doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Jun 18, 2013 11:32:34 GMT -5
The courts laughed at her-right? I do realize it costs time and money to deal with that crap and wish there was a better solution. I'm always curious how people with the worst ex's didn't see those issues before they got married. I was very close to hating my Dh for a while, but we were lucky enough to still be a team about parenting. My ex had issues when I met him. We were teenagers. I had the same issues. Most teenagers grow up and don't have those same issues in their mid thirties. I felt like I was married to a rebellious Peter Pan, who refused to grow up. It is all fun and games when everyone is a wild and crazy teenager, but a whole different story when one partner grows up and the other does not. I was not ok when he dragged my toddler on his immature adventures. Thankfully the court system agreed that it constituted as dangerous and they agreed with me.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Jun 18, 2013 11:38:59 GMT -5
It was. Of course this all probably plays into why I'm unwilling to wrap Christmas gifts for him. (Reference to other thread on helping grandchildren...) Hugs Milee. What he did was unforgivable.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 18, 2013 11:43:16 GMT -5
And I'm not judging people who have had it happen to. I get that spouses change (sometimes a lot! ) but is it something that was there, that you ignored, grew out of, expected then to change, etc. Or how often does a spouse just completely change when kids are in the picture.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 18, 2013 11:54:32 GMT -5
The back story is that she does everything in her power to "stick it" to her ex - my DB. And then turn around and blame him. It's a long-standing, dysfunctional pattern and I frankly admire him for putting up with it. It would be easier to walk away. Besides, she under SPECIFIC COURT ORDER to give the kids to him on Father's Day. She was told point-blank - in advance - not to take them out of the County this weekend (also in defiance of the court order, neither may remove the kids from the County without the written permission of the other) and she did it anyway. It's not reasonable at all. So her dad is ill - who says their dad is going to live longer than the grandfather? Accidents and heartbreak happen all the time. I call BS on "he's ill and might not live much longer." She's playing games and the kids are pawns. It sucks. She knows there is no money for him to take her to court to sanction her. She acts with self-absorbed aplomb (a brass pair) - and a vindictive streak. I'm just pointing out why some men give up - - they love their children dearly but just can't take the crap anymore. And I don't blame them. I feel bad for the kids. Sorry kitten, this is the third time you've given fathers a pass at walking away if the X makes it "difficult". This isn't a car or a beagle, this is their children. You never walk away from your kids, ever. No matter what PITA the other parent may be. There is no "pass" for this. I don't even know what you are talking about, the only thing I can think is it's a PITA for you and you'd just as soon he walked away - because I can't understand your repeatedly saying that fathers walk away because someone makes things difficult (??!!??). It's rubbish. Well first of all - I don't see anywhere that I've given a "pass" to fathers - especially not three times! My entry appears multiple times because people quoted me, not because I gave out passes. And Number Two - and far more important - I'm NOT giving a pass to fathers to walk away! Read carefully what I said. I said I UNDERSTAND it. I DIDN'T say I AGREED with it. Big Difference.
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goldensam
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Post by goldensam on Jun 18, 2013 12:01:41 GMT -5
I understand why some dads get frustrated and throw up their hands and move on. When you have someone playing you and creating non-stop drama sometimes you have to walk away from the craziness before it does you in. Really? I don't understand throwing your hands up and moving on at all. But maybe that's because that's exactly what my father did and it was pretty awful for us. My parents split when I was around 6 months old. I don't know all the details and depending on who you ask, you will get a different version of the events, but to me that's not relevant. What is relevant is that when I was 2-3, my dad willingly signed over his parental rights in exchange for not having to pay child support and let another man adopt me. It could have had good ending, I suppose, except the new guy was a pedophile and is now serving a life sentence in prison. My mom was young and I think she did the best she could with me and the other kids that came later, but she still brought men around that weren't good guys, we had little money, and there was abuse of all types. I met my dad when I was 9 and he came around every year or three until I graduated from college. When I had to move out at 16, I asked him to please send some money so I could buy clothes, groceries, gas to get to work, etc. but he refused because "any dollar he gave me was a dollar that helped my mom". No amount of explaining that mom wasn't supporting me either would do a damn bit of good. He wasn't struggling. He and his new family lived just fine about 2 hours away. He just couldn't get over his anger with my mom longer enough to take care of a child he willingly created. He and his kids added me on FB a few years ago, and more recently, some of his extended family. I've actually come to like his extended family (but I don't think of them as mine, just friends if that makes sense) but I have had to hide his and his kids' updates because I can't handle the constant praising of how great they are, pictures of their new cars, and pictures of all their fabulous vacations when I am lucky to get a text on my birthday that says "HB". One day, I'll be strong enough to just delete him. My DF and his ex-wife have a very good relationship that was initially probably a little forced for the sake of their kids, but now I think is genuine. Sure, she can be annoying and I'm sure he can be too, but we all live close together and the kids float between the houses as they see fit. There is none of this "you get them til 6pm Tuesday" crap. It's not always roses, but you make it work. So no, I don't think there is any excuse to just walk away from your kids because you don't want to deal with their mother. What a cop out.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 18, 2013 12:16:35 GMT -5
And - the worst the X, the more horrible, manipulative, mean, crazy they are - the more that other parent needs to take responsibility for having kids them - Pay their penance - and do everything in their power to positively influence their children's lives. Well obviously, this is what a decent man should strive for, even if it means not getting to move on and start another family. But even with that, not all men have the time, money or emotional endurance to deal with this sort of thing. My nephew knocked up one of his clasmates when they were 15. This girl came from a whackadoodle family and at 20, is the typical welfare queen, complete with 4 kids, no job, and no plan to be self supporting. He's gone to school, is trying to make something of himself, and his parents have spent thousands to fight for his rights as a father, because he dearly loves his child and is as good a daddy as someone that young can be. But for some reason, the courts decided to give this girl, who has no ambition, and who has no clue how to create a decent home (since she wasn't raised in one) primary custody of the kid, even though my nephew would have taken the child and has two loving parents who would help him raise the child. He's doing his best to counteract the effects of his child being raised by white trash, but there is only so much he can do, and any time he does get with this kid is hard fought. Why the courts decided this girl is the better parent is beyond me.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2013 12:38:24 GMT -5
Of course screwing around with a court order is only a "bit nasty"...because it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to yank a man's chain when there are kids involved.
Cause the mom can get away with it. And she can keep on doing it even AFTER the dad shells out big bucks to go back to court again, and again, to have a judge tell her to behave.
Someone said they could understand why someone would have to give up, we given examples of instances where the fathers can only preservere because they have significant resources.
Of course in some folks views perhaps it is better for the dad to lose his job or go bankrupt trying to get fair treatment, wait forget fair, how about just being able to have some kind of relationship with their kid?
Hey, no job so unable to pay child support - but at least the kid will know their dad cared - wait that's only if the mom tells them.
Oh well.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 18, 2013 12:41:26 GMT -5
Father's day is a pretty stupid, made up holiday anyway. It is only a big hairy deal if you make it a big hairy deal. If I spent 364 days a year being a great daughter and then blew Father's Day, a normal dad would remember the 99.7% of days that we had a great relationship.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2013 12:58:55 GMT -5
That's exactly my point, kids need a support structure and any parent that deliberately denies any part of that potential is in my mind evil.
I don't care if it is two mommies, two daddies or hell, even three grandmas. But especially when there is a bio parent who WANTS to be involved with their child it wrong at every level to deny or interfere with that relationship.
And yes, single moms may do a great job given the circumstances but statistics strongly support the fact that kids do better with a father figure in the picture as well. It seems a shame to deny that out of pure spite.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 18, 2013 13:30:41 GMT -5
Thank you mid. I'm not an attorney, and I've never been divorced, but I office with a divorce attorney, and overhear conversations. She is quick to point out what won't fly in a courtroom. Seems fairly cut and dry honestly except for the people who are idiots.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Jun 18, 2013 13:37:16 GMT -5
Father's day is a pretty stupid, made up holiday anyway. It is only a big hairy deal if you make it a big hairy deal. If I spent 364 days a year being a great daughter and then blew Father's Day, a normal dad would remember the 99.7% of days that we had a great relationship. Exactly. Mothers and Father's Day is the only day my parents don't want to see us. Restaurants are jammed packed and things are just not needed. My parents have everything they want. We do things together as a family all the time. We do not need to make a big production on the actual holidays.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2013 13:46:05 GMT -5
@midjd - I fully acknowledge that most of the time you only get one side of the story. HOWEVER the kids involved (we've been friends for over 8 years) are now 12 and 14 and the oldest told her dad about things her mother was posting on facebook of all places about the "condition" the kids came home in after an extended visit. The ex also made statements about being worried about the kids being left alone with the new wife.
The oldest had to go before a family court mediator and detail out the abuses suffered at the hands of her grandmother. Apparently not keeping the kids to a training schedule for a marathon and allowing them to eat red meat and ice cream is abuse. yes, the mother has them competing in kids ironman triatholons and considers it abuse to let them get out of peak physical shape. Anything that does not conform to her worldview is abuse and as far as I know she's never been told to cut it out since it just keeps going on.
The ex has also decided that she will no longer drive to the midway point to drop/pick up the kids. If the dad want's to see them he had to come pick them up. If he does not drop them off at her house then she'll have him charged with interferring with custody. How the hell does that happen? Oh, BTW - the new wife is not allowed to be on her property. Nice, hmm?
I wish this shit was made up, but we've seen some of it in action and know how much grief the ex has caused.
And we all HATE getting the kids dragged into the middle of it and having to testify against a parent.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 18, 2013 13:55:42 GMT -5
Captain, I'm sorry your friend is going through that. I will never dispute that mothers can be just as petty and vindictive as fathers.
Just curious (and I can explain my hypothesis on this) - does the mother have an attorney, or is she representing herself?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 18, 2013 14:04:46 GMT -5
The other issue is that it is one thing to fight when the kids are in danger, and something else to fight when you know the kids will be ok if you leave. If the mom is abusive, dad actually has a chance of getting full custody, and it is his duty to protect the kids. If mom is a good mom, except for the fact that any involvement from dad will cause her to create endless drama, I could see how a guy could think that stepping away would be less destructive than having the kids get pulled into the drama that would be created if he tried to stay involved. I'm not justifying it, mind you. In most cases, there are ways to minimize the drama and keep the kids from being pulled in, but they take a lot of effort.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 18, 2013 14:20:24 GMT -5
OK, didn't read the thread yet, will in a minute, but I took OP completely differently - like REAL meaning dads who are there for the kids, whether it's a step-dad or bio-dad or foster one. the ones who are THERE, not somewhere where they can't be found
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2013 14:24:51 GMT -5
Captain, I'm sorry your friend is going through that. I will never dispute that mothers can be just as petty and vindictive as fathers. Just curious (and I can explain my hypothesis on this) - does the mother have an attorney, or is she representing herself? She has one representing her. Let's say the man she is living with has very deep pockets and leave it at that. They are also required to use an online family court software system (sorry I don't know details here) where grievances are first entered to be settled by a mediator if needed before going before a judge if a resolution cannot be reached. According to our friend he has to respond to a grievance after almost every visit. In cases where we were present we've been asked to confirm some details. All of this becomes a part of the record. We also know divorced couples where they *GASP* actively work together as parents to resolve child issues to ensure their kids have as little conflict as possible. Which is why it is so sad when we see our friends (esp the kids) dragged through the ringer because adults can't grow up.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2013 15:04:57 GMT -5
Our observations of how these matters are handled appear to match yours in our state (at least). The situation with our friend involved parents who live in two separate states (neither one of which is ours) so that created a whole nother cluster****. Yes there is some background between the ADULTS involved here, but personal feelings should not be allowed to be used against your children. What's really sad is that he's counting the days until the youngest turns 18, not because CS will end but because his ex will then be limited as to how much she can manipulate him. Which reminds me, I need to remind him to check his decree with respect to college costs
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 18, 2013 15:09:51 GMT -5
But anyone can download a form from the internet, change it to suit their purposes, and file it with the court. Although self-representation can be useful, the repeated filing of frivolous motions and dragging the other parent back to court for every minor expense seem to be much more common behaviors when attorneys aren't involved. And judges (especially elected judges) seem to be more reluctant to ream someone a new one when they're dealing with a person who isn't a lawyer and so presumably doesn't know any better. It's an unfortunate situation on all counts, and I'm not sure how it can be solved without trampling on someone's civil rights. Is it worthwhile to have a lawyer if you keep dealing with frivolous motions by an ex? I keep hearing about people spending thousands to deal with their ex's crap & I wonder why. At a certain point it seems you would have seen enough to just represent yourself & do it just as well as a lawyer on the frivolous crap.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 18, 2013 15:40:55 GMT -5
I think it can be useful to have a lawyer, but definitely not necessary in every case. A lot depends on your own familiarity with the legal system and ability to follow instructions. Most of the complaints I hear are about the self-represented litigants who don't follow the trial rules (filing letters to the court instead of motions, not serving the other party, filing subsequent motions before the first one has been ruled upon, etc.) and seem to stem from a misunderstanding of the process/the court's role. If it's an uncomplicated case (two income-earning parents, all the kids involved are related to both parents and living in the same area, no police reports, etc.) and one party is just being an idiot, I think 99% of people YMers could defend it themselves. It doesn't take a law degree to write out "Everything X alleges is wrong and this is why, please deny his/her request." But when you're dealing with blended families, alimony, different states, allegations of abuse/neglect, or other dicey issues, you probably want an attorney.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jun 19, 2013 22:21:36 GMT -5
I understand why some dads get frustrated and throw up their hands and move on. When you have someone playing you and creating non-stop drama sometimes you have to walk away from the craziness before it does you in. Really? I don't understand throwing your hands up and moving on at all. But maybe that's because that's exactly what my father did and it was pretty awful for us. After my younger sister and I were born less than 2 years apart, my mother was exhibiting signs of full blown serious mental illness. She probably had the tendencies before that and being overwhelmed/stressed was enough to provide that last little push over the edge. I know it must have been horrible to live with someone that crazy - I know because I then had to live with her for the next 18 years - so I'm sure it must have been very unpleasant for my father and it was reasonable that he wanted a divorce. What was not at all reasonable was that even though he lived less than 45 minutes away for all my childhood, he considered it too much trouble dealing with my mother to visit or intervene. He knew we lived in a falling down shack that was later condemned, he knew we didn't always have clothes or food, he knew she was abusive, he knew we had bruises. Heck, he knew she was crazy. But that was all much too difficult to deal with. He had a good new life and felt it was enough to send a monthly child support check. While he and his new family lived in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, going to good private schools, wearing designer clothes and eating plenty of food. They didn't have a totally peaceful family life, but I never saw any of them with bruises. A few years ago I asked him why he abandoned us to that. He shrugged and said that he couldn't deal with my mother, that she was "crazy." He's right, she was, but that doesn't excuse him leaving the kids he chose to create. So, no I do not understand at all the idea of walking away from a bad situation involving your children simply because it is difficult or even crazy. Good parents don't do that. If the ex really is crazy, that's all the more reason that the dad needs to dig in and be involved. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but wanted to comment on this: Milee - I'm so sorry your father did not step up for you and your sister. Your post struck me to the core. It hit me simply because this very scenario is what I told my DH when he wasn't sure whether or not he should ask the courts for custody of his kids - and his ex isn't nearly as awful as you describe life with your mom.
DH didn't want the kids to hate him and have the perception that he "ripped them away from their mom" (he himself grew up without a mom, with an abusive father). My stance was - "the kids are not getting what they need from their mom's house to help them become functioning, well-rounded adults - they're learning a warped sense of what is "normal" from her. Would you rather they hate you now, as children, when most kids hate their parents for one reason or another anyway; or would you rather they hate you later, as adults, when they're asking you, why didn't you do something back then to help us?" DH did receive custody and 6 years later, our family is struggling along because of the drama the kids' mom still inserts into our lives. However, I wouldn't have it any other way. I know the kids have a stable home life, I know they are safe, I know they are learning the skills they will need to be great adults, and I know none of this would have happened if they had stayed with their mom. Hugs!! [img]http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/grouphug.gif[/img]
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 20, 2013 10:32:48 GMT -5
Only read page 1, but wanted to comment that there was a study I read recently that indicated that women felt they were mothers as soon as they decided they would carry a pregnancy to term. Men didn't feel like they were fathers until they were around and actively involved in the kids life. So women were moms while pregnant but men weren't dads if they decided not to show up.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 20, 2013 10:55:41 GMT -5
Now that I finished reading this - JFC, some of you women just hate women so much, don't you?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 20, 2013 11:11:45 GMT -5
Now that I finished reading this - JFC, some of you women just hate women so much, don't you? Yup!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 20, 2013 15:45:25 GMT -5
Only read page 1, but wanted to comment that there was a study I read recently that indicated that women felt they were mothers as soon as they decided they would carry a pregnancy to term. Men didn't feel like they were fathers until they were around and actively involved in the kids life. So women were moms while pregnant but men weren't dads if they decided not to show up. I didn't feel like a mom the minute I decided to carry the pregnancy, but I can certainly understand how after carrying a 25 pound bowling ball on my bladder for a few months and having an abnormally large baby head blast through my lady cave, I was a little more vested than my husband.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 20, 2013 16:03:14 GMT -5
Now that I finished reading this - JFC, some of you women just hate women so much, don't you? I disliked (borderline hated) H's ex for a long time because it was her goal in life to make us miserable. And while she hurt our pocket books, she didn't make us miserable. She did, however, make her KIDS miserable, and that is the real shame. She's actually getting better now, ~10 years later. But this is just one person. In general the Mom is the one getting screwed after the divorce, getting measly child support of $200/month or something. I think that's all ridiculous. But I also think that the Dads get screwed pretty hard core in a lot of circumstances.
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cubefarmer
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Post by cubefarmer on Jun 20, 2013 19:48:28 GMT -5
"Happy Father's Day, if any"
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