he'd do such a thing!" People tend to think if a person is "good", then that person can't possibly do "bad" things. Not so. People are complicated and some pedophiles have done some wonderful things... doesn't mean they're not pedophiles. The flaw in that reasoning is the same flaw that OP has in her argument. People assume that they are good people and they would never molest a child, so if the other person is a good person, he/she would never molest a child. Just like OP thinks that because she would willingly put herself out as bait to be abused one more time to capture proof on film (and BTW, if you haven't been abused, that statement means just as much as a person who's never been around guns or at war saying they'd "take a bullet" for something), then it's reasonable to assume that abused children would make this same choice as well. False syllogism.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 19, 2013 10:20:11 GMT -5
The fact that they moved the priests around after allegations, sent them for counseling, and had "stern talkings to" with them shows they believed, they just didn't understand the magnitude of the problem or the potentially devastating effects on the kids. It's just in the last 20 years that child sex abuse is being talked about. It used to be covered up, which is why I think the older generation has such a hard time believing accusations.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 10:26:37 GMT -5
People are complicated and some pedophiles have done some wonderful things... doesn't mean they're not pedophiles
That's what DH told his mother. He said we have nothing against him as a doctor, he is/was(?) a damn good pediatrtican and has been for many years. BUT you never know who someone is behind closed doors. Who he is to the community doesn't have any bearing on this situation. He should be judged on the evidence, not the fact MIL thinks he's such a nice man. People tend to think they know what bad people look like. They think they know what type of people commit these crimes. I told DH if this was some poor guy from the ghetto in Omaha nobody would doubt that he's guilty. I mean look at him,that's what these peopld do. If it were that easy to figure out who's the bad guy bad things wouldn't happen. The sad fact of the matter is the pedophile can be your pediatrician. Your neighbor can be harboring three kidnapped women in his basement. You just don't know. That's what these people count on. Being a pillar of the community or a celebrity or a priest or a football coach for Penn State are great places for these people to hide since they know the public will never want to believe them capable of these crimes.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 10:31:47 GMT -5
It's just in the last 20 years that child sex abuse is being talked about. It used to be covered up, which is why I think the older generation has such a hard time believing accusations.
I've come to accept that even though it infuriates me. I can't say anything to my parents either because we disagree on the subject (but at least they aren't ass hats like my SIL and MIL). I realized it's because they are children of the 50's and have a totally different mindset than I do.
The only person who matters to me is my DH. Fortunately we are both on the same page. This rocked our world and forced us to have some very serious unplesant conversations. I pray we never have to put what we discussed into practice.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 19, 2013 10:34:51 GMT -5
My parents are surprisingly open to discussions of who did what bad thing, even though dad grew up strict Catholic and went to Catholic school.
He was a firefighter and saw lots of crappy stuff, so maybe that's why? I dunno..........
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 19, 2013 10:37:28 GMT -5
The fact that they moved the priests around after allegations, sent them for counseling, and had "stern talkings to" with them shows they believed, they just didn't understand the magnitude of the problem or the potentially devastating effects on the kids. It's just in the last 20 years that child sex abuse is being talked about. It used to be covered up, which is why I think the older generation has such a hard time believing accusations. I think that was Joe Paterno's problem. The idea of one of his coaches abusing young boys was so foreign to him he was lost.
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