Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 16:01:37 GMT -5
I don't know why your friend insisted you short-sell your house, or why your parents cut off contact with you for a month, but if they love you and care about you, I've got to think it was because they wanted the best for you. Unless you have reason to believe they had selfish motivations--which is a whole other ball of wax--what else could their insistence possibly be? A need to dominate? Anger directed at you? They must have given you a reason. Oh, they absolutely were doing what they THOUGHT was best for me. They wanted to protect me & thought they were helping. I would never say otherwise. The problem is that they weren't helping & weren't supportive & I ended up sorry that I told anyone what was going on. I ended up feeling worse and more alone when I thought I was reaching out for support & being strong. All I am saying is that people that don't understand try to be supportive, but often do it in the wrong way & that is why victims often are silent. Because talking ends up being worse that keeping it to yourself. It is kind of like the alcoholics wife that thinks she is helping by throwing out the liquor. Or the mom that thinks she is helping when she bails her son out of jail for the 3rd time. Or the mom I believe in your story that thinks she is helping by tracking her druggy son & giving him clothes & food. These people are all loving, caring people attempting to help the ones they love. The problem is they really aren't helping. My family & friends were trying to help, but they really weren't helping me. They made things significantly worse for me. Two questions then come up naturally: 1. Are you confident that you're able to judge objectively what you did and didn't need? Are you positive that you would have taken all the right steps and taken them just as quickly had your support group not taken a hard line? and 2. Aside from some added praise and positive feedback (which I admit can also be excellent motivators) from your support group, what would you say they could have done to "really" help you? You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but I'm always critical of one-sided assessments--and yours is exemplary, because you make your friends, family, and support group sound like a callous mob without an ounce of compassion--and I'm inherently skeptical of people's capacity for self-assessment. ETA: I see POM beat me to it.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 14, 2013 16:03:21 GMT -5
I absolutely see what you are getting at. What I am saying is that a person doesn't have to be physically detained to be rooted to the spot. What if Mrs. Virgil grabs one of your children, holds a knife to the child's throat and says to you, "If you leave this house, I will slit his throat." You know Mrs. Virgil and you know what she's capable of, or at least you aren't sure she won't. Now you aren't physically detained. But you are emotionally detained. This is what I was getting at. This basically would leave me with no other choice but to stay (at that moment). That doesn't mean I'm choosing to be hurt. So yes. In some instances, victims do not possess free-will as they see it. It's difficult to explain and even harder to understand, but it's a truth.
(I didn't mean for the above example to be in any way insulting to Mrs. Virgil or to you. Just providing an example. It's not that I think anything like that could happen in your home.)
I disagree. I do not believe the two are interchangeable at all. As far as some people being deluded....no question they are. That still doesn't change the fact that they aren't choosing to be abused. And certainly we can cite specific examples of very mentally ill people who want to be abused and seek out those who will comply, but the one case in 1,000,000 is not what I'm talking about.
Of course I hold that same view. Being dead is, to me, better than living a lifetime of suffering. That doesn't mean I think that someone who doesn't feel the same way I do is making a choice to be hurt.
There is a huge difference, but I can't explain it any better than I already have. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Which gets back to my original statement. An addict is making a choice to do drugs. A victim is not making a choice to be abused, which is why I took issue with the comparison in the first place.
Intersting. So the 3rd time is the magic number? The 3rd time is when it becomes her own fault and proves that she made a choice to get raped? Why not the 2nd time? Or the 4th time?
Great conversation, Virgil. It's about quitting time. Have a good weekend.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 14, 2013 16:03:44 GMT -5
I don't think it is 'blaming the victim' that is keeping real changes from being made. It is the lack of proof, lack of cooperation from the victims, really no different than trying to clean up a gang infested neighborhood where nobody will work with the police or testify in court. If some guy attacks me while I'm walking to my car after work, hell will freeze over before I'll friend him on facebook, let him live with me, or give him access to my children. That is the difference between the parking lot example and domestic violence. Just as there are some people who for whom not having to work is more important than having a roof over their heads, some people are perfectly willing to put themselves in danger to keep a guy/girl around. There really isn't that much a person on the outside can do when someone has such effed up priorities. Wanting to be loved and adored is just as natural and normal as wanting to spend your days sleeping and playing instead of working, but there are lines most of us won't cross in order to fulfill our natural desires.
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Queen of Interesting Nuts
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Post by Queen of Interesting Nuts on Jun 14, 2013 16:06:49 GMT -5
It starts young too. I think in my DD BFF case her dad is an asshole. Does it have something to do with just wanting a man.
If anyone touched my DD I would get them.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 14, 2013 16:08:29 GMT -5
::The explaination was that despite it seeming like these women have a choice, psychologically they really don't. ::
Was the explanation really that women are just so weak-willed they are able to be controlled to the point that they really don't have a choice? That doesn't seem very complimentary to women in general. When's the last time you heard of a man killing his wife because that was the only way he could escape her physical abuse? Why does it need to be complimentary? Victims are phsychologically beaten down. That isn't supposed to be complimentary to anyone. Victims are psychologically beaten down, according to you to the point they no longer have a choice except to kill the abuser. But men are also abused, and you don't hear nearly the number of stories about men killing their wives to escape the abuse. So then why are women the only ones so easily controlled by their abusers? The idea that women are so weak-minded so as to be easily controlled in the same circumstances where men are controlled isn't complimentary to women as a whole. You know, unless it's just an excuse to kill someone because you're pissed at them.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 14, 2013 16:09:47 GMT -5
Please educate us on what helping is in such circumstances. I would listen (but after so many repeat same ole same oles I had to stop as it was making me nuts) or offer "I'm sorry you are going through that" and "You can stay here until you decide what you want to do" (which I probably wouldn't do again to risk our well being if a dangerous situation) but what else can one do in any of those situations without being an enabler? I hope I'll never know anybody again who will need it but if they do - I'd like to know what is needed above what I've tried to do to help.
I am not sure what someone can do either. I had to distance myself away from a good friend several years ago because I just couldn't deal with it any longer. It is difficult to sit and watch someone you care about getting hurt over and over again. I refused to watch it any longer. I decided she was the only one who could help herself. I could talk until I was blue in the face it wasn't going to make any difference but I certainly wasn't going to sit by and watch this happening. It is kind of like when someone comes to YM and keeps talking about their money problems and everyone gives them suggestions but they refuse to change. It is extremely frustrating and eventually you just give up. Maybe that makes me cold but I can't do the "everything is going to be alright" crap when it isn't going to be alright. And I can't sit around watching someone keep making the same mistake over and over again.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 14, 2013 16:10:32 GMT -5
::This basically would leave me with no other choice but to stay (at that moment).::
There is such a massive difference between "I have no choice" and "I have a very easy choice" that you seem to either be intentionally or unintentionally ignoring.
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Queen of Interesting Nuts
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Post by Queen of Interesting Nuts on Jun 14, 2013 16:12:43 GMT -5
Yes but you don't have to disengage and things don't get fixed because of some great posts. Sometimes it is ongoing. I am going to have an ongoing situational issue for a while. I don't doubt that I will come on here to vent/complain/ about it. And it isn't like I don't do the things that have been posted but my situation will be dependent on another person.
Edited to add. I am a better person for listening to people all over the country from this board. That is what I try to remember.
Hope you are doing better Angel.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 14, 2013 16:15:45 GMT -5
::This basically would leave me with no other choice but to stay (at that moment).:: There is such a massive difference between "I have no choice" and "I have a very easy choice" that you seem to either be intentionally or unintentionally ignoring. I didn't ignore anything. If you had posted the entire quote instead of a portion of it, you'd see that. Did you intentionally or unintentionally ignore it?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 16:17:55 GMT -5
It's a matter of what's logical and reasonable.
In your example, you go out of your way describing the myriad changes that have been put into place to ensure a safer parking lot. You appear to be making the argument that Jane could reasonably believe she was safe in the parking lot. Ergo, I agreed with you.
I stipulated that if equally radical measures were taken between the second and third instances, you could still conceivably convince a reasonable person that a parking lot where two extremely devastating, extremely unlikely events occurred is now safe. Maybe if the parking lot has armed robots every 10 feet and a police chopper hovering constantly overhead.
After three instances, I can't conceive of anything a person could say or do that would convince Jane--assuming Jane is reasonable--that this parking lot is safe. Ergo Jane is either deluded, which was one half of my previous conclusion, or Jane is making a conscious choice to be raped. If this situation actually happened in real life, I'd be far more likely to believe that Jane was insane: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Otherwise, for this example in particular, the third or fourth time is it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 14, 2013 16:19:07 GMT -5
Oh, they absolutely were doing what they THOUGHT was best for me. They wanted to protect me & thought they were helping. I would never say otherwise. The problem is that they weren't helping & weren't supportive & I ended up sorry that I told anyone what was going on. I ended up feeling worse and more alone when I thought I was reaching out for support & being strong. All I am saying is that people that don't understand try to be supportive, but often do it in the wrong way & that is why victims often are silent. Because talking ends up being worse that keeping it to yourself. It is kind of like the alcoholics wife that thinks she is helping by throwing out the liquor. Or the mom that thinks she is helping when she bails her son out of jail for the 3rd time. Or the mom I believe in your story that thinks she is helping by tracking her druggy son & giving him clothes & food. These people are all loving, caring people attempting to help the ones they love. The problem is they really aren't helping. My family & friends were trying to help, but they really weren't helping me. They made things significantly worse for me. Please educate us on what helping is in such circumstances. I would listen (but after so many repeat same ole same oles I had to stop as it was making me nuts) or offer "I'm sorry you are going through that" and "You can stay here until you decide what you want to do" but what else can one do in any of those situations without being an enabler? I hope I'll never know anybody again who will need it but if they do - I'd like to know what is needed above what I've tried to do to help. I'll be honest, I don't know how you help someone that keeps getting physically abused. I was only hit one time ever. We had had quite a tumultuous relationship, but it had never escalated to violence in any form prior to that. So for women who keep going back time & again & keep calling when they get hit again - I don't know. My best advice would be to try to get them to call the police each time. Try to get them to talk to a women's violence support group each time. Try to get them to read "codependent no more" if their spouse has any sort of drug/alcohol/gambling/etc type issues that keep her wanting to rescue him. Take pictures if there are injuries. I don't really know, but I think you may not want to offer them a place to stay if this is a habit. You are just ingraining yourself in as part of the cycle & enable it to continue if you do that. Offer to take them to a women's shelter where they will be forced to talk to people who understand the issue. Finding someone they can talk to who has been abused would help greatly, because they will understand. If she is actually truly leaving him & this isn't just part of a cycle that you have seen over & over, then be totally supportive. It was really hard for me because it had only happened once. So there was a lot of "well, it won't happen again" "it was because he was drunk" "he won't escalate". I had a lot of self doubt & I loved him more than anything. I left for the kids, not for myself. I needed people to tell me I was doing a good job, not keep bugging me about the steps I hadn't taken yet. I needed support for what I was doing right, not told what they felt I was doing wrong, or worse cut-off when I felt I was doing the right thing. I needed someone to understand that this was incredibly hard for me & they didn't understand that. What surprised me more than anything, his friends & brother were totally understanding & supportive. When I was hurting & crying because I really did want to rescue him & bail him out of jail even though I knew I shouldn't, my parents told me I was an idiot & that they couldn't believe I was acting like that, after all why would I ever want to help someone who did this to me. His brother told me "I know you love him, but he fucked up & did this to himself. You are absolutely doing the right thing leaving his ass in jail. Do not second guess yourself & bail him out". I think it is because my friends and parents immediately viewed him as lower than dirt & undeserving of even a thought. Whereas his brother & friends cared for him, so they could understand a little of where I was coming from in still loving him despite everything. But, they also understood that I couldn't let him come home & supported me ending the relationship & not bailing him out of jail. They didn't make me feel stupid because it was difficult & they supported the steps I was taking. Maybe I just needed someone to listen & not judge me because I found this difficult.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 14, 2013 16:20:38 GMT -5
::I absolutely see what you are getting at. What I am saying is that a person doesn't have to be physically detained to be rooted to the spot. What if Mrs. Virgil grabs one of your children, holds a knife to the child's throat and says to you, "If you leave this house, I will slit his throat." You know Mrs. Virgil and you know what she's capable of, or at least you aren't sure she won't. Now you aren't physically detained. But you are emotionally detained. This is what I was getting at. This basically would leave me with no other choice but to stay (at that moment). That doesn't mean I'm choosing to be hurt. So yes. In some instances, victims do not possess free-will as they see it. It's difficult to explain and even harder to understand, but it's a truth.::
There's the entire quote (well the small paragraph, though I didn't think you'd need to be reminded of what you said frankly). And still, you ignore the difference between "no choice" and "easy choice". You have a choice in that situation, it happens to be a very simple one for you. That doesn't negate that a choice exists.
Is this just a martyr syndrome? Like things in life are beyond your control and so you simply decide that your actions are not your own choice but are requirements that you must follow through with because you have no free will? I guess I just don't get people who take decisions they make and pretend that they literally had no decision to make.
::I didn't ignore anything. If you had posted the entire quote instead of a portion of it, you'd see that. Did you intentionally or unintentionally ignore it?::
Fair enough, it could easily be that rather than ignoring it you simply don't understand it. That's where I was going with "unintentionally ignoring" it, I thought it sounded a lot nicer than saying you don't understand the concept of having choices.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 14, 2013 16:22:16 GMT -5
Why does it need to be complimentary? Victims are phsychologically beaten down. That isn't supposed to be complimentary to anyone. Victims are psychologically beaten down, according to you to the point they no longer have a choice except to kill the abuser. But men are also abused, and you don't hear nearly the number of stories about men killing their wives to escape the abuse. So then why are women the only ones so easily controlled by their abusers? The idea that women are so weak-minded so as to be easily controlled in the same circumstances where men are controlled isn't complimentary to women as a whole. You know, unless it's just an excuse to kill someone because you're pissed at them. I think it's because women in these cases so often have children and can't support them. Yes, subjecting them to this kind of dysfunction isn't good either but having a place to sleep with food seems to make sense when you are beaten down, exhausted and not thinking clearly. I wonder if Angel didn't have such a great job that earned a healthy income (all to her credit I might add) if she'd still be in that situation had HE had the job making the good money. It does take significant strength to break up a family, uproot them from their friends, your friends, familiarity, etc. You don't just find a new place to live. You don't magically have beds for you kids, bedding, clothes for school, a full refrigerator... and the like. I think that is why so many stay. When you think of all that needs to be done and all the questions that will be asked from well-meaning people (family, friends, school, job) it is such a huge weight to bear they just talk themselves into thinking they can be nicer to their abuser, or quieter (or whatever sets the abuse off) and things will get better. I think that's part of the reason I never had kids. I saw how hard it was for my mom the one time she did grab us and leave and where would she go with 2 kids? Who'd watch us if she found a job? And I'm sure us crying that we wanted to go home was helpful. I don't blame the victims up to a point - depending on their situations (many are different) but that is the usual circumstances that I know about with many women including my own mom. I didn't lose patience until after we all flew the coop and she was still doing the same crap. We all had homes she could stay at, etc. She no longer had excuses.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 14, 2013 16:25:38 GMT -5
OMG!! Now I see what you mean about them not being helpful. Kind of like telling somebody to put their hand back on the burner after you've been burned. I'm surprised you didn't have a nervous breakdown. I remember your thread back when it was happening and and I remember what was said to you. Some was very helpful and some blew my mind. You always seemed so clear headed through it all and I admired you for it. I'd have been a mess.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 14, 2013 16:26:53 GMT -5
POM - Everything in your post really applies to men who are being abused also though. I mean it can't just be women with no jobs and men who are highly successful with lots of money that are abused right? If not, then that means all of htat applies to both sexes, which still raises the question of why this psychological control where murder is the only escape seems to apply so much more to women than men.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 14, 2013 16:28:01 GMT -5
OK, so again, I can't read the whole thread right now - but are you freaking kidding me - this is to people who think she should have been fired. OMG, how wrong is that ? Take a ticket. Stand in line with the other 99 posters that think it's unconscionable and that there must be a better solution but have absolutely no clue what that is or how they'd sell it to concerned parents. Well, if the parents are so concern, let them keep their children under a locked down at homes. Bc every time their child leaves the house there is a chance that some maniac will start shooting at them in school, grocery store, youth center, post office, play ground, park, zoo, McD, doctor's office, day care - oh let's not get into what could happened at day care centers - I could go on and on and on. Are we going to stop hiring anyone who was a DV victim? Is it going to be a new question on an employment application? Is my life any less valuable than of a child? Using the logic that an abuser can follow his victim, should all DV victims be send off to a special place so none of us are in harms way ? Solution? Here is your solution. Take DV seriously against THE ABUSER! Instead of filling up jails with drug users, put an asshole in the very.first.time for at least 30 days and make them go through a anger management and psych evaluation during that time. that's just a start
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 14, 2013 16:29:48 GMT -5
OMG!! Now I see what you mean about them not being helpful. Kind of like telling somebody to put their hand back on the burner after you've been burned. I'm surprised you didn't have a nervous breakdown. I remember your thread back when it was happening and and I remember what was said to you. Some was very helpful and some blew my mind. You always seemed so clear headed through it all and I admired you for it. I'd have been a mess.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 14, 2013 16:30:28 GMT -5
I agree. We need stricter laws against this type of harrassment and stalking.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 14, 2013 16:32:03 GMT -5
::Bc every time their child leaves the house there is a chance that some maniac will start shooting at them in school, grocery store, youth center, post office, play ground, park, zoo, McD, doctor's office, day care - oh let's not get into what could happened at day care centers - I could go on and on and on.::
A chance, and if an employee at those places said the place needed to be locked down because someone was a danger while they were there, then yeah, they shouldn't take them there. There's a difference between something that's "a chance" in the way that everything that's a chance, and something that's a real threat.
::Are we going to stop hiring anyone who was a DV victim?::
While I understand the argument, there's a difference between "anyone who was a DV victim" and "someone who was a DV victim, still sees their abuser as a threat, and works around a bunch of kids and suspects the abuser not to care about showing up to that jobsite to do damage".
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 14, 2013 16:34:03 GMT -5
::Is my life any less valuable than of a child?::
No, but presumably you're a lot more able to defend yourself than a group of children who have been put into a room and ordered by adults and parents to go there and sit. Both physically and mentally able to defend yourself.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 14, 2013 16:35:45 GMT -5
POM - Everything in your post really applies to men who are being abused also though. I mean it can't just be women with no jobs and men who are highly successful with lots of money that are abused right? If not, then that means all of htat applies to both sexes, which still raises the question of why this psychological control where murder is the only escape seems to apply so much more to women than men. I did state (somewhere - I've been chatty today) that he/she being abused... But in my experience it's always been the woman. I know it happens to men too but I've not known any personally. Yes, psychological control where murder is the only escape (in their minds I'm sure but for some it may be true) happens to both sexes. According to my mom (Bless her heart) that's probably what I'm doing to my DH. He's over 200 lbs. (I'm 125 lbs.) He has the great job (I quit working years ago and DH suggested it and loves that I don't work), etc. but he's abused and I control him. I guess I put too much bleach in his undies or something. She did admit that my good taste in men was from watching her and learning what NOT to do. But her saying that was so absurd that DH and I laugh about it. If I ask him to do something he used to say "Stop abusing me or I'll tell your mother!" That's just how we roll and it works for us. We be crazy 'cause we come from crazy.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 16:42:32 GMT -5
Take a ticket. Stand in line with the other 99 posters that think it's unconscionable and that there must be a better solution but have absolutely no clue what that is or how they'd sell it to concerned parents. Well, if the parents are so concern, let them keep their children under a locked down at homes. Bc every time their child leaves the house there is a chance that some maniac will start shooting at them in school, grocery store, youth center, post office, play ground, park, zoo, McD, doctor's office, day care - oh let's not get into what could happened at day care centers - I could go on and on and on. Are we going to stop hiring anyone who was a DV victim? Is it going to be a new question on an employment application? Is my life any less valuable than of a child? Using the logic that an abuser can follow his victim, should all DV victims be send off to a special place so none of us are in harms way ? Solution? Here is your solution. Take DV seriously against THE ABUSER! Instead of filling up jails with drug users, put an asshole in the very.first.time for at least 30 days and make them go through a anger management and psych evaluation during that time. that's just a start Posters have suggested everything from killing him to shipping him to some forsaken wasteland middle of nowhere... like Detroit. I hold the dubious honour of being the first poster in the thread to suggest vigilantism. The core issue is what the school does in the meantime, and if you go back to pages 2-4 of the thread, you'll see that they had very good reason to believe this man is (was) a threat to staff, parents, and students. There's some issue of whether the diocese might have found her a job somewhere "out of harm's way", but none of us have any idea whether such a job could be created or whether it would land the diocese in hot water with parents even if it could be. Nor does anyone know what, if anything, various stakeholders have done beyond issuing the official statement.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 14, 2013 16:45:50 GMT -5
[Two questions then come up naturally: 1. Are you confident that you're able to judge objectively what you did and didn't need? Are you positive that you would have taken all the right steps and taken them just as quickly had your support group not taken a hard line? and 2. Aside from some added praise and positive feedback (which I admit can also be excellent motivators) from your support group, what would you say they could have done to "really" help you? You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but I'm always critical of one-sided assessments--and yours is exemplary, because you make your friends, family, and support group sound like a callous mob without an ounce of compassion--and I'm inherently skeptical of people's capacity for self-assessment. ETA: I see POM beat me to it. 1. Who knows. I feel confident, but maybe I am delusional & don't see things clearly. I feel positive I would have taken the same steps with support. I not bail him out & I did not let him move home. Those were my plans prior to everyone deciding I wasn't doing enough. I really think that I would have stuck to those plans with support, I don't see how I would have stuck to them better being cut off. 2. Probably nothing but try to get me counseling. I think all they really could do is tell me I was doing the right thing. And they were at first. Problems came when my parents brought a realtor to the house. They wanted me to start the process that day & start moving in with them. They were asking me to give up my home, get rid of my dogs, leave my job, and move in with them. I felt they were asking me to give up everything & it was too much. I said I wanted to stay & I was going to try to keep the house. My mom threw a hissy fit, they left in a big huff & didn't speak to me for a month. They were pushing too hard. I know they thought it was best, but they pushed too hard for a step I wasn't ready to take. My life was a jumbled mess & I didn't want to make a huge decision like that too quickly because I might regret it. It was too much to process with everything else I was already giong through. I think I absolutely made the right decision there - I still have the house, no longer underwater, I still have the dogs, my job is freaking fantastic - it would have been a huge mistake careerwise to leave, & I didn't have to try to live with my parents, which would have been a disaster.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 14, 2013 16:55:43 GMT -5
Sometimes people that want certain things a certain way (you and their grandbabies closer) try to force issues that aren't necessarily in your best interest but in theirs. That was just the perfect time to slip in while you were down to try to get you home. They did it with love, I'm sure, but I think they also did from a bit of a selfish place as that's what THEY wanted and not what you wanted.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 17:03:56 GMT -5
Well... there is such a thing as being "too pushy", and this sounds like it fits the bill, but I hope you don't hold it against them.
Also, from what you described to POM, your situation definitely isn't the "perpetual victim" scenario where a victim refuses to flee (or even acknowledge) a chronic, escalating pattern of violence. It sounds as though you knew immediately what had to be done and you were determined to do it.
All of my discussion with GEL re choice pertained more to the "perpetual victim" case, and as several people have pointed out (including myself, indirectly), it's all but impossible to comfort such an individual without inadvertently enabling them. As I said, my parents tried that in two situations and circumstances deteriorated slowly but surely. On the third time around they took a hard line, and the victim eventually took measures.
Just as an aside: a person with a worsening mental disorder falls in this same boat of "tell them what they need to hear, even if they don't want to hear it, even if they break off the friendship". I can tell you from first-hand experience that people will deny to the heavens they have a problem and that playing into their denial to comfort them is a guaranteed-to-fail approach.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 17:07:03 GMT -5
Actually, it occurs to me now that "battered wife syndrome" is the syndrome that hoops alluded to earlier. Lawyers use it to explain why wives murder their husbands. But you know what I mean.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 14, 2013 17:16:18 GMT -5
Slightly OT, but this is not the approach to take with people with dementia, Alzheimer's and similar memory disorders. They get to a point they aren't aware how bad it is and its not worth arguing everyday nor distressing them over it. As much as I personally wish it didn't need to be this way, humoring them, changing the subject, re-directing, etc. is standard practice by nurses and other health care providers.
You don't want to play to the denial but it also can backfire if you try to move someone too quickly. The pace you'd be happy them to change at and the pace they are willing to move forward is probably different and slower. I think very special people can deal with moving someone forward slowly as long as they are moving forward.
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 14, 2013 17:24:18 GMT -5
If you're going to be working with children, then yes, I think it is valid for an employer to ask 'Is hiring you going to put these children in danger?' A lot of us won't take certain jobs that we want to do, because we know it would put innocent people in danger.
I don't think your life is any more valuable than A child, but your livelihood and convenience certainly isn't more important that the lives of a whole classroom full of kids along with a few dozen teachers. And may I add, they didn't kill her, they fired her. To portray it as her life vs a child's life is melodramatic at best.
There is a big difference between sending your child to a school where some maniac might show up, and sending your child to a school where a maniac has already shown up and will continue to show up over and over again because his ex wife teaches there and he has a history of this kind of behavior.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 17:25:15 GMT -5
Slightly OT, but this is not the approach to take with people with dementia, Alzheimer's and similar memory disorders. They get to a point they aren't aware how bad it is and its not worth arguing everyday nor distressing them over it. As much as I personally wish it didn't need to be this way, humoring them, changing the subject, re-directing, etc. is standard practice by nurses and other health care providers. You don't want to play to the denial but it also can backfire if you try to move someone too quickly. The pace you'd be happy them to change at and the pace they are willing to move forward is probably different and slower. I think very special people can deal with moving someone forward slowly as long as they are moving forward. My particular experience was with paranoid schizophrenia. And the hard line stance is as much for your protection as it is for the afflicted, believe me. I'd always rolled my eyes at the portrayal of paranoid schizophrenics in movies, thinking it was the usual over-the-top Hollywoodism, but sweet baby Buddha was I wrong. It destroys a person, everyone they love, and everything they touch. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 14, 2013 17:25:58 GMT -5
::The explaination was that despite it seeming like these women have a choice, psychologically they really don't. ::
Was the explanation really that women are just so weak-willed they are able to be controlled to the point that they really don't have a choice? That doesn't seem very complimentary to women in general. When's the last time you heard of a man killing his wife because that was the only way he could escape her physical abuse? I haven't, yet I can find daily occurrences of men killing their wives, SOs, or girlfriends because the women left them. They have a choice too yet their mental map has convinced them they can't survive and move on without killing the offender in their opinion. I don't think its necessarily weak-willed except programmed helplessness. And if you let it get to a certain point, they probably are right their choice is mostly get killed in the future at home or definitely get killed sooner by leaving. Those cases do have a real low probablity of a happy ending for the abused indiviual. Plus my guess is many of these women develop depression and other disorders that turn chemical making it even harder for them to extricate themselves. Its a lot like boiling water for frogs or lobsters. The best way to exit and be safe is to leave almost as soon as you realize something isn't right.
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