Florida strikes again- on teen sex- selective prosecution?

[pappyjohn99]

I did Swamp. As an attorney, what would you call it?

[swamp]

Criminal Sexual Act 2nd  because of the 14 year old's age.   But I don't call it assault. 

ETA:  I originally posted Rape, but it's not rape because the legal definition of rape is penis to vagina contact.

ETA again:  I also call it a waste of prosecutorial resources. 

[pappyjohn99]

So, if an 18 year old guy bends your 14 year old son over a chair and inserts his penis into his anus, that's not rape? How about a finger, or an object? 

Would that be a waste of prosecutorial resources?

[swamp]

May 24, 2013 11:54:09 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

So, if a bodybuilder bends your son over a chair and inserts his penis into his anus, that's not rape? How about a finger, or an object? 

Would that be a waste of prosecutorial resources?

It's not rape, it's criminal sexual act.  Same level of crime, i.e. Rape 1st and Criminal Sexual Act 1st are both B felonies. 

The difference in your situation is that it is not consensual. 

It's a waste because it's two teens in love, not a predator/prey relationship.  I have a serious problem branding an 18 year old as a sex offender when the other party is also a teen. 

[pappyjohn99]

OK, I accept that. But these are fine shades of gray we have to define. As a parent, would you condone a relationship with your son and this adult under the same circumstances?

[swamp]

May 24, 2013 12:02:14 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

OK, I accept that. But these are fine shades of gray we have to define. As a parent, would you condone a relationship with your son and this adult under the same circumstances?

I would prefer that he not engage in any sexual relationship at 14.   I don't think I would insist that his boyfriend or girlfriend be arrested if they were, though.

If some dude anally and forcefully sodomized him, though, you bet we will be at the police station. 

[pappyjohn99]

Right. I concede that forcible assault is a different kettle of fish. Mea Culpa.

[pappyjohn99]

Back to the case at hand, men have used the statements that this girl used. " We were in love", "She acted much older", "It was consensual". These facts are not considered a defense in hetro cases. I think it only right (or fair,as our dear leader loves to preach), that this woman be treated exactly the same.

[EVT1]

May 24, 2013 9:06:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 24, 2013 8:56:15 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Is it because its a gay relationship, do you think? Or because they had to wait until the older one was 18 to put a stop to it. It amazes me how little control parents seem to have over their children's lives. You don't want your fifteen year old dating? Then she or he stays home after school hours, period. But if you let them have freedom, they are going to do what they want. Life isn't a bubble. But I still remember the mom of an 8 year old telling me she couldn't control what her daughter wore to school. Really? Good luck when she's 13 then if you have no control now. 

Step one: Don't have any clothing in the house that you object to the 8 year old wearing to school (don't buy it and throw it out if it is given to her).
Step two: Stop attempting to control it. Who really cares if she is mixing stripes and plaids.

For the record telling them what to wear doesn't work at some point- I remember my girlfriend changing in my car many times because she was not allowed to wear certain clothes.

[Deleted]

a really simple question

can a minor "consent" to a relationship with an adult

that is what we have here....they started dated AFTER she turned 18 and the other was 14

and no...i dont see a difference between ages....either you are an adult, or you arent

and the reason states created the "age of consent" laws

if i am on the jury, she is guilty of statutory rape, or sexual assualt, or whatever you want to term it (adult vs child)

same as i would find if it was boy/girl, boy/boy, or girl/girl

[Virgil Showlion]

May 24, 2013 9:26:36 GMT -5 imanangel said:

May 24, 2013 8:39:05 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

They did nothing to stop it and yet they press charges as soon as the older woman turns 18.

If we're thinking critically, is this statement the least bit believable?

Yes, the way the news reports read, the parents KNEW that there was a relationship.  They could have stopped it at anytime before the girl turned 18.  If they had no control over their own 14 year old daughter, that is THEIR problem.  Why destroy the other girl's (or if it had been a guy) life because they couldn't control their teen? 

I have a young daughter and there is no way I would ever press charges against a boy unless it wasn't consensual.  If I didn't agree with the relationship I wouldn't allow my daughter to see the guy.  If she did it behind my back, she wouldn't be allowed to go anywhere.  But I personally have no problem with a Senior boy dating a younger HS girl.  I dated older guys all the time in HS.  They didn't force me to date them. 

Firstly, their daughter's refusal to respect their authority in no way justifies the statement, "They did nothing to stop it."

Secondly, I'm just guessing that they warned their daughter that if she continued to defy them they would take the only recourse left to them, which would be to prosecute her 'partner'. The daughter refused, and they proceeded with the prosecution.

The whole reason the laws exist is because minors are not deemed legally competent to offer consent. There is a reason for this. Given enough time and an attractive enough personality, an adult could persuade a minor into engaging in any number of activities and we have said as a society that minors do not yet possess the emotional maturity to lawfully consent. A judge may consider the circumstances of a particular case when passing sentence, but the laws themselves don't pick and choose who to prosecute based on our gut feeling on whether a minor can legitimately consent "in this case".

Did the parents wield the law as a club in this case? Quite possibly. Do I favour loosening up rape laws because of situations like this? No.

[cme1201]

May 24, 2013 11:46:46 GMT -5 swamp said:

Criminal Sexual Act 2nd  because of the 14 year old's age.   But I don't call it assault. 

ETA:  I originally posted Rape, but it's not rape because the legal definition of rape is penis to vagina contact.

ETA again:  I also call it a waste of prosecutorial resources. 

Which is closer to the actual charge ...

Statue Charged 800.04 (4)a

800.04 Lewd or lascivious offenses committed upon or in the presence of persons less than 16 years of age.—

(4) LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS BATTERY.—A person who:
(a) Engages in sexual activity with a person 12 years of age or older but less than 16 years of age;

No one in the law books are calling it assault. The news and people may be calling it that but, she was charged over an existing statue that has burned men in Florida for the same reasons.

www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0800/Sections/0800.04.html

The parents acted after the person was 18, according to the 14yo the relationship started in November 3 mo after Defendants 18th, and the arrest was made in February.

The Sex offender registration should be squelched under Florida's Romeo and Juliet statue if she meets all conditions ...

943.04354 Removal of the requirement to register as a sexual offender or sexual predator in special circumstances.—

Which reading the statue she is

[cme1201]

May 24, 2013 14:01:35 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

May 24, 2013 9:26:36 GMT -5 imanangel said:

Yes, the way the news reports read, the parents KNEW that there was a relationship.  They could have stopped it at anytime before the girl turned 18.  If they had no control over their own 14 year old daughter, that is THEIR problem.  Why destroy the other girl's (or if it had been a guy) life because they couldn't control their teen? 

I have a young daughter and there is no way I would ever press charges against a boy unless it wasn't consensual.  If I didn't agree with the relationship I wouldn't allow my daughter to see the guy.  If she did it behind my back, she wouldn't be allowed to go anywhere.  But I personally have no problem with a Senior boy dating a younger HS girl.  I dated older guys all the time in HS.  They didn't force me to date them. 

Firstly, their daughter's refusal to respect their authority in no way justifies the statement, "They did nothing to stop it."

Secondly, I'm just guessing that they warned their daughter that if she continued to defy them they would take the only recourse left to them, which would be to prosecute her 'partner'. The daughter refused, and they proceeded with the prosecution.

The whole reason the laws exist is because minors are not deemed legally competent to offer consent. There is a reason for this. Given enough time and an attractive enough personality, an adult could persuade a minor into engaging in any number of activities and we have said as a society that minors do not yet possess the emotional maturity to lawfully consent. A judge may consider the circumstances of a particular case when passing sentence, but the laws themselves don't pick and choose who to prosecute based on our gut feeling on whether a minor can legitimately consent "in this case".

Did the parents wield the law as a club in this case? Quite possibly. Do I favour loosening up rape laws because of situations like this? No.

Please stop with the use of the word rape, no one in the law has accused her of rape, The charge is specified in the Police report, no accusation of rape has been used.

Those who are equating it with rape are going for nothing more than an emotional plea, just as the OP is going for the emotions and be damned with facts in the case

[Deleted]

She did not start the relationship AFTER she turned 18.  According to the interview she gave on TV, she started the relationship when she was 17 and the other girl was 14.  The parents waited to press charges until she turned 18 and the other girl was 15.  The one girl turned 15 before the othe girl turned 18 according to the reports I read on FB.
Why did the parents wait until the one was 18?  I don't know about you, but if I do not want my 15 year old to date an 18 year old, then they don't date the 18 year old.  I am the parent.  If they want to go behind my back then they do not go ANYWHERE other than school!

[The Captain]

Some kids are just little hellions and will do whatever they damn well please, sneak around behind their parents back, and disregard authority in general.  If the kid won't respect the fact that their parents are trying to protect them, they the parents have no choice but to use whatever tools are available to them (such as the LAW!).

We have several posters on here who freely admit to doing what they wished, regardless of whether or not their parents approved.  Unless you are willing to chain you kid to the bed your options are limited.

[Robert not Bobby]

I love young Lolita on Lolita love...could have been a pyjama party sort of thing.  (no, I'm not a dirty old man...I'm not old). lol

Seriously, Florida really shouldn't be spending any kind of time, money or energy on a tryst between two teenagers (which apparently was consensual)...it has so many other serious issues to deal with.

[zibazinski]

Except one was legally an adult engaging in sexual activities with one who was not. The law is the law, change it or live with it and its consequences.

[pappyjohn99]

Angel, look at the police report. The first crime occured in November. The pedophile was born in August. She, and her parents are lying on facebook, and in their interviews. IMO they are trying to drum up sympathy to hang the jury. And again IMO, it stands a good chance of working.

[chiver78]

May 24, 2013 15:59:11 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Some kids are just little hellions and will do whatever they damn well please, sneak around behind their parents back, and disregard authority in general.  If the kid won't respect the fact that their parents are trying to protect them, they the parents have no choice but to use whatever tools are available to them (such as the LAW!).

We have several posters on here who freely admit to doing what they wished, regardless of whether or not their parents approved.  Unless you are willing to chain you kid to the bed your options are limited.

then why did they choose to wait until Kaitlyn turned 18? there's still statutory rape charges that could be brought against her, except the punishment (and sex offender registry requirement) is a lot less severe. why wait to lawfully oppose something, if it was THAT offensive?

[Virgil Showlion]

May 24, 2013 15:01:56 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

May 24, 2013 14:01:35 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Firstly, their daughter's refusal to respect their authority in no way justifies the statement, "They did nothing to stop it."

Secondly, I'm just guessing that they warned their daughter that if she continued to defy them they would take the only recourse left to them, which would be to prosecute her 'partner'. The daughter refused, and they proceeded with the prosecution.

The whole reason the laws exist is because minors are not deemed legally competent to offer consent. There is a reason for this. Given enough time and an attractive enough personality, an adult could persuade a minor into engaging in any number of activities and we have said as a society that minors do not yet possess the emotional maturity to lawfully consent. A judge may consider the circumstances of a particular case when passing sentence, but the laws themselves don't pick and choose who to prosecute based on our gut feeling on whether a minor can legitimately consent "in this case".

Did the parents wield the law as a club in this case? Quite possibly. Do I favour loosening up rape laws because of situations like this? No.

Please stop with the use of the word rape, no one in the law has accused her of rape, The charge is specified in the Police report, no accusation of rape has been used.

Those who are equating it with rape are going for nothing more than an emotional plea, just as the OP is going for the emotions and be damned with facts in the case

I thought the charge was for statutory rape. Given Swamp's comment above, I see that homosexual adult/child crimes use different terminology. I've never seen the logic in using "rape" to describe any consensual sex, heterosexual or otherwise, but I've never claimed to understand the whims of US law either.

Mea culpa.

[justme]

Not a lawyer, but from my addiction to SVU as well as reading some articles it seems the law has a very specific definition of rape and it only applies to what is traditionally thought of as male/female sex, and I think so far as to the victim must be female. Other acts of penetration fall under sodomy laws. And, well, I don't think even SVU has had many cases of female/female rape so I'm not clear what the law would term that as. I'm sure I'm missing something since TV/reporters don't always get it right.

Whereas society at large define rape as any sexual act by force and statutory rape as sexual acts with specific age gaps.

[EVT1]

May 24, 2013 16:26:02 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

Angel, look at the police report. The first crime occured in November. The pedophile was born in August. She, and her parents are lying on facebook, and in their interviews. IMO they are trying to drum up sympathy to hang the jury. And again IMO, it stands a good chance of working.

Come on man! Pedophile?!?!  Do I need to explain to you what a pedophile is? 

You know the law used to be able to bust your ass for statutory rape the day someone turned 18- in other words the 'rapist' would be which kid turned 18 first.  There is a reason this is outdated nonsense.

[pappyjohn99]

I don't think so. A pedophile is an adult that molests children. This case exactly. And I have stated at least twice, I find Florida's Romeo and Juliet law to be reasonable and humane.

I find the fact that you approve of adults molesting children to be disgusting.

[pappyjohn99]

Latest news- Pedophile rejects plea deal. Will take her chances in court.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/kaitlyn-hunt-refuses-plea-deal-gay-teen-charged_n_3331434.html

[EVT1]

May 24, 2013 18:45:58 GMT -5 justme said:

Not a lawyer, but from my addiction to SVU as well as reading some articles it seems the law has a very specific definition of rape and it only applies to what is traditionally thought of as male/female sex, and I think so far as to the victim must be female. Other acts of penetration fall under sodomy laws. And, well, I don't think even SVU has had many cases of female/female rape so I'm not clear what the law would term that as. I'm sure I'm missing something since TV/reporters don't always get it right.

Whereas society at large define rape as any sexual act by force and statutory rape as sexual acts with specific age gaps.

You are going to have 50 different versions of what defines rape.  I don't think this would be rape under any of them.  Of course in some states you can't be prosecuted for raping your wife- because apparently raping your wife is impossible.  Probably a thing in the southern and heavily red states

[EVT1]

May 24, 2013 22:53:00 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

I don't think so. A pedophile is an adult that molests children. This case exactly. And I have stated at least twice, I find Florida's Romeo and Juliet law to be reasonable and humane.

I find the fact that you approve of adults molesting children to be disgusting.

I find your statement to be 100% crap.  Maybe you need to look into what is an adult and what is a child.  So a relationship turns into pedophilia after a birthday according to you right?  Even worse- a child molester?  You realize how vile and disgusting those people are right?  And you want to equate this situation with them?  This is on par with Virgil comparing the situation to nambla.  So I guess as the largest incarcerator of citizens on the planet, why not add another wing next to the drug users so we can lockup teenagers that have sex before you say it is ok.

And is an 18 yo and adult really?  They can make contracts, carry a weapon and fight in the military- but are too immature to drink or set foot into a casino.  Forget you and all of these people that are setting arbitrary laws- this is some ancient bullshit.

[pappyjohn99]

I think inserting an object into a 14 year old girls vagina is rape, I don't care who you are. So sad that so many in blue states don't agree. 

[Tennesseer]

May 24, 2013 23:19:03 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

I think inserting an object into a 14 year old girls vagina is rape, I don't care who you are. So sad that so many in blue states don't agree. 

So is it rape when a 14 year old girl inserts a tampon into herself or asks someone for assistance in inserting it?

[pappyjohn99]

Maybe you need to look into what is an adult and what is a child.

As defined by the law, on this issue an adult is 18 years. A child is 14. What is so hard about that?

So a relationship turns into pedophilia after a birthday according to you right?

It was pedophilia from the get-go. The adult was 18, the child was 14. No turning involved.

Even worse- a child molester?

Engaging in sex acts with a child is so defined.

You realize how vile and disgusting those people are right?

Even worse are those who defend them.

And you want to equate this situation with them?

No need to equate, this situation defines them

So I guess as the largest incarcerator of citizens on the planet, why not add another wing next to the drug users so we can lockup teenagers that have sex before you say it is ok.

First- using drugs is something someone chooses to do to themselves. That's not the case here.

Second- The lawmakers in Florida decided this, not I.

And is an 18 yo and adult really? They can make contracts, carry a weapon and fight in the military- but are too immature to drink or set foot into a casino.

This is the singular sensible thing you've said. If it were up to me I would set the age of adulthood at 16 for everything. This would begin to solve many things wrong with our country.

Forget you and all of these people that are setting arbitrary laws- this is some ancient bullshit.

So? Run for office and change things.

[pappyjohn99]

So is it rape when a 14 year old girl inserts a tampon into herself or asks someone for assistance in inserting it?

If you're doing it for sexual gratification- Damn straight.