chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 30, 2013 19:02:19 GMT -5
I was pulled over a few years ago; the officer said I made an illegal u-turn too close to an intersection. (I pulled into a parking lot and then turned around to go in the opposite direction. I still don't think I did anything wrong.) He gave me a ticket for not wearing a seat belt, even though I was, because that didn't have any points and a u-turn would have been 2 or 3 points on my license. Not wearing a seat belt is a primary offense in NJ, so you can be pulled over just for that reason. Every one in the front seat is supposed to use a seat belt; I'm not sure about adults in the back seat. My father never wears a seat belt unless I ask him to when we will be driving on a highway. that officer could have let you off with a warning.... Ugh... I got a ticket a few weeks ago for not wearing a seat belt... and I wasn't driving. I always do when I drive, but never when I'm a passenger. I'm short, so the seat belt is always cutting into my neck! Anyway, the ticket was $110!! 3 years ago, my dad had his license suspended for a month for having so many seat belt tickets! There was also a failure to stop, too, I think. He thought it was great that he got to be chauffeured around for a month! But he thinks the seat belt law is a violation of his civil rights... We're in Oregon, FWIW. Argh, stupid PB. We were just discussing the other day who gets the ticket if passengers aren't wearing belts. The driver or the passenger in question? I guess that answers that. FWIW, you might try finding a seatbelt coozy for your cut-into-the-neck problem. I think they are supposed to help with that. in Maine, the driver gets the ticket, regardless of which vehicle occupant is without a belt. when I argued my case as a driver whose passenger didn't have one on, the cop matter-of-factly told me that it was my car and I shouldn't have put it in motion if all passengers weren't buckled up. thankfully, Maine and MA don't share ticketing information, so I avoided a surcharge. I made my friend pay the ticket, it was his anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 19:07:08 GMT -5
Chiver, that's why I put "warned" in quotation marks. I don't think it was an official warning. He was just lecturing me about my dog being unrestrained in the back seat. He also "warned" me that the legislature was considering a law about this subject. It didn't pass.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 30, 2013 19:12:12 GMT -5
There's another interesting thing at work with the whole seatbelt thing being a personal choice What if the accident isn't the fault of the person NOT wearing a seat belt? What if they are injuried as part of abigger accident - what if they sustain horrific injuries (maybe they would have had a better outcome if they had worn a seatbelt). Is this another case of "too bad for you"? They didn't cause the accident. I think this depends on whether you're talking about currently, or in this magical world where there are no seatbelt laws. I think there's a point to argue that if your injuries are partially sustained due to the fact you were breaking the law, you can argue it. Probably difficult to prove somewhat. If seatbelt laws are repealed, then no, it's the fault of the person who caused the accident. The person not wearing a seatbelt has no contribution to the injury at that point. and on the flip side, how does it work now in those cases where someone who didn't cause an accident sustained worse injuries due to the mandatory seatbelt than if he'd gone without? are those additional injuries charged to the person who caused the accident, or to the government that mandated the seatbelt? we really can't assume that the driver would have worn the seatbelt if the law wasn't in place. a generation from now, maybe. not yet.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 30, 2013 19:18:08 GMT -5
susana, in MA, a "warning" is a written one. if you don't get something on a piece of paper, you "got off" instead. my bad.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 30, 2013 19:20:18 GMT -5
catching up on this thread now, apologies if anyone else has addressed this. donning the flame suit now....this isn't necessarily my opinion, just raising the question. when I was a kid, my mom argued with my pediatrician pretty much every visit about seat belts. her basis was the rash of child fatalities in vehicular accidents in our area, many resulting in fires, where the restraints across and through car seats couldn't be released in time to save the child. given that the minimum age/size to be able to ride in a car has been raised almost to puberty in some states, I think this is a valid question to consider as there are so many more kids riding in car seats now than when we were kids. and seatbelts haven't really changed much over those years....being basic mechanical and all. that said, I do wear my seat belt across my waist. I pull the shoulder harness over my head and the driver's seat whenever possible. having survived a serious car accident where the majority of my injuries were as a result of the shoulder harness NOT engaging on impact, I'm happy to entertain an argument against my opinion and behavior. I think there is probably a higher incident rate of children being ejected from a car during an accident or severely injured or killed by being tossed around the inside of a vehicle not wearing a seatbelt than there is of kids dying in a car fire unable to get out of the seatbelt. I'm inclined to agree with your guess at the statistics. I'm just relaying my contrarian mother's argument that my pediatrician's opinion wasn't the only valid opinion. as I said, I wear a seatbelt now. sort of.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 19:20:37 GMT -5
I think if the adults choose not to wear a seatbelt, that's their choice. However, there should be a stiff penalty if children do not have their seatbelts on or are not properly secured in whatever car seat/restraint is appropriate for their age since they cannot make those decisions for themselves. catching up on this thread now, apologies if anyone else has addressed this. donning the flame suit now....this isn't necessarily my opinion, just raising the question. when I was a kid, my mom argued with my pediatrician pretty much every visit about seat belts. her basis was the rash of child fatalities in vehicular accidents in our area, many resulting in fires, where the restraints across and through car seats couldn't be released in time to save the child. given that the minimum age/size to be able to ride in a car has been raised almost to puberty in some states, I think this is a valid question to consider as there are so many more kids riding in car seats now than when we were kids. and seatbelts haven't really changed much over those years....being basic mechanical and all. that said, I do wear my seat belt across my waist. I pull the shoulder harness over my head and the driver's seat whenever possible. having survived a serious car accident where the majority of my injuries were as a result of the shoulder harness NOT engaging on impact, I'm happy to entertain an argument against my opinion and behavior. that's a very dangerous way to wear it.....it pulls the lap belt part up onto the non-bony part of your abdomen rather than across your hip bones and in an accident can cause serious internal injuries. It also means your upper body is going to slam into the airbag or the steering wheel and can cause your spine to stretch.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 30, 2013 19:30:05 GMT -5
Chiver makes a good point. I have 3 kids under 6. One is in a regular seatbelt with a booster seat, which he works himself. One is in a PIA 5 point safety harness. And one is in one of those infant carseats (pumpkin seat) and will shortly be moving to the PIA 5 point harness. Getting 2 kids out of those 5 point safety harnesses is not a quick process, and if there was a fire or we went into water, it is rather unlikely that we'd all get out in time. On the other hand, the vast majorty of accidents don't involve cars catching fire or falling into deep water. Everyone who owns and operates a vehicle should have one of these kept in the glove compartment or vehicle console. It's an emergency escape tool. It can shatter a car side window with a tap and cut seat belts during an emergency. This one in particular also has a flashlight and emergency flashing hazard light. They are inexpensive but can and do save lives.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 30, 2013 19:54:15 GMT -5
Your odds of dying when on a snowmobile are much higher than when driving a car. I find that important to note, apparently you don't or at least you don't feel it applies. I don't think you showed data that supports your first statement, though you are probably correct. In the context here of whether or not to wear a seatbelt, nope, I don't see how it applies. You are right, I didn't show data, I assumed it was common sense. There is 1 vehicle fatality per approximately 91 million miles driven. I don't see any way that any sort of miles or hours riding a snowmobile could not be higher. But, here is a study to back my point www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1308343/pdf/pubhealthrep00029-0050.pdfIn context of seatbelts, nope snowmobile deaths have nothing to do with it. In terms of this conversation, for some reason jkapp felt the need to bring up snowmobiles, you commented on his comparison & then I commented on yours. It isn't like I started talking about snowmobiles out of the blue. So in the context of this thread, I think my comments apply.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 20:00:42 GMT -5
I only read the first and last page.....
20 years ago I had a car that had the top part of the seat belt automatically slide into place when you started the car. After owning that car, I was so use to being buckled in, I don't feel right in the car if my seatbelt isn't on. I always fasten my seat belt, even if I'm just going around the corner. It's just habit now.
About a year ago, I got pulled over by the police. He walked up to my car and said "Oh, I thought you didn't have your seat belt on. I see it now." I was pretty annoyed. There's too much going on in our area for our police to be spending time pulling people over because they "thought" they didn't have their seat belt on. Aside from the violent crime, we have enough reckless drivers to keep officers busy.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 30, 2013 20:09:25 GMT -5
catching up on this thread now, apologies if anyone else has addressed this. donning the flame suit now....this isn't necessarily my opinion, just raising the question. when I was a kid, my mom argued with my pediatrician pretty much every visit about seat belts. her basis was the rash of child fatalities in vehicular accidents in our area, many resulting in fires, where the restraints across and through car seats couldn't be released in time to save the child. given that the minimum age/size to be able to ride in a car has been raised almost to puberty in some states, I think this is a valid question to consider as there are so many more kids riding in car seats now than when we were kids. and seatbelts haven't really changed much over those years....being basic mechanical and all. that said, I do wear my seat belt across my waist. I pull the shoulder harness over my head and the driver's seat whenever possible. having survived a serious car accident where the majority of my injuries were as a result of the shoulder harness NOT engaging on impact, I'm happy to entertain an argument against my opinion and behavior. that's a very dangerous way to wear it..... it pulls the lap belt part up onto the non-bony part of your abdomen rather than across your hip bones and in an accident can cause serious internal injuries. It also means your upper body is going to slam into the airbag or the steering wheel and can cause your spine to stretch. bold, not really. I've actually taken note where the lap belt lies regardless of where I put the shoulder harness, in the car that I currently drive. I've driven the same model, albeit two separate vehicles, for the past 11 years. it lies in the exact same place, whether the shoulder harness is across my shoulders or behind the driver's seat. *(ETA: after thinking more on my comment, I feel that I should further clarify my opinion - the physics of the lap belt aren't any different IN MY vehicle (IM not-so-HO) whether the shoulder harness is across my shoulder or over my shoulder and over the driver's seat. I've hit cold stops with the shoulder harness in both positions, and have experienced exactly the same from my seat belt in both situations. I also come from an engineering background and understand the issues of force and torque, and how they relate to operation and safety. as far as what you say after the bold, you clearly missed reading my post. my shoulder harness (on a vehicle that supposedly passed inspection) didn't engage. if I'm going to put up with the aggravation of having the shoulder harness, I'd like the reassurance that the thing will actually work. I work in automation engineering, which is the discipline of engineering that deals with the mechanical and computer controls of standard and custom operations. my company happens to be FDA-regulated. I'm pretty conditioned to accept a very robust testing, and to ignore those tests that don't hold water. that said, I fully recognize that there are significantly more important features to a vehicle than the seatbelts, but 99% of those features would prevent the vehicle from being "road-ready" and being on the market in the first place. just my two cents. YMMV
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on May 30, 2013 21:37:28 GMT -5
When I was taking driver's ed in HS, our instructor insisted that we all buckle up. He also insisted that he'd flunk us if he saw us driving around outside of driver's ed classtime unbuckled. This was long before there were any laws about wearing seatbelts in the US, although it was already law in Canada (I live in a border area, so crossing the bridge then was extremely common.) I developed the habit, and it has stuck.
Now that I'm a mom, I also buckle up as an example to the kids - before we put the car in drive, we always ask if everyone is buckled. It's mostly just code for "does the 8yo need help getting the buckle clicked properly?" The teens+ do it automatically.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on May 30, 2013 23:43:08 GMT -5
Chiver makes a good point. I have 3 kids under 6. One is in a regular seatbelt with a booster seat, which he works himself. One is in a PIA 5 point safety harness. And one is in one of those infant carseats (pumpkin seat) and will shortly be moving to the PIA 5 point harness. Getting 2 kids out of those 5 point safety harnesses is not a quick process, and if there was a fire or we went into water, it is rather unlikely that we'd all get out in time. On the other hand, the vast majorty of accidents don't involve cars catching fire or falling into deep water. Everyone who owns and operates a vehicle should have one of these kept in the glove compartment or vehicle console. It's an emergency escape tool. It can shatter a car side window with a tap and cut seat belts during an emergency. This one in particular also has a flashlight and emergency flashing hazard light. They are inexpensive but can and do save lives. I actually want one of these. A bridge over the freaking INTERSTATE near where I live collapsed last week during rush hour and the idea of trying to get my child out of her car seat in the backseat rear-facing car seat while my car is flooded with water or sinking is giving me panic attacks. Do they sell them on amazon?
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on May 30, 2013 23:44:26 GMT -5
I don't think you showed data that supports your first statement, though you are probably correct. In the context here of whether or not to wear a seatbelt, nope, I don't see how it applies. You are right, I didn't show data, I assumed it was common sense. There is 1 vehicle fatality per approximately 91 million miles driven. I don't see any way that any sort of miles or hours riding a snowmobile could not be higher. But, here is a study to back my point www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1308343/pdf/pubhealthrep00029-0050.pdfIn context of seatbelts, nope snowmobile deaths have nothing to do with it. In terms of this conversation, for some reason jkapp felt the need to bring up snowmobiles, you commented on his comparison & then I commented on yours. It isn't like I started talking about snowmobiles out of the blue. So in the context of this thread, I think my comments apply. I dunno, you said you were a stickler for numbers and data, so I thought you should provide it! I also said the comparison of snowmobiles was silly in my first post... so I'll stop taking about them now and we can let them die a quick and painless death.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 31, 2013 1:18:22 GMT -5
Basic fine in California was $142 in 2011. Additional fees etc would have have made that ~ 2.5 times as expensive. Considering that I noticed this morning that carpool fines have gone up by more than 150% I would imagine that a ticket for not wearing seatbelt could easily cost you $300.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 31, 2013 2:23:35 GMT -5
Everyone who owns and operates a vehicle should have one of these kept in the glove compartment or vehicle console. It's an emergency escape tool. It can shatter a car side window with a tap and cut seat belts during an emergency. This one in particular also has a flashlight and emergency flashing hazard light. They are inexpensive but can and do save lives. I actually want one of these. A bridge over the freaking INTERSTATE near where I live collapsed last week during rush hour and the idea of trying to get my child out of her car seat in the backseat rear-facing car seat while my car is flooded with water or sinking is giving me panic attacks. Do they sell them on amazon? Yes. I bought mine on Amazon.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 5:54:31 GMT -5
In Maryland, it's 2 points on your license for not wearing a seatbelt and it's a primary offense. They're really cracking down on it recently. Not a problem for me as I've worn my seatbelt ever since it became a law (which was after I was involved in an accicent - not my fault - and I smacked into the steering wheel). I don't understand why anyone would not want to wear a seatbelt, but in my care, you either buckle up or you get out.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2013 7:14:19 GMT -5
Yes, Pink, I'm sure he thought you'd be easy pickings and was bummed to find out you weren't. That's my biggest beef. Crimes up all over the place but its easier to generate revenue than fight it.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on May 31, 2013 7:45:16 GMT -5
Chiver makes a good point. I have 3 kids under 6. One is in a regular seatbelt with a booster seat, which he works himself. One is in a PIA 5 point safety harness. And one is in one of those infant carseats (pumpkin seat) and will shortly be moving to the PIA 5 point harness. Getting 2 kids out of those 5 point safety harnesses is not a quick process, and if there was a fire or we went into water, it is rather unlikely that we'd all get out in time. On the other hand, the vast majorty of accidents don't involve cars catching fire or falling into deep water. Everyone who owns and operates a vehicle should have one of these kept in the glove compartment or vehicle console. It's an emergency escape tool. It can shatter a car side window with a tap and cut seat belts during an emergency. This one in particular also has a flashlight and emergency flashing hazard light. They are inexpensive but can and do save lives. I've got one in my car
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seriousthistime
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Post by seriousthistime on May 31, 2013 7:54:50 GMT -5
IMO it's the same argument about making helmets for motorcycle drivers mandatory - fine, don't wear it. But don't complain when your body and entrails are strewn across the road because you failed to do a simple thing that could have saved your life. Right, and don't expect my tax dollars to pay for your lifelong care in a nursing home if you get get hurt so badly that you're almost, not quite, dead. People think that the worst that can happen is that they'll die. Not so.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 31, 2013 8:13:23 GMT -5
::1. No matter how good your are under pressure, if you've been knocked out of your seat, your arms are broken, you are knocked unconscious from a blow to the head, or you've been decapitated by an unrestrained backseat pasenger flying through the windsheid, you aren't going to keep control of your car. Most of us mere mortals think more clearly when we aren't injured. ::
Totally agree, but you're pretending that people who get hit THIS hard and who are wearing a seatbelt are somehow magically uninjured and just sitting there driving their car. They aren't. A seatbelt is not a magic forcefield of health, and probably teh worst thing you can do after such a massive impact that you've described is attempt to drive your car somewhere and end up making the accident much worse because of it. You should just stop (and likely have due to the impact of the collision).
If anything you've made an argument for people NOT wearing seatbelts, if their options after such a collision are to hit your head and be knocked unconscious, or to be conscious and do something stupid like continue operating the vehicle. We're not talking a fender bender, you're talking about a collision substantial enough to break arms and decapitate people. You'd be far better off unconscious in your car than continuing to try to drive/maneuver it and get yourself killed.
You seem to have this idea that people get "bumped" and are then incapacitated if they aren't wearing a seatbelt, but that those who are take on massive collisions and just keep on driving. This isn't remotely how it works.
::hoops902 said:::
Not that I really care, but the quote listed was not from me.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on May 31, 2013 8:28:42 GMT -5
That's such BS and such an obvious revenue grab. That's why people have issues with cops. Bad PR. Cops don't make the laws. They have to remember them all and it is their sworn duty to uphold and enforce them. So why would you blame the cop who has a family to feed and could be living next door to you (well his wife would have to work too) with things that are beyond his / her control?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2013 8:31:34 GMT -5
They don't have to enforce laws that don't endanger others. Sitting in a non-moving vehicle without a seatbelt on is not a danger to anyone. Car moving? Ticket away. They have discretion and should use it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2013 8:33:10 GMT -5
Frankly, I lived in a neighborhood with a cop who worked nights so let his dog bark all day long. He couldn't hear it. Other cops would do nothing about it because he was "one of their own." So in the summer when we all had our windows open, we got to hear constant dog bark.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2013 8:34:19 GMT -5
Laws for the rest of us don't pertain to them. Speeding, changing lanes without signaling, all things we would get ticketed for, they're exempt.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on May 31, 2013 8:34:26 GMT -5
Cops have discretion about what they ticket about. If you're going fifty in a school zone, I have no issue with you being ticketed. You're an ass that deserves a ticket and a big one. If you're sitting in a parked car without your seat belt on, that's just bullshit. I don't hate cops, they do it to themselves. My future son in law maybe is a cop. Am I thrilled about it? No, but I don't hate him, yet. He hasn't turned into a prick yet either. Give him time and the exposure to the things that make cops pricks and I'm sure he will be. Such a nice young man now, too. MY SIL is a cop. He tries to leave work there and not bring it home. He made a decision when he was a cadet. Two things help him in his quest. 1. He does not live in the same city as he works. 2. He hangs around normal people on his days off. Since he works in a rough part of town he turns his experiences into funny stories rather than take them into him. This may be good advice for your future SIL.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on May 31, 2013 8:34:37 GMT -5
Cops have discretion about what they ticket about. If you're going fifty in a school zone, I have no issue with you being ticketed. You're an ass that deserves a ticket and a big one. If you're sitting in a parked car without your seat belt on, that's just bullshit. I don't hate cops, they do it to themselves. My future son in law maybe is a cop. Am I thrilled about it? No, but I don't hate him, yet. He hasn't turned into a prick yet either. Give him time and the exposure to the things that make cops pricks and I'm sure he will be. Such a nice young man now, too. MY SIL is a cop. He tries to leave work there and not bring it home. He made a decision when he was a cadet. Two things help him in his quest. 1. He does not live in the same city as he works. 2. He hangs around normal people on his days off. Since he works in a rough part of town he turns his experiences into funny stories rather than take them into him. This may be good advice for your future SIL.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2013 8:37:02 GMT -5
He has to live where he works. Even DD asked him not to tell her some stuff because she said shed never let it go. Told him to tell his brother instead. It worries me that this nice young man has no real friends except his brother. Nasty family situation, thanks to his mother, so I suppose he clings to what family he has, his brother.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 31, 2013 9:04:55 GMT -5
You are right, I didn't show data, I assumed it was common sense. There is 1 vehicle fatality per approximately 91 million miles driven. I don't see any way that any sort of miles or hours riding a snowmobile could not be higher. But, here is a study to back my point www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1308343/pdf/pubhealthrep00029-0050.pdfIn context of seatbelts, nope snowmobile deaths have nothing to do with it. In terms of this conversation, for some reason jkapp felt the need to bring up snowmobiles, you commented on his comparison & then I commented on yours. It isn't like I started talking about snowmobiles out of the blue. So in the context of this thread, I think my comments apply. I dunno, you said you were a stickler for numbers and data, so I thought you should provide it! I also said the comparison of snowmobiles was silly in my first post... so I'll stop taking about them now and we can let them die a quick and painless death. LOL!
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on May 31, 2013 10:40:09 GMT -5
Wow with the cop hate from some people.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on May 31, 2013 10:40:18 GMT -5
He has to live where he works. Even DD asked him not to tell her some stuff because she said shed never let it go. Told him to tell his brother instead. It worries me that this nice young man has no real friends except his brother. Nasty family situation, thanks to his mother, so I suppose he clings to what family he has, his brother. Well, in some ways, that will make it easier for him to join your family. Your DD will become his whole world. My stepbrother is a cop. He used to be a bit of a prick when he was younger, but has turned into this wonderful man. So don't think that becoming a cop will necessairly ruin him. It had just the opposite effect on my stepbrother.
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