Men and women pay difference

[Ava]

I know you should compare pay in equal professions, but I've lately started noticing a big income inequality between men and women (specifically me).
A good friend of mine (she and her husband are from Argentina, so am I) emigrated here 13 years ago.
She works at the same cafeteria I used to work. In fact, I got her the job. She makes $12.40 hr.
She's very well educated but never bothered learning English properly once she moved to the States. She talks clearly enough to be understood, but has difficulty reading or writing. Her husband is exactly in the same situation.
In the old country, she was a librarian with a University education. He had to go out and get a job at age 13, and worked as an auto body person. He's very good at that, had no formal education or training.
He has always held a good job since he arrived here. He's hard working, punctual, honest, and a nice person. He's now making around $40 an hour every week, rounded to reflect commissions and overtime. He gets paid a portion of the revenue the garage makes every time he works on a car.
I see this kind of situation happening in every immigrant couple I meet. The man "makes it" and the woman brings in a small salary to supplement the family's income.
Yesterday I was very happy to find out a cousin of mine is living in the States. I had no idea since I lost contact with that side of the family many years ago when my father left. My mother ran into his mother and found out all about him.
This cousin has recently gotten his green card, has been here about 10 years, works for a company where he has a very important job. Don't know the details but he's been with them for almost the beginning, and makes a ton of money. Travels to Argentina several times a year, goes to Miami and Las Vegas, owns a home, sends money to Argentina, owns a restaurant in Miami, etc.
My question is; why it's so much easier for men to get ahead in this country? I've been here 11 years, got a Bachelor's degree in accounting, going now for my Master, and only make $38,000 a year. I'm also honest, nice, hard working, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I am glad for them. I'm angry with the system that makes somehow easier for men to achieve "the American Dream". I know I only cited two examples, but I see that kind of thing all the time in the immigrant community. And, honestly, I am getting kind of tired of studying hard, working hard, and not really getting ahead financially.
Thoughts? Comments?

[Deleted]

Quick answer (and that's not always the best answer) is that your friend's husband had skills that transferred without learning English "properly" while his wife didn't.  She was better educated but it was a language-dependent profession.  Your friend's husband doesn't need to read that well or write that well.  He just needs to be functionally literate in English, which he is.

[zibazinski]

For sure. I don't bother with people I can't understand. There's plenty out there that I can. Just don't have the patience.

[susanb]

Don't get me wrong, I am glad for them. I'm angry with the system that makes somehow easier for men to achieve "the American Dream". I know I only cited two examples, but I see that kind of thing all the time in the immigrant community. And, honestly, I am getting kind of tired of studying hard, working hard, and not really getting ahead financially.
Thoughts? Comments?

I would argue that it is your friend's choice not to learn English, rather than "the system" that is responsible for her inability to progress in a career.  An information worker who is functionally illiterate (note this term points out her inability to read and write in the dominant language of her current country of residency, not her literacy level in her native language) is unlikely to be paid at a level that matches their background and education in any country in the world.  Populations who do not learn the language are limited in their job prospects. As Susana points out, your friends husband is a far more skilled blue collar worker than your friend is. 

While you have been here for 11 years, you only recently got a BA.  This is not to discredit your accomplishments or belittle the time it took you to get an education.  Learning a language and studying in a second language are incredibly challenging.  I do not doubt that you have worked hard all 11 years.  At the same time.  38k for your first job out of college is nothing to sneeze at.  I understand wanting to be further along in life.  I think most native born people feel the same way, particularly early in their professional careers.  However, if you stay the course, I think your earning potential in 5 years will be quite good.  The "American Dream" is not beyond your reach, and while our system has many flaws, the potential for social mobility is one of the amazing things about this nation. 

[Deleted]

Women (generalizing) don't fight for higher wages.  The also tend to stay loyal to an employer and won't job hop to a higher salary level.

Want to be treated like a man - start thinking like one.

[Tiny]

As a woman - I agree that 'traditionally' women don't fight for higher wages OR ask for better jobs OR use jobs as stepping stones to other jobs.  I've seen more women wait and wait and wait to be rewarded for their 'hard work' rather than ask for the reward OR move on to a better paying job then men.   

I got into the work world in the mid 80's when women were finally benefiting from all that '60s and 70s' feminism.     I remember reading a book back then about how women needed to learn some new rules.  Basically the author (wether right or not I don't know) was saying that boys/men learned alot from organized sports - they learned to be team players (ie do their job really well), learned strategies for winning  AND to ask for the things they wanted (ie wheeling and dealing to get the players they wanted on their teams OR convincing the people in charge that THEY should be on the team)  - while girls/women learned a lot from not playing organized sports - ie playing by the rules of a game and following it thru to it's conclusion where someone (or a group) was rewarded for having played the game.  IE hard work alone would bring them to the finish line and reward!    Think about board games or playing house or school...     Remember this was the 80s  - not now...  the 80s.   Remember also that back then girls/women weren't really suppose to be 'tooting their own horn' in an effort to get ahead in their career.  Many 'female' career paths use to be a lot like 'board games' - you moved along a preset path - not a lot of strategy or attempts to move off the path to a better one - you followed all the steps/fulfilled all the requirements and got a reward/won.  

That said.  I agree with MMC - not that you want to be 'treated' like a man or that you should start thinking like one (ewww!!!)  - but that you need to start thinking differently about how to get ahead in a job/career. What you are currently doing isn't giving you what you want.  It's time to start tweaking what you are doing/how you are thinking.   You may need to learn some new rules OR unlearn some old ones.   You may need to re-access how you expect other people to behave  - are you waiting patiently for your boss to notice your outstanding work?  How much 'authority' are you giving to your boss(es)/employer over your career or life? Just some examples.
 
I'm a woman that got ahead by changing the way I thought about my career and how to get ahead - without compromising my morals.

[Deleted]

May 6, 2013 8:10:45 GMT -5 @tbird said:

May 5, 2013 17:14:17 GMT -5 @mmc said:

Women (generalizing) don't fight for higher wages.  The also tend to stay loyal to an employer and won't job hop to a higher salary level.

Want to be treated like a man - start thinking like one.

Even when you job hop and fight, you are likely to come up a short compared to men. 

And I think the system that allows this needs to change, not women, thankyouverymuch.

To the OP:

This is an instance where you can't really compare these jobs and make an inference about gender inequality.  Your friends skills were intellectual, and they are of absolutely NO use if she can't speak the language.  For the purposes of the working in the US, she doesn't have an education.

That said - if she learned english, her bilingual skills would be a huge plus in the job market.  Why has she not learned?  That may indicate a personality quirk that also is holding her back - maybe she is resentful of the move to the US, doesn't want to assimilate, wants to insulate herself in a spanish speaking community and ignore the broader US?  That isn't going to land her a professional career in most cases.

The easiest thing to change is the approach of the individual woman. As has been shown, laws can only do so much to force change in the workplace. Blatant discrimination is rare, but subtle discrimination is prevalent and hard to snuff out.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

And I think the system that allows this needs to change, not women, thankyouverymuch

Both need to change.  If women embody the stereotype we continue to reinforce biases.  More women need to break out of the mold so we have more voices in more places.  When we have more voices, there will be more change.

[Deleted]

do you think we just "get" what we want?

we fight for it....we leave at times for it

men tend towards being more aggressive in their pay, because we equate that that to our "success"

instead of going out and bagging the dinosaur for meat, we bag the bigger paycheck, but it is the same thing that drives both events

i have walked away from 2 6 figure jobs....good jobs....that a lot of people in my field would have died to get

i refuse to be undervalued...or taken advantage of....

call it what you want.....but knowing your value...your skills......that is step one

getting your boss to recognize the same thing is the harder part....but the more rewarding one

[hoops902]

::While you have been here for 11 years, you only recently got a BA.::

And in a field (accounting) where a bachelor's is not the way you make good money.  It's having your CPA.

But realistically, she works at a cafeteria, he's a "very good" mechanic.  There's no big mystery why he makes a lot more.  Having a college degree and being "very well educated" doesn't do much good if you have no real job skills that people want.  Particularly if your education suits you to a field where you'd need to know the language and you're unwilling to do so.

::I've been here 11 years, got a Bachelor's degree in accounting, going now for my Master, and only make $38,000 a year::

So you make more than the average person in the US.  Even though you picked an area where there is high competition for jobs and typically the starting pay is low and moves up over time.  And you don't have the basic certification in your area which commands a higher salary. 

I don't think this is the case for all women, but the attitude I get from your post seems roughly "Person A & B have degrees, and they don't make as much as htey think they should, meanwhile this other person does not and makes a lot more money".  Being from another country and referencing "The American Dream", it sounds as if you're under the impression that education level equals value. It doesn't, having a skill which people are willing to pay for equals value. 

::And, honestly, I am getting kind of tired of studying hard, working hard, and not really getting ahead financially.::

Immediately after getting a bachelor's you're making $38,000.  You're making 50% more than your friend working in your old cafeteria.  Maybe the problem is with your spending, because you make plenty to be "getting ahead financially". 

[Phoenix84]

Not having good english and writing skills will diqualify you from most professional jobs in this country.  Even thought your friend is educated, the fact that she cannot read or write english very well gives the impression she is not. 

Your friend's husband works in a field where little or no english is required.

Your cousin just sounds like a hard working guy.

As for you personally, you started out "behind" most Americans because you had to learn the language, culture, and only recently got your BA.  38k isn't bad for a new college graduate.  I made 31k my first year out of college as a technician trainee.  So I would say you're on target relative, if not a bit ahead relative to your education and experience. 

It also becomes harder when discussing immigrants because not only do you have to examine the pay disparities between men and women, but also culteral differences.  I'm not sure if this is the case in Argentenia, but in my cultures women are still considered second class citizens whose place it is to support the man and his career.  The independence and rights women enjoy in this country is generally the exception and not the rule, unfortunately. 

[Phoenix84]

I'd also like to second what tinyspeck is saying.  Women do tend to "play nice" and "play by the rules" and wait to be rewarded for their loyalty and hard work.  Men ask for raises, and then job hop if they don't get what they want.  They don't wait around for their boss to recognize how loyal and hard working they are, they go straight for the throat of bigger paychecks/promotions if that's what they want. 

Ava, in accounting, you haven't even really entered entry level yet.  Having a CPA and a masters is pretty much going to be you're "true" starting point in your chosen profession.  After that, you can take you career into your own hands.  If you aren't happy with the pay or responsibility, ask for more from your employer.  If you don't get it, then search for a new job.  When you interview for a new job, don't be scared to try and negotiate a higher salary. 

I'm not sure what starting CPA's make.  I would imagine around 45-50k.  So once you finish that, I think you can expect a 10-15k raise.  And obviously it will go up from there if you can perform. 

[zdaddy]

Having read a number of govt studies I've become convinced that there is a certain amount of institutionalized sexism where women doing the same work and hours as men get paid less. A lot of it has to do with a work culture that still sees men as "breadwinners" who need to paid more and which unfairly punishes women for taking pregnancy leave. Looking at countries like Sweden that have far more generous family leave policies and better pay equity, improvements could realistically be made.

A harder problem is the "good ole boy" network where wheeling and dealing gets done on the golf course, over cigars and beer at the local pub, and even in strip clubs (yes, I know of one guy in my extended network who takes potential clients to Foxxes.) These kind of informal situations are going to be alot harder for women to break into. Heck, they are tough for guys like me to break into because I hate golf and as a family man I don't want to stay out drinking until midnight several times a week.

But I will acknowlege that in the case of the OP, a foreign woman working in a white collar job is going to be penalized more for poor English language skills than a skilled blue collar worker. Not to pick on Ava's friend, but learning to speak English as a native Spanish speaker should be pretty doable, especially if she's college educated and is literate in her native language. I would cut her a bit more slack if she was from a completely different culture such as Japan or the Middle East where she would not know any Western words and have to learn a new alphabet.

[Deleted]

Men ask for raises, and then job hop if they don't get what they want. They don't wait around for their boss to recognize how loyal and hard working they are, they go straight for the throat of bigger paychecks/promotions if that's what they want.



very well said....

in the corporate world, playing nice doesnt get you the corner office

too many women have issues with being called bitchy

you can be liked, or you can be the boss

"most" of the time, you cant have both

if you want to be "loved", stay home with the kids (goes for men or women)

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Ava.....language skills are immensely important in the US if you are in the educating professions.

We had a physician working with us in the lab when I lived in TX.  He came to the US not speaking a word of English, but in China he was at the top of his profession.  A large part of the reason why he is now not making that kind of money is that his language skills are not very good.  He can write English, but his speaking skills are horrible.  As such, he is stuck in the lab making a fraction of what he made as a physician in China.  His wife came over here (she DID work in a lab in China) and her language skills are MUCH better than his (without a doctorate) and she makes more than he does.  She works in the lab too, but she communicates better.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.  Your friend is educated, but has not advanced her language skills and that is very likely holding her up.  OTOH, her husband is in a profession where needing to speak is not important.  It's not just male vs female, but is more how you market yourself.

As for you, you have a very good starting salary and the potential of going much higher with experience.

[hoops902]

::But I will acknowlege that in the case of the OP, a foreign woman working in a white collar job is going to be penalized more for poor English language skills than a skilled blue collar worker.::

Penalized, but not necessarily unfairly.  Ability to communicate is a key function to many white collar jobs.

::A harder problem is the "good ole boy" network where wheeling and dealing gets done on the golf course, over cigars and beer at the local pub, and even in strip clubs (yes, I know of one guy in my extended network who takes potential clients to Foxxes.) These kind of informal situations are going to be alot harder for women to break into.::

I agree it's harder, but this entire situation is such a miniscule portion of the actual workforce it's essentially irrelevant for most jobs.  The massive majority of white collar workers are not wheeling and dealing on golf courses and pubs.  They're sitting in cubicles.  I think it's a relevant discussion of some of the continuing gender issues in the workplace, but maybe less so in the discussion of "why do males who emigrate to the US have it better than females".

There's probably a good deal of what the OP experiences, which has nothing to do with gender equality in the US, and everything to do with what skillsets people come over with. It's always going to be easier for someone with a skillset that requires no english which they are very good at, than someone with a skillset that requires speaking who refuses to learn the language.  It's probably skewed in that more men come in with those skillsets than women.  I think OP is slightly skewed in her perception that it's about how much money you make.  Part of the appeal of a white collar job is you don't have to do the things blue collar workers do.  In many cases you get to sit in a chair, at a computer, and work in a much more convenient environment.

[Deleted]

My coworker is the poster child for everything wrong with working women today.  Everyone loves her work in her current position and she is near the top of the list for the next business needs promotion because of it.  The problem is, she won't push to be first.  She likes being in her comfortable little box where she doesn't have to risk anything.

This time next year if things don't change, the next in line will be promoted before her.  And she will be 6-8% behind him.

[Phoenix84]

I am curious as to what people think institutional changes need to occur. 

The only issue I can think of is perhaps women are penalized unfairly for pregnancy leave, but even then, if you're running a business, you promote who is around and working.  Are you suggesting that if someone is running a business and person A goes on maternity leave and person B is there the whole time working overtime and contributing to your business that you should promote person A because that's more "fair?"  And how can you make a private business do anything like that?  Are we doing to start requiring ratios of women in management? 

I'm just curious as to what "changes" on a macro scale need to happen in the eyes of people like Rukh. 

[The Captain]

May 6, 2013 13:09:20 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Men ask for raises, and then job hop if they don't get what they want. They don't wait around for their boss to recognize how loyal and hard working they are, they go straight for the throat of bigger paychecks/promotions if that's what they want.



very well said....

in the corporate world, playing nice doesnt get you the corner office

I disagree, I get along fine with others (just ask Rukh ) and got the corner office

too many women have issues with being called bitchy

see my tagline

you can be liked, or you can be the boss

There is truth in this, I am not your friend, I am your boss.

"most" of the time, you cant have both

if you want to be "loved", stay home with the kids (goes for men or women)

There is a lot of truth in the above, but it is a bit too simplistic.

Take the bitch thing for example, I've seen similar behavior described as "assertive" when you are male, and "bitchy" when you are female.

[973beachbum]

In the short term, Goldberg thinks that more men moving into fields with 70% or more women “does not bode well for women.” Yet in the long term, it may be beneficial to women’s salaries. In female-dominated fields wages are generally suppressed, but when professions become more male, wages tend to go up. “Having a greater proportion of men does raise salaries,” she says, “but that’s a slower train.”

www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2012/05/21/a-new-obstacle-for-professional-women-the-glass-escalator/


I don't have the time to find the exact studies.  Someone else is going to have to tonight.  This is the best I could do quickly.    There is mountians of  evidence that shows that professions that are primarily made up of woman are lower paid than predominantly male dominated professions of equal skill and education.  If a profession, say preschool teacher, is almost all woman and men start to make up more of the people in that profession the salaries for that profession will go up.  If it is a predominatly male profession, say engineers, and woman start to become a bigger share of them the salries will go down for that profession.

As a country we have an inherant belief women's work is worth less than men's work.  Until we solve that problem, nothing any individual person does to try and change will fix it. 

[Ava]

Wow! You guys are making me feel better by saying $38,000 right out of school is a good start, and that I will be better off once I get my Master's and CPA.
I'm on track for getting the Master's by  December, and I'll sit for the CPA all throughout 2014.
The reason why I feel financially strapped is not an spending problem; I'm not a spender.
I live alone and pay all expenses by myself; mortgage, utilities, car maintenance, condo fees, etc.
It adds up and it's just my income to support it all. I'm not behind on anything and I have all my needs covered, but I have never in my life here in the States made enough money to have a few "wants" covered. My two luxuries (for which I am grateful) are living on my own and travelling once a year to Argentina to visit. Except for that, my income goes on living expenses.
As for my friend, I feel sorry for her. She started out here with big hopes and then kind of gave up. She went to school with me at first, to learn English. But then she stopped attending.
She was working at McDonald's for horrible wages when I got her the cafeteria job. It's better than what she got before, but now she's kind of stuck there, with no way up.
As for my current job, I'm planning to job hop in a few months. I have no issues with that, and I don't feel I owe my employer more than a fair day of work for fair pay.
I talked to my manager at review time and asked for more responsibilities. He immediately gave me a couple more tasks, so no complaints. I don't feel discriminated at all at my workplace, but I take it as what it is; an entry level job in a state I want to leave before getting my CPA.
So I'll guess eventually I'll be a successful woman. It's just that sometimes it feels to me that men have an easier ride. 

[Deleted]

So I'll guess eventually I'll be a successful woman. It's just that sometimes it feels to me that men have an easier ride.


really?

we have it easier....i didbt see any women working the 80 hr weeks beside me as i came up through the ranks

i didnt see any women be given the hatchet jobs...where you are the guy fingered to fire/layoff half the staff and you are given 10 days to do it going in blind

EVERYONE pays their dues.....


very well said....

in the corporate world, playing nice doesnt get you the corner office

I disagree, I get along fine with others (just ask Rukh ) and got the corner office


true...but you also said that you have distanced yourselves from them    boss/employee relationship

that is what i was referring to...a lot of women have a hard time not being "one of the girls" anymore

women in general build relationships better than men.....and it is harder for them to leave them behind as they advance their career (my perceptions)

you can be liked...and likable...you cannot be their friend.....there is a BIG difference

and getting to the corner office means making those shit/tough decisions.....some of which hurt people

and when you do, you become the "bitch"....it is unfair....

men make those decisions too, and we are lauded for our ability to see the big picture and called tough

[Deleted]

it's because women (in general) are taught to be "nice" from the time we are very young.  "Girls shouldn't fight or behave aggressively",  so they learn to take out their aggression in unproductive ways - like befriending other girls in order to get dirt on them and then use that as emotional blackmail.  It would be better if girls could just slug it out for 10 minutes and then go back to being friends, or attack the problem without attacking the person (or worrying about a cohort perceiving a critique of their performance as a stab at them as a person).

[The Captain]

"so they learn to take out their aggression in unproductive ways - like befriending other girls in order to get dirt on them and then use that as emotional blackmail"

Seriously, you think girls are taught to think this way?

Not in the circles I ran with.  That's just plain mean spirited and we didn't want to be around that kind of negative energy.

[Deleted]

May 7, 2013 8:33:33 GMT -5 The Captain said:

"so they learn to take out their aggression in unproductive ways - like befriending other girls in order to get dirt on them and then use that as emotional blackmail"

Seriously, you think girls are taught to think this way?

Not in the circles I ran with.  That's just plain mean spirited and we didn't want to be around that kind of negative energy.

I had it happen to me multiple times as a kid.  It's not that girls (or at least the ones I went to school with) are taught TO backstab their friends - it's that they're discouraged from showing any outward aggression.  So they have to find a nonviolent way to show aggression and assert power.  I'm not totally pulling this out of my ass either - there are numerous books on this subject.

Mind you, I don't have any friends that do that now nor do I do it.  I agree that it's extremely mean-spirited and childish.

[Deleted]

May 7, 2013 8:31:12 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

it's because women (in general) are taught to be "nice" from the time we are very young.  "Girls shouldn't fight or behave aggressively",  so they learn to take out their aggression in unproductive ways - like befriending other girls in order to get dirt on them and then use that as emotional blackmail.  It would be better if girls could just slug it out for 10 minutes and then go back to being friends, or attack the problem without attacking the person (or worrying about a cohort perceiving a critique of their performance as a stab at them as a person).

actually this makes a lot of sense

one of the few fist fights i ever was in, was a doozy

the dude kicked my ass....but i got my licks in and he looked almost as bad

we later became pretty damn good friends.....

all over a girl...of course....lol

[The Captain]

May 7, 2013 8:39:15 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

May 7, 2013 8:33:33 GMT -5 The Captain said:

"so they learn to take out their aggression in unproductive ways - like befriending other girls in order to get dirt on them and then use that as emotional blackmail"

Seriously, you think girls are taught to think this way?

Not in the circles I ran with.  That's just plain mean spirited and we didn't want to be around that kind of negative energy.

I had it happen to me multiple times as a kid.  It's not that girls (or at least the ones I went to school with) are taught TO backstab their friends - it's that they're discouraged from showing any outward aggression.  So they have to find a nonviolent way to show aggression and assert power.  I'm not totally pulling this out of my ass either - there are numerous books on this subject.

Mind you, I don't have any friends that do that now nor do I do it.  I agree that it's extremely mean-spirited and childish.

WOW.  All I can say is I'm sorry you went through that as a kid. 

For me, childhood sucked big time.  I was lucky that I had a close group of friends who never backstabbed for any reason (sounds like I need to appreciate it much more than I do, as it sounds like it may not be all that common).

The mean girls were pretty direct about, well, being mean.  They would pick on you for being fat, having acne, not the right hair, clothes, jewlery etc but at least there was no fake friendships just to turn on you later on.

Course the crowd I hung with was not above getting into physical fights if that was what was needed, so maybe that's how we got our aggression out?

[hoops902]

::If it is a predominatly male profession, say engineers, and woman start to become a bigger share of them the salries will go down for that profession.::

Of course it does, and it has nothing to do with how society values one gender's work over the other.  It's pretty well-established that women in general are far more likely to simply take the money they are given rather than fight for more.  So any area that gains more women as a proportion is going ot see the average pay fall as the influx of workers agrees to just take what is offered to them.  And any area where there is an influx of men who in general demand more and negotiate salary is going to see the average go up.  You're confusing value with compensation.  I might value person A much more than person B, but i person A will take $1, and person B will only take $2...person A might be more valued and being compensated at half the rate of person B.

[zdaddy]

May 6, 2013 15:53:18 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

::But I will acknowlege that in the case of the OP, a foreign woman working in a white collar job is going to be penalized more for poor English language skills than a skilled blue collar worker.::

Penalized, but not necessarily unfairly.  Ability to communicate is a key function to many white collar jobs.

::A harder problem is the "good ole boy" network where wheeling and dealing gets done on the golf course, over cigars and beer at the local pub, and even in strip clubs (yes, I know of one guy in my extended network who takes potential clients to Foxxes.) These kind of informal situations are going to be alot harder for women to break into.::

I agree it's harder, but this entire situation is such a miniscule portion of the actual workforce it's essentially irrelevant for most jobs.  The massive majority of white collar workers are not wheeling and dealing on golf courses and pubs.  They're sitting in cubicles.  I think it's a relevant discussion of some of the continuing gender issues in the workplace, but maybe less so in the discussion of "why do males who emigrate to the US have it better than females".

There's probably a good deal of what the OP experiences, which has nothing to do with gender equality in the US, and everything to do with what skillsets people come over with. It's always going to be easier for someone with a skillset that requires no english which they are very good at, than someone with a skillset that requires speaking who refuses to learn the language.  It's probably skewed in that more men come in with those skillsets than women.  I think OP is slightly skewed in her perception that it's about how much money you make.  Part of the appeal of a white collar job is you don't have to do the things blue collar workers do.  In many cases you get to sit in a chair, at a computer, and work in a much more convenient environment.

Hoops, while I agree with you that the average cubicle dweller doesn't need to worry about after-hours meetings over beers and the links, I've seen evidence that millionaire businessowners, highly paid salespeople, lobbyists, lawyers, etc. do rely on that sort of networking to stay successful. I have some friends who belong to the local exclusive country club in town and invite me from time to time. It's a completely different world that most middle class workers have no idea about. You may not have to do this sort of networking to get into a decent paying job, but more and more I'm becoming convinced that it really helps to get you to the top.

[michelyn8]

I'm not a high level employee by any means but I have to ask if these studies and surveys include benefits in these calculations.  I'm thinking about my own personal path the last 20 years and for me, working for a company/boss who wasn't going to give me a hard time when I needed to leave early or miss a day for a sick child and had good insurance benefits was worth taking a salary that was lower than I could make in a company with a stricter environment and fewer benefits. 

I also know that for me personally, I hate to "wheel and deal" when shopping so it makes sense that I don't do it when negotiating salary.  Job hunting for me works the same as shopping for a car.  I decide what I'm looking for, what is an acceptable price range, and then I don't pay any more than that.  Same with jobs - I determine the types of duties, schedule, benefits, etc. I want, determine a salary range that I think should cover that and meet my needs and then go from there.  Jobs that I know will pay less/have few benefits, I don't bother with.  Jobs that pay well but have duties I don't like or don't care to learn, I pass over. 

But also you'd have to consider I'm not a career driven person.  I never wanted to work a "career", just a job to help support my family.  However, life had other plans for me and instead of beings a SAHP and working part-time after they started school, I've had to work full-time since they were babies and will be for many more years.

To the OP: I agree that your friend is crippled job wise by her unwillingness to learn English.  I can see so much potential to transfer her education and skills to a good job if she would just take the time to do that.  But until she takes that step, she really has no right to complain about not achieving the American Dream.  The American Dream is different for everyone but the one common thread for every person who achieves it is focus and hard work.  Its not handed to you, you have to go out and make it happen.