Florida strikes again- on teen sex- selective prosecution?

[Tennesseer]

Is there any difference at all between an 18 year old high school student having sex with a 14 year old high school student and a 44 year old man having sex with an under age high school student who's a friend of one of the man's children?

[billisonboard]

Jun 1, 2013 12:38:08 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jun 1, 2013 9:52:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

...

...

So that's at least two people who have no idea ...

Since you quoted me, it looks like you are including me in the "two". If you are, I think you missed the nature of my quoted posting.

[pappyjohn99]

* Umm, no, pappyjohn.  Let's just not go there.  It's not necessary, and you don't know the details.  - mmhmm, Administrator

I would be a felon, most of my old pals would be felons by this rule. The girl I took to junior prom would have made me a felon.

Please stop telling me I don't understand simple english words. Pedophile = adults who have sex with children. Child molester= someone assualts a child for sexual gradification.

Do you disagree with the above definitions?

Why don't you call a few of your old high school buddies and ask them if they approve of people of any age putting their hands on their 14 year old children. I bet you would find more people in my camp than yours.

[cereb]

"Please stop telling me I don't understand simple english words. Pedophile = adults who have sex with children. Child molester= someone assualts a child for sexual gradification.

Do you disagree with the above definitions?"


Your definition for pedophile is so simplified it becomes incorrect. This is absolutely not a case of pedophilia, it doesn't meet the criteria.

[pappyjohn99]

lol.    Would you care to complicate it a little so I will know the correct definition?

[cereb]

Jun 1, 2013 16:38:09 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

lol.    Would you care to complicate it a little so I will know the correct definition?

For starters, there needs to be a minimum of 5 years difference in age. Also, pedophilia refers to prepubescent attraction. The rest is easy enough for you to look up.

[pappyjohn99]

Oh mmhmm- We certainly wouldn't want to hurt EVT's feelings. But let's look at this thread, he's the person that approves of adults have sex with children. He's fine with lowering the age of consent to 14.

[mmhmm]

Pappyjohn, you may see this situation one way while others may see it another.  You're not entitled, by grace of your opinion, to insult another person because his/her opinion doesn't match yours.  There will be no name-calling.  Disagree civilly.

mmhmm, Administrator who will not argue this further on the open board.

[pappyjohn99]

Gotcha.

[mmhmm]

Thanks, pappyjohn!

[pappyjohn99]

For starters, there needs to be a minimum of 5 years difference in age.

Interesting, so, if I do something when I'm one age, it's different then if I do it when I'm older? An arbitrary age limit? Who comes up with these silly ideas?? That's as crazy as "Romeo and Juliet" laws.

Also, pedophilia refers to prepubescent attraction.

This is interesting also. The last time my sister came home for a visit I overheard a conversation between her and my mother. They were discussing the fact that my neice had reached physical maturity, She is nine. I guess if some Chester came along and put his hands on her he wouldn't be a pedophile. It brings to mind an old high school saying, kinda the reverse of "16 will get you 20".

"If there's grass on the field, play ball"

Maybe Kaitlyn should print that on a t-shirt and wear it around town.

[mmhmm]

Proclaiming adulthood to begin at 18 years of age, or 21 years of age, is an arbitrary age limit, pappyjohn.   A line needs to be drawn somewhere.  As always, when that line is drawn it creates problems because everyone isn't alike.  A person's chronological age doesn't necessarily define that person's intellectual age, emotional age, or maturity.  A boy can join the armed services at 18 without parental permission.  Does that mean that boy is an adult?  Not in all cases, it doesn't.

In short, this case isn't as easy as it might appear on the surface, IMO.

[EVT1]

Jun 1, 2013 16:51:30 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

Oh mmhmm- We certainly wouldn't want to hurt EVT's feelings. But let's look at this thread, he's the person that approves of adults have sex with children. He's fine with lowering the age of consent to 14.

That's all you see.  Just like all you see is an 'adult' and a 'child'.  But please show where I want the age of consent to change to 14......

Also I noticed no one answered my contention that if a 14yo is a 'child' then they can never be charged as adults for a crime- got zero opinions on that one because I bet you have no problem locking one of them up as an adult if they were in a gang and shot someone.  Can't give consent to sex ever, but to form criminal intent- no problem- they can be an adult on that day.

The law needs to be modified as it applies to the accused- not the victim.  So maybe quit misrepresenting my position.

[pappyjohn99]

I get it mmhmm. In life there have to be limits. We say "This much, and no more." Age limits are a tool we use for when you can do certain things. We can't have a drink until we're 21. Can't cast a ballot until we're 18. Can't run for president until we're 35. And we can't put our hands on 14 year old girls if we are 18. I've said repeatedly that i find the Florida "Romeo & Juliet" laws to be reasonable and humane. It's others here who keep saying "This ain't right" or "This ain't fair". A lot of things in life ain't fair. Some people insist that they are the only one that's right and we must see things their way. I will not. Parents have the duty to care for their children as best they can. Kaityn Hunt was undermining those parents. She's crying now because she must pay the price for her actions.

IMO- This case could not be anymore straightforward. Here's the line, you crossed it more that once. Here's what you get. Boom. Felony conviction and all that goes with.

[pappyjohn99]

1) How often are 14 year olds tried and convicted as adults? Any stats on that?

2) There a big difference between committing a crime and being a victim of a crime.

I have already stated that if I were King 16 would be the age of adulthood for everything. Is that plain enough?

So how would you modify the law. You don't like the arbitrary age of 18. Would 21 be better, or maybe 25? Or maybe we should apply one standard to one person, and another standard to another? Boys get hit with the book, but girls get to walk? Or vice-versa?

If you were King, how would you run things?

[billisonboard]

Jun 1, 2013 19:18:11 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

...

If you were King, how would you run things?

I would give a prosecutor the power to decide what charges to bring, a jury the power to determine if the person is guilty of that crime, and the judge the power to determine the appropriate punishment.

[EVT1]

We are in your black and white world- if a 14 can never agree to sex, then how can they properly develop mens rea for a crime?  Are you saying that maybe a 14yo is somewhat responsible for their actions?  If so how is consent to sex unfathomable?  You are saying that this 'victim' who decided to run away from home because her parents were trying to break up her relationship has zero culpability in this relationship?

Also remember it is not 'the law'- it is the law in FL.  Generally- it is not the case in the rest of the country.  As I said- I want some discretion here-as in this should not be a felony.  A misdemeanor fine- she is not innocent in this- at least there.  You take the whole thing into account and you use discretion.  You don't label her a pedophile when there is no evidence of it. 

You could inform the HS kids as to the laws in their state before you nail one of them with it- is that too much to ask?  Put it in the damn student handbook under dating.  While you are at it list everyone's birthday in it too so there is no mistake.  How about senior orientation- tell them what is means at 18 in their shitty state as far as sex crimes go.  And even after all of this use discretion with HS relationships- kids do not always use great judgment in HS.  That is a given.

[mmhmm]

Jun 1, 2013 19:01:30 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

I get it mmhmm. In life there have to be limits. We say "This much, and no more." Age limits are a tool we use for when you can do certain things. We can't have a drink until we're 21. Can't cast a ballot until we're 18. Can't run for president until we're 35. And we can't put our hands on 14 year old girls if we are 18. I've said repeatedly that i find the Florida "Romeo & Juliet" laws to be reasonable and humane. It's others here who keep saying "This ain't right" or "This ain't fair". A lot of things in life ain't fair. Some people insist that they are the only one that's right and we must see things their way. I will not. Parents have the duty to care for their children as best they can. Kaityn Hunt was undermining those parents. She's crying now because she must pay the price for her actions.

IMO- This case could not be anymore straightforward. Here's the line, you crossed it more that once. Here's what you get. Boom. Felony conviction and all that goes with.

It may turn out that way, pappyjohn, and it may not.  We'll have to see what the courts make of it.  As yet, we have no conviction and no sentence.  The Hunt girl can't be tried and convicted here.  Until she is found to be guilty of a felony, she is not.

All we know is what we read/see in news reports.  We really know nothing about either of the young people involved, other than their ages.  It will be up to a jury to decide if there were extenuating circumstances, and that decision will be based upon evidence we don't have.  We can discuss what we know, and what we feel about what we know, but we can't decide the intricacies of the case.  We aren't in a position to do so.

[mmhmm]

Jun 1, 2013 19:18:11 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

1) How often are 14 year olds tried and convicted as adults? Any stats on that?

2) There a big difference between committing a crime and being a victim of a crime.

I have already stated that if I were King 16 would be the age of adulthood for everything. Is that plain enough?

So how would you modify the law. You don't like the arbitrary age of 18. Would 21 be better, or maybe 25? Or maybe we should apply one standard to one person, and another standard to another? Boys get hit with the book, but girls get to walk? Or vice-versa?

If you were King, how would you run things?

*chuckle*  Oddly enough, if I were Queen, 26 would be the age of adulthood for everything.  By that time, your brain is fully developed.

[EVT1]

Wow- just looking around a bit it appears FL also leads the country in the number of juvenilles in state prison- and apparently send them there at 5 times the average of other states reporting.

www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/232434.pdf

I have a theory on this- film at eleven.

[EVT1]

This is what a second degree felony is supposed to look like:

clearwater.patch.com/blog_posts/tampa-teen-sentenced-to-15-years-for-freedom-high-bomb-threat

Yesterday in Hillsborough Circuit Court Cano was sentenced to 15 years in a Florida prison for a bomb plot at Freedom High School, despite only scoring to 12 months under Florida’s sentencing guidelines.

Police learned of Cano’s plans through another Freedom High student. Upon following the student’s lead police found bomb making materials in addition to a timing device thought to be used as a detonator at Cano’s residence

For someone to be convicted of attempting to discharge a destructive device under 790.161(2) the State Attorney’s Office must prove that one willfully and unlawfully attempted to discharge a destructive device with the intent to inflict bodily harm upon someone or to inflict damage to the property of another. Like the threat of discharging a destructive device, an attempt to discharge a destructive device is a second degree felony. 




Yes- only in FL do they charge the same level crime for diddling your HS GF as they would for attempting to blow them and others up with a bomb.

[kgb18]

FYI this is not a crime in AL, AK, CO, DC, HI, IO, ME, MD, MI, NE, NJ, NY, NC, PA  and I stopped looking....

Well, actually it is a crime in PA. Our statutory rape law applies to a victim who is under the age of 16 and there is an age difference of four or more years.

I see a lot of gray area in this case. The law is the law for now, but I think law regarding statutory rape should be reviewed. I do not believe those who are actually charged with enforcing the law and making decisions regarding one's guilty or innocence will do so based on the same-sex nature of the relationship.

While I do not like the idea of a 14-year-old having sex with ANYONE, I do not view this girl as a pedophile or rapist. I spend my days reading about, writing about, listening to testimony in cases involving pedophiles and rapists. I write about problems with Megan's Law and the Adam Walsh Act. It's probably made me somewhat jaded. But after listening to an 8-year-old give graphic testimony about her grandfather raping her, I can't view the girl in this Florida case on even remotely close to the same level.

Is there any difference at all between an 18 year old high school student having sex with a 14 year old high school student and a 44 year old man having sex with an under age high school student who's a friend of one of the man's children?

I think so. Students who are in high school together are peers. A few months different in a birth date and this story would be moot.

[EVT1]

Umm- they are under 4 years apart so not a crime there.

[pappyjohn99]

You are saying that this 'victim' who decided to run away from home because her parents were trying to break up her relationship has zero culpability in this relationship?

The adult is expected to behave in a lawful manner toward the child. Isn't that what we expect in our society?

Also remember it is not 'the law'- it is the law in FL.

You posted a link that stated that the law came up for review in the last session of the state legislature. It did not even come to a vote, there was so little support.

You could inform the HS kids as to the laws in their state before you nail one of them with it- is that too much to ask?

You really think that she didn't know it was illegal? And are you sure that the school did not do something of that sort.

And even after all of this use discretion with HS relationships

They have a Romeo & Juliet law. This relationship was outside the boundries of even that.

if a 14 can never agree to sex, then how can they properly develop mens rea for a crime?

I do not understand

[EVT1]

Hmmmm- interesting:

www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/259214/4/Florida-leads-the-nation-in-length-of-prison-terms

www.prisonlegalnews.org/displayArticle.aspx?articleid=24135&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

My that is an interesting combination:

     According to the Teamsters, during the last election cycle GEO and its executives gave $829,665 to political parties and candidates in Florida, while CCA donated $138,494. Additionally, both CCA and GEO made contributions to Governor Scott’s inaugural fund in the amounts of $5,000 and $25,000, respectively. GEO had also paid its team of Florida lobbyists between $220,000 and $360,000 to influence state officials, and the company reportedly said it would spend $3 million to compete for the Region IV private prison contract.

     “The governor’s privatization scheme smacks of political payback, pure and simple,” said Wood.

     “It all comes down to politics and the big donors,” noted Senator Fasano. “GEO and the other private companies that run prisons are very big donors to the party here in Florida and to the elected officials, both past and present.”

      Although the Florida Commission on Ethics initially found that the Teamsters’ complaint was “legally sufficient” for an investigation into the state’s plan to privatize Region IV prisons, the complaint was dismissed in October 2011. The Commission held that pay-to-play politics are not equivalent to a “quid-pro-quo, criminal-bribery-like understanding allegation” necessary to allege an ethics violation, and that campaign contributions do not constitute improper influence.


This is another topic but it may shed light on the heavy sentencing in that state- it is good for business.

[pappyjohn99]

I would give a prosecutor the power to decide what charges to bring, a jury the power to determine if the person is guilty of that crime, and the judge the power to determine the appropriate punishment.

Bill your as smart as a Founding Father.

[pappyjohn99]

your brain is fully developed.

mmhmm- sometimes you say the sweetest things.

[kgb18]

Umm- they are under 4 years apart so not a crime there.

I guess that will depend on how the court factors birth dates. I understand what you're saying, but I don't know legally if they'll look at it in terms of 48 months or just subtract 18 from 14.

[EVT1]

Jun 1, 2013 20:37:41 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

And even after all of this use discretion with HS relationships

They have a Romeo & Juliet law. This relationship was outside the boundries of even that.

if a 14 can never agree to sex, then how can they properly develop mens rea for a crime?

I do not understand

They do fit the R&J law there.  That law is only for keeping someone off the sex offender registry- not a defense to the crime.

I am saying that for a state that has no problem locking up a 14yo as an adult, their views on consent doesn't make sense to me.  If a 14yo can consent to robbing a store with 18yo gangster pals and go to jail with them, why are they not treated as victims instead of criminals?  Obviously the state determines they are not victims when they have a gun in their hand- but a dildo on the other hand.....

[EVT1]

Jun 1, 2013 20:51:20 GMT -5 kgb18 said:

Umm- they are under 4 years apart so not a crime there.

I guess that will depend on how the court factors birth dates. I understand what you're saying, but I don't know legally if they'll look at it in terms of 48 months or just subtract 18 from 14.

They go by birthdates so they are somewhere around 3 and a half years apart depending on the information as the victim's birthdate was not given- just that she is 15 now and that the other one turned 18 while the other was still 14 which is <4 years.

Of course the same problem exists- what if they were 4 years and one day apart and on and on.  Discretion is everything.